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Thousand Sons - Datasheet Discussion

Xenith

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Minsc Battle-Brother

Minsc

Posted
Posted
  On 7/27/2023 at 1:04 AM, Sambojin said:

[...] our Rhinos now have Firing Deck 2, just like everyone else's! I still can't think of a single powerful/cheap thing we can do with it, but being able to fire a Soulreaper and a plasma pistol/flamer out of it almost makes it as good as a basic Chimera! Yay!

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Or the psychic powers from the aspiring sorcerer and any attached leader. An Infernal Master will turn the Rhino into a fullblown Hellhound. :P

 

Does Hazardous hit the transport instead of a unit when used from a Fire Deck?

Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

I really don't know. But the IM won't really care about the first hazardous roll with 4 wounds, so it's fine either way. Almost worth it for 150pts and a laugh. Like, we're actually slightly over-costed, and under-unit-type'd, so a happy-little-mistake won't hurt too much.

 

I love the mental imagery of an insane techno-arcane sorcerer running around in a souped up heavy flamer/ bolter/ frag-missile light tank, filled with so much prometheum that it could explode at any moment. Devastating wounds indeed.

 

(It's kinda awesome that we're considered "somewhat balanced" in the update, with no nerfs from it, so exploring the funnier silly sides of the army is possible)

Edited by Sambojin
Sorceress Battle-Brother

Sorceress

Posted
Posted

the vehicle counts as the model firing the weapon so it would take the hazardous roll, then again you would loose any of the other rules they provide and you would also not generate cabal points for the units embarked, like 3 points which is often going to be the difference between a free strat, or doombolt and just getting a single save reroll.

Minsc Battle-Brother

Minsc

Posted
Posted
  On 7/28/2023 at 12:45 AM, Sambojin said:

I love the mental imagery of an insane techno-arcane sorcerer running around in a souped up heavy flamer/ bolter/ frag-missile light tank, filled with so much prometheum that it could explode at any moment. Devastating wounds indeed.

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"WITNESS ME!!!"

Ahzek451 Veteran

Ahzek451

Posted
Posted
  On 7/28/2023 at 12:45 AM, Sambojin said:

I really don't know. But the IM won't really care about the first hazardous roll with 4 wounds, so it's fine either way. Almost worth it for 150pts and a laugh. Like, we're actually slightly over-costed, and under-unit-type'd, so a happy-little-mistake won't hurt too much.

 

I love the mental imagery of an insane techno-arcane sorcerer running around in a souped up heavy flamer/ bolter/ frag-missile light tank, filled with so much prometheum that it could explode at any moment. Devastating wounds indeed.

 

(It's kinda awesome that we're considered "somewhat balanced" in the update, with no nerfs from it, so exploring the funnier silly sides of the army is possible)

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I dig it!

I will say, I am noticing a lot of eyes slowly making there way over to us. Knights, eldar, and genestealer cults are all still under the harsh scrutiny of the gaming community, but just occasionally I see comments that T.sons are overcosted, doombolt shouldn't target lone operatives, and calls for twist of fate as being too powerful. 

Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Twist of Fate honestly isn't that different to Oath of Moment in some ways, except you spend resources on it that could have been spent elsewhere. In many good ways.

 

Doombolt hitting Lone Operatives is just one of those things we can do. Again, it's expensive resource-wise, and for a shooty army, we're not very shooty. The only other ways we've got to deal with them are deepstrike and high movement shooting, and sometimes not even then (Eldar, and many others).

 

But even if they do get nerfed, it just moves "free" (6cabal) strats or double-move slightly higher up the list of "good things we can do". But they're not that powerful, overall, any of them. And plenty of armies get good free strats, and better ways of moving better shooting around. It just changes army composition and outlook slightly. It takes a lot of points, and a lot of keeping our army alive, to do these things in our army list, so it feels pretty balanced in a way (even taking a teleport item/ daemons/ deepstrike into account. It's not like we're a first-pick on tournament teams or anything. Yet).

 

They're flexible, and some things are slightly undercosted in the grand scheme of things, but within the army list itself? Fairly balanced, considering the lack of options and outcomes we have. I think some of that flexibility and power is necessary to be somewhat competitive and fun to play as and against.

 

I also think there'll slowly be a bit more respect given to the subtle nuances of the list. A Mutalith isn't a Forgefiend isn't a Predator tank. Or a Wardog. But they all do things. An Exalted Flamer is a nice mobile missile launcher, but it does open you up to Assassination pts against you. Big squads are good, but so are small. Tzaangor are surprisingly good max-sized with a shaman, or just as a min-sized squad, but maybe cultists do have their place as scouts. Blue Horrors aren't good infiltrators, but they are infiltrators. Pink Horrors are kinda annoying to kill, but certainly aren't good infantry. And yeah, some of our stuff is slightly overcosted, but due to our slightly more flexible uses of them, are still a part of a bigger whole. It'll be interesting to see how we fight in a few more months, regardless of nerfs.

 

((I doubt I'll do hair puffs or pseudo nose/beaks, but I'll probably run a bit of inspiration for my Horrors (from the starter set) off the Fieries from Labyrinth and standard Alien stuff. Chucking parts to each other, etc:

They'll be scary. But I've gotta use all those extra claws for something, so cute ears and "hand weapons" sounds fun too))

Edited by Sambojin
  • 1 month later...
Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Anyway, just to continue discussion, here's my "Take all comers" list. Not built, so theoretical, but it seems sound. Similar, yet very different in application, to many others. Somewhat taking in information from the World Team Championships, but doing it as a "1v1, you don't get to pick the matchup" list.

