Wh40k 10th Edition Munitorum Field Manual (Points)

[Blurf]

2 hours ago, Khornestar said:

Not really something to be right or wrong about, ultimately. I just kinda accept what it is and have fun with it. My enjoyment doesn’t depend on being consistent with how things were in the past, I like adapting and trying different things within a new system.

 

Doesn't mean I don’t understand why other people are unhappy with it, but for me being adaptable is key. 

How do you adapt to your units being completely unplayable?

 

I've been harping on this, but a Retributor Squad is 10pts MORE expensive than a Devastator Squad. (Devastator squads aren't even good)

Dominions are 10pts MORE expensive than a Desolator Squad.

Repentia are 150pts with no save in an edition where indirect fire is everywhere.

Battle Sisters are 110pts when space marines have MULTIPLE UNITS capable of wiping out the whole squad in one turn that are roughly the same price.

Sacresants are 130pts despite being made of tissue paper and doing less than 1 wound to a marine per model.

The Castigator is the same price as the marine Gladiator tanks despite worse stats, worse guns, and a worse faction ability.

Immolators are 30pts more expensive than razorbacks for just 1 toughness and 1 wound. (Razorbacks aren't even good)

Paragon Warsuits are 240pts for 3 despite having roughly the same defensive stats as terminators.

A canoness is 60pts compared to a Marine captain at 80 and a Librarian at 75.

The exorcist is 20pts more expensive than a Desolation Squad despite the Desolation squad being much more efficient (and doing significantly more damage than Conflagration rockets).

Zephyrim are 140pt CQC unit that does less damage in melee than a 120pt Desolation squad units does with indirect fire from 48" away.

Novitiates are 90pts, but they can't take any of their upgrades (ANY OF THEM) without sacrificing melee attacks. They should be 60-70.

 

This is basically the scene in Xman First class where Kevin Bacon kills the 'adapt to survive' guy. We're overloaded beyond our ability to compensate by how terrible we are.

[Blurf]

45 minutes ago, Rain said:

Right, exactly. I would never play in a tournament, if I want a sweaty tactical battle fix, I’ll just play COH. That said, list building (beyond just X of this unit, Y of this unit), tradeoffs, and at least getting some compensating points for taking a cooler looking option over the “best” are all missed features.

 

Is it the end of the world? No. Does it make the whole of the hobby “feel” worse, and leave a sour taste, especially with *how* this has been implemented with a kind of semantic slight of hand? Absolutely. Oh well, it is what it is. Until it isn’t.

If you don't play tournaments, why do you even care? You can use hello kitty figures as models and MonPoc rules in your 40k games if you want.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm going to say something that some folk seen to think is a wrong think - it's ok to play tournaments and like events.

 

There I said it.

 

There's been this odd opinion I've noticed creep in, that GW sending your stuff to legends is ok because it only hurts tournament players. Or tournament players caring about granularity and variable unit sizes should be disregarded. 

 

Of course, folk who care about those things aren't all tournament players, even the majority of them like.

 

Anyway, it's nonsense. Tournaments and events are good fun and there's plenty of people who enjoy them. "Tournaments" doesn't even mean just one thing, as theme, casual players and there for the fun players can all enjoy a tournament too.

[Bryan Blaire]

The “no variable squad sizes” is ridiculous to everyone, not just tourney players.  There are now squad structures you just can’t transport, or space allocation that will be wasted.  That’s just the start…

 

There is no “tourney only impacts” arguments here (and I’m one of the first to pan “competitive play” for this game around here) - it impacts all players, regardless of how you wanted to play.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Rain]

31 minutes ago, Blurf said:

If you don't play tournaments, why do you even care? You can use hello kitty figures as models and MonPoc rules in your 40k games if you want.

Because most opponents in pickup games stick to WYSIWYG to greater or lesser degrees. So, if a dude looks like he has a bolt pistol, it’s a bolt pistol, not a plasma pistol, even if the plasma pistol is a free option, and is better in every way. Also because list building itself was fun for me, and now it’s effectively gutted. Not the end of the world, as I said, but it’s a needless kick in the melta bombs to people with existing models.

[Minuros]

I will give it a shot but I’m not really hyped for 10th. I have Death Guard and Craftworld Eldar armies so I’m on both sides of the power spectrum. You can really see that GW did not give the same love for all armies.

Was thinking of starting a leagues of votann army but probably won’t anymore. 40k for me is more about painting than actually playing the game these days. 

[tzeentch9]

Maybe just work out the points per model, add 5pts for any additions in war gear or weapons to the unit, ie per special or heavy weapon you take. That seems like an easy, if imperfect fix

[Bryan Blaire]

2 minutes ago, tzeentch9 said:

Maybe just work out the points per model, add 5pts for any additions in war gear or weapons to the unit, ie per special or heavy weapon you take. That seems like an easy, if imperfect fix

(Now if only GW had done just that for the game they are selling us, instead of needing to house-rule it… you know, like they used to, before they apparently gave up.)

