Wh40k 10th Edition Chaos Space Marines Index

[Urauloth]

Looking at the DG index first, I was going to say that merging cultist weapons is an inelegant but viable solution to the problem of not getting enough autoguns for a whole unit in the cultist warband box... but in the CSM index it isn't like that? Here we have firearms and pistols split up again. Did they decide that merged weapon profiles would be too strong with Dark Pacts and Apostle leadership maybe?

[DarkChaplain]

Surprised Abaddon can join Legionaries but not Chosen. Almost all characters can join both, unless they're wearing terminator plate. Which Abaddon does, but that doesn't stop him from joining regular Legion dudes.

[Guest]

Interested in people's opinions of the Raptor and Warp Talon special abilities compared to one another. Raptors give -1 to battle-shock and leadership tests for all enemies within 6", and force battle-shock tests within engagement range at the start of the fight phase. Meanwhile, Warp Talons force Desperate Escape tests on enemies that fall back from them, at -1 if they're battle-shocked.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Lucius_The_Temporary

[Boc]

1 hour ago, Lucius_The_Temporary said:

Interested in people's opinions of the Raptor and Warp Talon special abilities compared to one another.

I'm mainly just a little salty that it's pretty much forced to use one of the other due to leader limitations. Lack of additional buffs outside of a (who knows the cost) Haarken feels like a glaring oversight. 

 

As far as which I'd use, it comes down to intended targets. Raptors have versatility based on loadouts, warp talons are purely melee destruction. Horde armies warp talons, MEQ raptors likely for me. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Boc said:

I'm mainly just a little salty that it's pretty much forced to use one of the other due to leader limitations. Lack of additional buffs outside of a (who knows the cost) Haarken feels like a glaring oversight.

I might have misinterpreted the above but Haarken can only lead raptors, not WTs, which to my mind pushes WTs out of the conversation entirely if you're taking Haarken.

[Craig]

I've just noticed the penalty to hit for power fists and other heavy melee weapons (aside from chain fists) has gone in this edition. This may affect how I equip my models now.

[Cpt.Danjou]

I am pretty sure it is a printing error, but Havoc Autocannons (heavy) in a legionaries unit is 3+ to hit, which is awesome. :)

 

Cpr. Danjou

[Doctor Perils]

So a god-marked squad making a Dark Pact within 6" of a helbrute gets Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits 1 on an unmodified roll of 5+? Sweet! I still have to get on with the one that I started painting a year ago, this might help motivate me

[Doomchild]

43 minutes ago, Cpt.Danjou said:

I am pretty sure it is a printing error, but Havoc Autocannons (heavy) in a legionaries unit is 3+ to hit, which is awesome. :)

 

Cpr. Danjou

 

Havoc Autocannons aren't heavy, same for heavy bolter and missile launcher, every weapon they have has 3+ BS. since Heavy changed from -1 to hit if you moved to +1 to hit if you remained stationary, giving their weapons the heavy rule would contradict their stabilization talons rule.

[Cpt.Danjou]

6 minutes ago, Doomchild said:

 

Havoc Autocannons aren't heavy, same for heavy bolter and missile launcher, every weapon they have has 3+ BS. since Heavy changed from -1 to hit if you moved to +1 to hit if you remained stationary, giving their weapons the heavy rule would contradict their stabilization talons rule.

Except that in the unit datasheet for Legionaries the Havoc Autocannon has the rule Heavy just like the reaper autocannon. So they hit for 2+ when standing still with the Havoc one, and not the Reaper one. I am not talking about the unit of Havocs that hit on 3+ all the time. That is why I assume it is an error.

 

Cpt. Danjou

[Nephaston]

9 minutes ago, Doomchild said:

 

Havoc Autocannons aren't heavy, same for heavy bolter and missile launcher, every weapon they have has 3+ BS. since Heavy changed from -1 to hit if you moved to +1 to hit if you remained stationary, giving their weapons the heavy rule would contradict their stabilization talons rule.

