Wh40k 10th Edition Aeldari Index

[Emperor Ming]

Are people gonna take bs4 wraithlords?

 

A no from me

 

 

[prava]

The ELDAR seem so OP it isn't even funny. War walkers, Wraithkinght / lord / etc seem bonkers. Yvrainee if not too expensive is also insanity.

 

Not sure who designed them but wholy hell...

[Iron Lord]

It's a bit annoying that the Autarch on the previous codex cover is once again not legal (unless you treat his mandiblaster helmet as just a regular helmet, that is). 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Iron Lord

[Kallas]

25 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Are people gonna take bs4 wraithlords?

I thought they were looking great, then I noticed WS/BS4+ and got sad. I think they're...ok. With Battle Host they still have some ok value with Bright Lances/Missile Launchers and Flamers, plus the Ghostglaive is fine, and they can be accompanied by a Spiritseer, if you want to give it +1 to hit for however many points it is! 

 

To be fair, you could give the Spiritseer The Weeping Stones, so if the Wraithlord destroys an enemy unit you get 2 Fate Dice! Or Fate's Messenger for an auto-6 on one hit/wound/save per turn. So if it's not too expensive a combo, there's so value there.

 

Also, the Wraithknight looks very solid, especially with Fate Dice and the Heavy Wraithcannon! HWC and Ghostglaive will be very nice, though losing the Scattershield could be bad (it's still T12, -1D, 18W at Sv2+, so pretty resilient)

[Commissar Yossarian]

I have to say there is a certain level of comfort in GW's consistency in producing broken elf nonsense.

Points costs may help, but in the face of what's laid out and the monstrous consistency of the Index I am looking forward to saving a lot of time by the FAQ clarifying that, yes the Eldar player does win after agreeing to play, and you only are setting up your models because they also get to take one of them home for playing Eldar.

 

The small mercy is also in keeping with GW behaviour to make it work/be unstoppable will mean buys lots of new units that didn't get play before....

 

Teasing aside, my real gripe with this is how starkly this Index goes against the stated philosophy of 10th ed. While most of the game is now designed around units degrading over a couple of rounds, and it generally being less of an all or nothing combat style, Eldar completely go against this.

They can both force huge numbers of mortals though circumventing other factions 'toughness', and their supposed downside of being very fragile (lots of T3 1W models) just isn't with damn near universal Invul saves for everything and fate dice. 

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that Eldar deployments are going to be Oups! all Avatar & Wave Serpents and then a lovely choice between Wraithknights, Night Spinners, or possibly Wraithlords with spirit seer.

 

A secondary note of 'hilarity' the Wraithknight's Heavy Wraithcannon can, if one it willing to spend the fate dice, be one of the most reliable anti-horde weapon in the game. 

[Karhedron]

30 minutes ago, prava said:

The ELDAR seem so OP it isn't even funny. War walkers, Wraithkinght / lord / etc seem bonkers. Yvrainee if not too expensive is also insanity.

 

War Walkers can only be taken singly meaning a maximum of 3, no squadrons anymore.

 

Wraithknight is considerably more fragile than their Imperial counterparts and no longer have a built-in Invulnerable save. If you want an Invuln, you have to drop one of the guns.

 

Wraithlords are WS/BS 4+. If you want to get them back to 3+, you need to attach a Spiritseer as babysitter.

 

Yvraine is decent but is limited by the units she can be attached to. If you want to kill her, you only need to chew through 10 T3 wounds, not a big ask.

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, Commissar Yossarian said:

A secondary note of 'hilarity' the Wraithknight's Heavy Wraithcannon can, if one it willing to spend the fate dice, be one of the most reliable anti-horde weapon in the game. 

Yeah, Devastating Wounds on multi-damage weapons is very silly - and the Fate Dice mechanic makes it way worse.

[Commissar Yossarian]

1 minute ago, Kallas said:

I thought they were looking great, then I noticed WS/BS4+ and got sad. I think they're...ok. With Battle Host they still have some ok value with Bright Lances/Missile Launchers and Flamers, plus the Ghostglaive is fine, and they can be accompanied by a Spiritseer, if you want to give it +1 to hit for however many points it is! 