Edited June 17, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[crimsondave]

27 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm going to say something that some folk seen to think is a wrong think - it's ok to play tournaments and like events.

 

There I said it.

 

There's been this odd opinion I've noticed creep in, that GW sending your stuff to legends is ok because it only hurts tournament players. Or tournament players caring about granularity and variable unit sizes should be disregarded. 

 

Of course, folk who care about those things aren't all tournament players, even the majority of them like.

 

Anyway, it's nonsense. Tournaments and events are good fun and there's plenty of people who enjoy them. "Tournaments" doesn't even mean just one thing, as theme, casual players and there for the fun players can all enjoy a tournament too.

I’ll add that just because something is good for one doesn’t make it bad for the other.

[Emperor Ming]

1 hour ago, Blurf said:

How do you adapt to your units being completely unplayable?

Move on to other armies sadly 

 

Unfortunately I don't think points decreases will fix sisters

 

Varying amounts of subpar stats that haven't kept up with the new edition combined with fixed unit sizes,

 

Add in sisters weapons in general relay on basic flamers melta and bolters, which are a bit crap

[Interrogator Stobz]

4 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Power Levels have been around for a long time. There is nothing "knee jerk" about it.

 

What makes it even better is Games Workshop even called out the "removal" of Power Levels in their article on list building in 10th Edition:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/30/how-army-building-works-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

 

 

 

Seems gaslighting is GeeDubs current spin

[Evil Eye]

Well that's about killed the last of my interest in 10th. A bare-bones squad costing the exact same as one fully kitted out with special weapons makes precisely zero sense whatsoever, and having to build squads to fixed numbers isn't great either- It smacks heavily of GW's "You WILL play the game how we want you to!" attitude.

 

Guess I'll be playing other rulesets or older editions!

[spessmarine]

Yeah, don't bug the grunts.

Do what Honest Wargamer did, I think it was, and bug folks at Nottingham. 

[OttoVonAwesome]

16 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

That has already been done.  They are part of the problem.  

 

No, I’m not planning on doing much with the till guy, other than processing the refund.  Doesn’t stop me talking with other people in the store.  It is nothing to me if others listen or not, and if they don’t want to, at least some will know there’s a Leviathan available for purchase.

 

You guys are reading a lot into my comments - which is itself amusing, but expected.

Don't worry about it. GW is reading thousands of posts most likely this very thread as well and shifting to damage control. You don't have to worry about being heard it's like I said they get us to do all thier playtesting after they release things not before like they should. They are no different then the video game publishers who rush out broken products and then race to get them into a playable state before it's too late to salvage and just like Fallout 76 or Cyberpunk 2077 it's a year before the new edition is sitting in a good place and they are already working on the next. 

 

This shouldn't be a luanch it should have been a community beta rule set that they could have gotten feedback from the community on to actually make a product that everyone wants but they got books to push and cards to sell that they finalized 6 months ago. In house and contracted playtesters won't rock the boat too much and besides that the sample size is too small just look at all the crap that slipped through. Gw really needs to change the way they handle editions so by all means get angry they are listening and people gotta be heard.

[Doghouse]

I've been playing around with the points for a potential game with a mate of mine and I am genuinely not getting the usual enjoyment from list making that I've had in the past. I enjoy the whole robbing peter to pay paul aspect of the old system, fielding under strength max units to squeeze out the points for a character or extra wargear for a unit or vehicle that can tip the balance in my favour.

 

At the moment it feels like I am having to eat my greens before I am allowed dessert, it may sound daft but it feels like a bit of a chore because I am not really enjoying it. I get that it is quicker but for me personally it feels a bit soulless and I never found the old list building to be a lengthy process in the slightest anyway. It always gave me a sense of accomplishment when those decisions paid off in the actual game that followed.

 

We're hoping to get a game in tomorrow so I will see how I feel about it then. I'm not asking his opinion because he's a Death Guard player and not happy at the moment.

[Blindhamster]

14 minutes ago, Doghouse said:

I've been playing around with the points for a potential game with a mate of mine and I am genuinely not getting the usual enjoyment from list making that I've had in the past. I enjoy the whole robbing peter to pay paul aspect of the old system, fielding under strength max units to squeeze out the points for a character or extra wargear for a unit or vehicle that can tip the balance in my favour.

 

At the moment it feels like I am having to eat my greens before I am allowed dessert, it may sound daft but it feels like a bit of a chore because I am not really enjoying it. I get that it is quicker but for me personally it feels a bit soulless and I never found the old list building to be a lengthy process in the slightest anyway. It always gave me a sense of accomplishment when those decisions paid off in the actual game that followed.

 

We're hoping to get a game in tomorrow so I will see how I feel about it then. I'm not asking his opinion because he's a Death Guard player and not happy at the moment.

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on an actual game man, please do write something up for it.