Havoc Autocannons on Legionaries do indeed have [Heavy] along with a BS of 3+.

[Doomchild]

8 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

Havoc Autocannons on Legionaries do indeed have [Heavy] along with a BS of 3+.

 

10 minutes ago, Cpt.Danjou said:

Except that in the unit datasheet for Legionaries the Havoc Autocannon has the rule Heavy just like the reaper autocannon. So they hit for 2+ when standing still with the Havoc one, and not the Reaper one. I am not talking about the unit of Havocs that hit on 3+ all the time. That is why I assume it is an error.

 

Cpt. Danjou

 

oh, I missed that... yeah, that looks like an error.

[Dam13n]

Of the armies I have, this index actually looks to be the best overall.  I'm not thrilled about the Chosen entry (as my old squads used special weapons, not melee weapons) and the Terminators are a bit underwhelming (but I almost never used them before, so not an issue).

 

Where I used to use mixed Marks of Chaos in my lists before, I think Undivided may be the way to go now.  The ability doesn't require utilising a Dark Pact in order to work, unlike the other Marks.  Although that does irk me somewhat, as I really dislike the over-proliferation of re-rolls in 40k that have filtered in over 8th and 9th.

 

The Legionnaires loadout options would require me to alter how I used to set up my old Chaos Marines units.  I always used to go with 10 men, 2 special weapons (either Plasma Guns or Meltaguns).  That isn't possible any more, which is a bit of a shame.  But, given the rest of the changes, I think 10 men with 1 Plasma Gun and 1 Autocannon may be the way to go, at least assuming they don't amend the Autocannon profile down the line.

 

But, given the armies I have, this looks like the best index thus far for me.  The Space Wolves one is awful and I don't yet have any anti-tank for my Blood Angels.  So I may have to think about making some updates to my old models.  My Chosen now need melee weapons, and I may need to alter a few other models here and there, but that's OK.  Especially as they're Iron Warriors, so painting up a few arms and weapons should be quick and fun (gunmetal, brass, and hazard stripes... done!)

 

I may even adapt my Wolves to use this index as well.  They're modelled as 13th Company, so that shouldn't be a problem.  Plus, they're better modelled and painted than my old Iron Warriors.  Hmmm, decisions, decisions...

Edited June 15, 2023 by Dam13n
Strike through of incorrect information. I should have RTBRB. :D

[Doctor Perils]

2 hours ago, Dam13n said:

Where I used to use mixed Marks of Chaos in my lists before, I think Undivided may be the way to go now.  The ability doesn't require utilising a Dark Pact in order to work, unlike the other Marks.

It still does from my reading of it: in the intro paragraph it says units gain the following ability _in the phase they use a Dark pact_

 

[Saadjor]

2 hours ago, Dam13n said:

Where I used to use mixed Marks of Chaos in my lists before, I think Undivided may be the way to go now.  The ability doesn't require utilising a Dark Pact in order to work, unlike the other Marks.  Although that does irk me somewhat, as I really dislike the over-proliferation of re-rolls in 40k that have filtered in over 8th and 9th.

 

Please be aware that the Undivided affect also requires you to make a Pact before becoming active.

 

The index states this at the end of the text block above the Mark effects. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Saadjor
Spelling is hard

[Dam13n]

Just re-read it now, I'd obviously glossed over that part while reading it earlier.

[Mallios]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:43 PM, acrozatarim said:

I've seen people feeling a bit down on the Lord Discordant, and not unreasonably so, but it's worth pointing out that the Talisman of Burning Blood goes really nicely on him, because the +d3 Strength and Attacks goes on every melee weapon and he has 2 Extra Attacks weapons along with his glaive - including the Anti-Vehicle 2+ techno-virus injector - so it can crank up his melee output by up to 9 extra attacks if you get lucky.

Weapons with Extra Attacks can't gain attacks, tho, so out would only work on the chainglaive.

[Kaiju Soze]

2 minutes ago, Mallios said:

Weapons with Extra Attacks can't gain attacks, tho, so out would only work on the chainglaive.