 

To be fair, you could give the Spiritseer The Weeping Stones, so if the Wraithlord destroys an enemy unit you get 2 Fate Dice! Or Fate's Messenger for an auto-6 on one hit/wound/save per turn. So if it's not too expensive a combo, there's so value there.

 

Also, the Wraithknight looks very solid, especially with Fate Dice and the Heavy Wraithcannon! HWC and Ghostglaive will be very nice, though losing the Scattershield could be bad (it's still T12, -1D, 18W at Sv2+, so pretty resilient)

Oh my sweet summer children.

 

The real question is not would you take a wraithlord, but why you would not take a wraithlord and spirit seer? Not only do you get a +1 to hit, but she brings a 4+ invulnerable save to the party. Who doesn't want to laugh in Fate dice when the enemy fires a titan killing weapon into your wraithlord and the tiny elf tanks the shot through hollywood levels of plot armour. This combination forces your opponent into attempting to chip damage the wraithlord so it must take the next shots (which can still use fate dice/ Fate's Messenger up to -4 AP or if in cover -5 AP) or just fire big guns into the unit hoping that you forget about your pre-allocated Fate Dice pool. On top of all this the lethal hits makes a cheaper Shuriken only version much more impactful. 

[Commissar Yossarian]

10 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Yeah, Devastating Wounds on multi-damage weapons is very silly - and the Fate Dice mechanic makes it way worse.

Don't forget blast. On a 20 man unit you're looking at 4+d3 attacks. With a re-roll to hi and re-roll wound baked in for every attack your odds of naturally procing a critical wound actually isn't that bad...

[Slips]

Im surprised Eldar are still getting this much flak when Deathwatch had to get FAQ'd PRE-EDITION RELEASE to prevent them from just drowning an opponent in 70-90MWs in one turn.

[Zoatibix]

48 minutes ago, Slips said:

Im surprised Eldar are still getting this much flak when Deathwatch had to get FAQ'd PRE-EDITION RELEASE to prevent them from just drowning an opponent in 70-90MWs in one turn.

Not to sound trite but I think partly that they aren’t Marines. 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Commissar Yossarian said:

The real question is not would you take a wraithlord, but why you would not take a wraithlord and spirit seer? Not only do you get a +1 to hit, but she brings a 4+ invulnerable save to the party.

Because the Spiritseer is a Character, so can't have wounds allocated to them unless they're Precision.

[prava]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

War Walkers can only be taken singly meaning a maximum of 3, no squadrons anymore.

 

Wraithknight is considerably more fragile than their Imperial counterparts and no longer have a built-in Invulnerable save. If you want an Invuln, you have to drop one of the guns.

 

Wraithlords are WS/BS 4+. If you want to get them back to 3+, you need to attach a Spiritseer as babysitter.

 

Yvraine is decent but is limited by the units she can be attached to. If you want to kill her, you only need to chew through 10 T3 wounds, not a big ask.

 

Just because War Walkers are single model units doesn't make them less strong. They hit hard and are extremely hard to shift. 4++ and -1 to wound, together, I don't understand.

 

How is Wraithknight more fragile than their imperial counterparts? 2+ save on it is bonkers. Remember that most Antitank weapons are AP4... meaning you can still use a Fate dice of a 6 to save its armour save. And lets not talk about the ranged firepower... its bonkers good, much, MUCH better than anything the (Imperial / Chaos) Knights have. Give it some Fate dice (and you can guarantee 6's with some characters here and there) and it kills whatever you want, even on overwatch. It is so broken I don't understand how they made it so. It better be 700+ points or else it auto-wins you the game.

 

Lastly: WS/BS4+ is not that important when you have 1 hit and wound reroll per unit. And spiritseers on wraith-units is mandatory simply because it reanimates 2 per turn.

 

Yvraine... I meant the goddess, my fault.