 

totally agree on the points, kinda saw it coming but it’s definitely kinda sad feeling as a list building exercise, and it’s also totally unbalanced on the majority of units with even a few options.

[caladancid]

Hmmm. Should I equip my Battlesuits with three flamers or three ion blasters when they cost the same..............

 

Credit where it is due- GW has not only made list building but model building easier this edition!!

[Urauloth]

Huh, they went with the AoS system for unit numbers, and they... rebranded power levels as points?
Yeah, that's fine for AoS, where my Ironjawz have one two-handed weapon per five models - there's no real reason not to take it, but there's nothing else in the kit I want to build instead - but not so good with units that were originally designed for point-costed options.
Would I ever leave a balefire tome behind if I don't have to pay for it? Would I ever turn down a heavy weapon?

[Doghouse]

1 minute ago, Blindhamster said:

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on an actual game man, please do write something up for it.

 

totally agree on the points, kinda saw it coming but it’s definitely kinda sad feeling as a list building exercise, and it’s also totally unbalanced on the majority of units with even a few options.

 

Maybe it will change once the Codexs start dropping but I think they really need to give a quick pass over what they have released already and update a few because it could be years before some armies get their codex.

For the most part the list building was pretty straightforward but I was doing it through gritted teeth and kept stumbling on lots of little inconsistencies and nit-picks or errors in the data cards. 

 

We're going for 2k points and I am doing a Rogue Trader force of a mix of Imperial Agents, Space Marines and a Knight. I'm proxying my marines with my Heresy IW and most of our minis are bare plastic but we should get some idea with we like it or not. 

 

So far in regards to 10th edition list building I am at a 4/10 for enjoyment, 8/10 for speed where as on the old system I'd rate it 8/10 for enjoyment and 6.5/10 for speed. But like I say I am biased as I enjoy sitting down with a cup of tea and brainstorming a list on a notepad.

[MasterDeath]

I enjoy the new list building. Its a question of "how can i combine characters an Units + enhancements to something interesting " instead of "where can i Cut y Points for x". The Brainstorming is still there, only the question changed

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yeah, I've briefly looked at list building too.

Not really fun now, feels flat.

And I can't remember a time when speed was needed. 

 

Ironically OPR Grimdark list building is fast and flat but is more fun because I can do upgraded weapon options for points.

These are strange days when OPR is more complex than 40k.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, MasterDeath said:

I enjoy the new list building. Its a question of "how can i combine characters an Units + enhancements to something interesting " instead of "where can i Cut y Points for x". The Brainstorming is still there, only the question changed

 

You answer it once. 

[Vazzy]

I guess this is one of those “I just don’t get it” type of things. I do get why folks are upset. Legitimately I do. Granularity is fun for people to find the most optimal but cost effective option. 
 

But I’m putting together an Intercessor squad rn and still chose to give my sergeant a bolt pistol and power sword despite have the bits to do the optimal sergeant lord out now that a PF/TH and plasma pistol are the same points. 
 

Why? Because it looks cool and I’ve always thought plasma pistols were stupid. 
 

im not saying it was the best call by GW (it really was probably a bad choice based on the internet) but it’s certainly nice telling my GF she can build her Orks with whatever option she wants. 
 

tl;dr I like the change for the simplicity but see why it’s frustrating to folks. It’s a bummer seeing everyone so down about an edition i remember everyone being pretty excited for a month ago. 

[Doghouse]

13 minutes ago, MasterDeath said:

I enjoy the new list building. Its a question of "how can i combine characters an Units + enhancements to something interesting " instead of "where can i Cut y Points for x". The Brainstorming is still there, only the question changed

 

I get what you are saying but I still used to have to ask that same question in both 7th and 8th, it's just for seventh it was in regards to what unit they were attached to and how it boosted that unit in a similar way to tenth and 8th was more auras and bubbles so more of a case of what units in proximity benefit. 

I think that question of how do characters benefit this unit/vehicle is going to exist regardless of edition but implementation can often be different between editions.

 

You have a positive outlook on this new system so that is really good, I may get there eventually but I'm a bit of a grognard at heart. 

 

I'm not worried about rules changing because that is the norm and they never stray that far from previous editions it's this new way of working out costs has taken something from the game for me personally.  It feels like I lost a phase at the moment.

 

 

[Khornestar]

@Blurf

 

Tried to quote but the abysmal mobile function wouldn’t let me add any text because I dared to tap outside the quote box.

 

But regarding unplayable… to me there’s a difference between actually being unplayable and being pointed horribly. Obviously if the disparity between two armies is so great that one is guaranteed to lose, I can see why you wouldn’t want to play. 
 

Hopefully they correct such things ASAP.

 

My comment about adapting is what I do, personally. My goal is to enjoy myself and make the best of the situation, rather than complain. Obviously that isn’t everyone else’s goal. Be mad, don’t play, not sure what to say other than I hope people find a way to deal and still enjoy the hobby.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Khornestar