But they do still get the +d3 Str.

[acrozatarim]

3 minutes ago, Mallios said:

Weapons with Extra Attacks can't gain attacks, tho, so out would only work on the chainglaive.

 

Ah, damn, missed that. It's still decent for pushing the chainglaive up past a key Str break-point, so you'll wound a Land Raider on a 4+ on the charge, but not nearly as great as I thought - oh well!

 

That said, it looks like he also pairs nicely with the Elixir.

[Medicinal Carrots]

A bit of a repost and update/expansion from my post in the preview thread on Dark Pacts:

 

For anyone with a 6+ Ld, without a reroll, you'll average ~ .56 wounds per activation. With an icon or other reroll (e.g. Abaddon), it's ~ .15 per activation.

Without a reroll, that's 1 wound suffered every 1.8 activations. One dead marine every 3.6 activations. One dead terminator every 5.4 activations

With a reroll, it's 1 wound every 6.48 activations. One dead marine every 12.96 activations. And One dead terminator every 19.44 activations

 

For 7+ LD, without a reroll, ~.83 wounds per activation, or ~ .35 with a reroll.

Without a reroll, 1 wound/dead cultist every 1.2 activations, or every 2.88 activations with a reroll

 

If you're pacting for sustained hits and hitting on 3s, let's compare Undivided to Nurgle/Slaneesh:

Undivided's rerolling 1s will average you about a 97% hit rate (every 36 shots you make, you will average 35 hits)

Crit hits on 5+ will average you a 100% hit rate (36 shots will average you 36 hits)

 

If you are going for lethal hits and hitting on 3s, which one's best is going to depend on what you wound on. Not going into the full numbers, but if you'd normally wound on 2+ or 3+, undivided is better. If you'd normally wound on 4+, 5+, or 6+ (i.e. the targets you might want to use lethal hits against), then Khorne/Tzeentch are better

 

Undivided is good if you might be pacting for sustained hits or lethal hits on alternate activations, if the unit is fairly balanced shooting and melee, or if you need it for a specific character, strat, or enhancement. Otherwise, the math says get off the fence and pick a god.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Medicinal Carrots

[Silas7]

On 6/13/2023 at 7:03 AM, TrawlingCleaner said:

Terminators are great, although don't really benefit form Abaddon's Reroll hits ability

 

Oblits can go up to 4 models in the unit and have a once per game Indirect option. They're going to be a problem unit, calling it now

• Undivided marks for terminators are a waste as they already get re-rolls when pacting
• Oblits are slow at 4'' and only 24'' ranged guns, so make sure you deep strike mid board or on top of your primary target
• Raptors are faster Reivers

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Silas7

[Silas7]

15 hours ago, Doctor Perils said:

So a god-marked squad making a Dark Pact within 6" of a helbrute gets Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits 1 on an unmodified roll of 5+? Sweet! I still have to get on with the one that I started painting a year ago, this might help motivate me

 

Park a Warpsmith and Havocs with a Helbrute and you've got a nice little firebase with some counter punch.

[Nephaston]

4 hours ago, Medicinal Carrots said:

Undivided is good if you might be pacting for sustained hits or lethal hits on alternate activations, if the unit is fairly balanced shooting and melee, or if you need it for a specific character, strat, or enhancement. Otherwise, the math says get off the fence and pick a god.

Never. Fence Sittaz 4 lyf. As the Urizen intended. 420 praise it.

[Toldavf]

Noctolith shooting castle of nurgle.

4+ invun and sustained hits on a 5+ for the vindicators its covering.

[Guest]

If you'll excuse the naive theorycrafting of a noob, Tranceweaver-led Daemonettes and Noise Marines seem like a fun Slaaneshi combo while EC players still have to roleplay our dearly departed subfaction. Noise Marines force a battle-shock test, and if it fails, your Daemonette squad (who are deepstriking with +1 to charge) get full rerolls. Worth considering?