[Kilcin]

27 minutes ago, prava said:

 

Just because War Walkers are single model units doesn't make them less strong. They hit hard and are extremely hard to shift. 4++ and -1 to wound, together, I don't understand.

 

How is Wraithknight more fragile than their imperial counterparts? 2+ save on it is bonkers. Remember that most Antitank weapons are AP4... meaning you can still use a Fate dice of a 6 to save its armour save. And lets not talk about the ranged firepower... its bonkers good, much, MUCH better than anything the (Imperial / Chaos) Knights have. Give it some Fate dice (and you can guarantee 6's with some characters here and there) and it kills whatever you want, even on overwatch. It is so broken I don't understand how they made it so. It better be 700+ points or else it auto-wins you the game.

 

Lastly: WS/BS4+ is not that important when you have 1 hit and wound reroll per unit. And spiritseers on wraith-units is mandatory simply because it reanimates 2 per turn.

 

Yvraine... I meant the goddess, my fault.

I'm sorry, where are you getting Spiritseers reanimating 2 a turn?
"Tears of Isha (Psychic): While this model is leading a unit, in
the Command phase, you can return 1 destroyed Bodyguard
model to that unit."

[Shield-Captain]

Some people seem to believe that fate dice are an infinite resource. An Eldar player will more than likely run out at some point. 

[sairence]

14 minutes ago, Shield-Captain said:

Some people seem to believe that fate dice are an infinite resource. An Eldar player will more than likely run out at some point. 

Yeah, once everyone else is dead. :D

 

I don't think starting with 12-15 dice, a good chunk of which can be 6s, with multiple ways to gain additional ones during the game makes them all that scarce. Especially when some well-placed ones on multi-damage devastating wound units can cripple or delete important enemy units with next to no counterplay.

 

Like don't get me wrong, the fact that stuff like D-cannons can't be squadroned is nice to see. But 3 of them have the potential for mad nonsense either way. And it's not like they're the only source of that combo.

 

Just make it so that fate dice can't proc devastating wounds, and you eliminate most of the issues. It'll still be a powerful mechanic that gives you heaps of reliability, but it'll be a lot less feels bad.

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

We're in agreement on Devastating Wounds though:

A) It should have to be a natural roll

B) It should never combo with Anti

[Urkh]

Guardians being capped at 10 instead of 20 makes me a bit sad. I guess I'll just have three 10 man squads of defenders?

[Slips]

2 hours ago, Zoatibix said:

Not to sound trite but I think partly that they aren’t Marines. 

Oh true! if this were an imperial faction it would have gotten NONE of the grief! My bad for forgetting that!

[Karhedron]

 

 

I think people are over-estimating the potential of Fate Dice. On average you will get 2-3 6s (which are the magic number for trigger Mortals). If you have Guard Defenders on an Objective you might get another 6 over the course of the game. If you take reroll enhancement, you will average 1 more. So you will get maybe 4 or 5 over the course of a game. Now if you are spending it on a D-Cannon shot every turn, that will not leave any for making lucky saving throws.

 

Now I know Farseers can also turn 1 FD into a 6 but the Farseer, Defenders and psyker enhancement are all based on T3 units. If your opponent wants to, it is not hard to shut down those sources of extra FD generation. Guardian Defenders only generate FDs on an Objective so a canny opponent will either shoot or assault them off that Objective,

 

1 hour ago, prava said:

How is Wraithknight more fragile than their imperial counterparts? 2+ save on it is bonkers. Remember that most Antitank weapons are AP4... meaning you can still use a Fate dice of a 6 to save its armour save. And lets not talk about the ranged firepower... its bonkers good, much, MUCH better than anything the (Imperial / Chaos) Knights have. Give it some Fate dice (and you can guarantee 6's with some characters here and there) and it kills want, even on overwatch.

 

The Wraithknight is only 18 Wounds. Questoris get 22 and Dominus get 24. Imperial Knights get a 5++ Invulnerable Ion Shield save against shooting. Imperial Knights get a 6+++ FNP as standard with the option to improve that to a 5+++ FNP by either killing the enemy Warlord or taking the enemy's home Objective (hard but not impossible). The 3 main Questoris builds all have a large primary gun, a dedicated melee weapon and an Invulnerable save. A Wraithknight can only ever have 2 of those at best.

 

You are overestimating the number of 6s an Eldar player is going to have at their disposal over the course of the game. Yes they do have the potential to create a strong alpha strike if the Eldar player burns several in the first turn but that will leave them hurting for them in later turns. By contrast, Oath of Moment and Code Chivalric keep working every single turn.

 

1 hour ago, prava said:

And spiritseers on wraith-units is mandatory simply because it reanimates 2 per turn.

 

 

Spiritseers can only bring back 1 Wraithguard/blade per turn not 2. Also they cannot use the Tears of Isha on a Wraithlord. If the Wraithlord gets killed then the Spiritseer is no longer part of a Bodyguard unit so it cannot do a resurrection.

 

 

[Lord Marshal]

2 hours ago, Zoatibix said:

Not to sound trite but I think partly that they aren’t Marines. 

 

I think it's also because most of the Index Cards for Eldar have been floating about for a week or so, the Fate Dice mechanic even longer, meaning people had a lot longer to digest the potential power.

 

Whereas the Deathwatch Strat only appeared a couple of days ago I believe? 

[Kallas]

9 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

Whereas the Deathwatch Strat only appeared a couple of days ago I believe? 

Also worth noting that the Deathwatch strat was capable of pumping out like 60+ MW per turn (vs Infantry, but still). The D-Cannons are/were capable of massive damage, but it requires a limited resource (Fate Dice, specifically 6s) and now we know that Support Weapons are Unit Size: 1, so it's definitely more limited in scope than it was assumed it possibly could be.

 

DCs are still strong, but with limited FD and limited unit sizes, they are a lot less obnoxious. I do have to wonder if GW just quietly changed the unit size before the Index dropped, since it has the following:

Spoiler

"Any number of models can each have their shadow weaver replaced with one of the following:"

To me that implies they used to be 1-3. Either they caught the interaction earlier (good) and didn't update the language, or possibly they edited it due to the backlash (ok, but not great, and a weak change instead of fixing the problem: DW with guaranteed 6s).

[sandrorect]

6 hours ago, Kallas said:

Man I was so disappointed seeing that. Even the Skyrunner can only join Windriders.

 

I'm not sure how to feel about the Support Weapons, War Walkers and Vypers going down to units of 1 only. The D-Cannons were OP, but it was Devastating Wounds that did it; and War Walkers are a bit too tough, but points could at least fix that; Vypers, not sure why they needed to be reduced in volume. All three of these feel like a bit of a poke in the eye to people with more than 3 - screw you, not allowed to field more!

 

First pass through Eldar look fine with some decent units and with some possibly strong plays, but quite a lot of the 10e things (ie, Leaders) just feels needlessly restrictive and clunky.

 

Before you need put 3 Vipers (or support weapon, or Leman Russ) because if you choose something not only reduce your points but also your slots: if you only have 3 fast attack slots, pick a Viper means you can only take 2 of the other fast attacks options.

 

In 10Th this is not a problem. Whit only the points as limit factor means that you can put 3 support weapon, and 3 war walkers, and 3 Falcons, and 3 Nigth spinners...

 

If the support weapons and war walkers can go in groups of 3 means that ypu can put 9 support weapons, 9 War walkers and also 3 nigth spinners if the points as only limit. 

 

Spam units is a problem on all wargames, and if you don´t put limits the only weapon you have to avoid spaming is to make the units so expensive that the players don´t want to do that but doing that also means that the units become bad because are more expensive.

[Kallas]

16 minutes ago, sandrorect said:

In 10Th this is not a problem.

It is a problem if you want 4 Vypers. 

[Captain Idaho]

The Deathwatch issue was resolved pretty quickly. Certainly before I found out about, finished work and got home to post about it! If I had time, I would have called it astonishing poor. 

 

Bit strange to say that folk aren't complaining about something that GW already fixed and removed. Why would we?

 

Besides, 2 wrongs don't make a right.