 

This sort of is a "fix my list" post, just on generating reasonable discussion. I can add stuff of why's, but I'll just post it so you've got something to ask.

 

(I might consider dropping a Mutalith for another Forgefiend, because sprinkling around -1 to-hit is fun. The army might need a bit of anti-combo goodness, whereas mutas just do a thing and do it ok'ish. Greater than the sum of its parts, while making the opponent's less, is a strange yet fun thing to do. Could drop two for a 3x Forgefiend 1xMuta list (and an extra cabal point enhancement), but it strangely slows the list down a fair bit. I like Vik's idea of "threat ranges", and mutas just do that better, even with anti-combo-but-still-pretty-good-firepower as the trade-off. Could also just use the 20pts saved to sidegrade some Enlightened into Flamers, so you've always got deepstrike on the table, or into the Changeling for lone operative play. Or even a Helbrute, if you don't feel there's enough cabal points. You could even just downgrade a Muta to a Predator tank for more lascannons, and choose your style. Or drop 1 Muta entirely, and have 2 units of Flamers. So there's a bit of room to move on this one. Anyway, original list below. Original Spicy Tzaanch chicky does have a nice flavour and tang, all of its own, but there's a lot of flavour you could like, if that's your thing)

:

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Edited by Sambojin
Formatting
Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Tzaanch v2.2.0

(Now with more slightly different spicy chicken!)

I'll edit this one for brevity later, maybe.

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Edited by Sambojin
Closing brackets, sorry
Indy Techwisp Veteran

Indy Techwisp

Posted
Posted

If anyone looking here wanted our points changes, here you go:

 

Ahriman+20

Ahriman on Disc+25

Exalted Sorcerer+10

Exalted Sorcerer on Disc+10

Infernal Master+20

Magnus the Red+30

Mutalith Vortext Beast+20

Rubric Marines+10

Scarab Occult Terminators+10

Cultists-5

Daemon Prince-30

Daemon Prince with Wings-10

Defiler-10

Land Raider-10

Predator Annihilator+10

Predator Destructor+5

Sorcerer+10

Terminator Sorcerer+10

Vindicator-10

Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

I hope this is a s* post. A year or two in advance, I think it is.

Define "our" on the points changes.

(So we brutally kill any light characters on 3x6 fatecaster enlightened, whilst still messing with the f*, wherever it needs magic-smash? Meh, fairly bad fifix-up that one. Hooray, 3x Forgefiends for all!!!)

 

((And daemons aren't good, so they may have a point decrease???? Lol))

 

(((I mean, seriously, are Rhinos free now?)))

Edited by Sambojin
Indy Techwisp Veteran

Indy Techwisp

Posted
Posted
  On 9/7/2023 at 2:27 PM, Sambojin said:

I hope this is a s* post. A year or two in advance, I think it is.

Define "our" on the points changes.

(So we brutally kill any light characters on 3x6 fatecaster enlightened, whilst still messing with the f*, wherever it needs magic-smash? Meh, fairly bad fifix-up that one. Hooray, 3x Forgefiends for all!!!)

 

((And daemons aren't good, so they may have a point decrease???? Lol))

 

(((I mean, seriously, are Rhinos free now?)))

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image.png.b0d550208f552052f3cfe4dcbb7beb81.png

Basically everything our army was using to barely scrape t4 with against the main players has been hiked in price.
It's not 3x Forgefiends, we can't even fit enough Rubrics in the lists now.

Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Okey'f'n'dokey. Give us a day or two on that.

Is that legit? Or just your own table's stuff?

Because I could do a pretty hard-out list from that, especially if I knew daemon's costs. Are they made-up too?

 

Meh, we're Thousand Sons, we'll be able to do stuff. Pretty damned well.

Edited by Sambojin
F the updates and fakes
Indy Techwisp Veteran

Indy Techwisp

Posted
Posted
  On 9/7/2023 at 3:29 PM, Sambojin said:

Okey'f'n'dokey. Give us a day or two on that.

Is that legit? Or just your own table's stuff?

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That's from the actual :cuss: Field Manual, straight from Warhammer Community

Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Seems strange, considering xeno-elves, banana-super-marines, Knights, undead, and everything else. Even SM. Huh. That's their balance patch? On this? Wow.

 

(I still get to take not-very-good-not-very-teleporting chicken-littles. Yay!?)

Edited by Sambojin
Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Honestly, on the *original Spicy Tzaanch* list above, it kinda looks like "drop a Muta or a predator or both, sidegrade into Forgefiends where necessary, list otherwise works as intended".

 

I mean, it's worse. But is it that much worse? Not sure. Doing a maths day today.

 

(The totally unoptimized Tzaanch):

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So, yeah, it's quite a bit worse, and more msu'y , but this is the lazy unoptimized version of it. It still would probably work a bit. Wouldn't take that much effort to make it properly spicy.

Edited by Sambojin
Less bleeding space in the armour
Minsc Battle-Brother

Minsc

Posted
Posted

TS needed a slight nerf, but this nerfbat didn't just hit way too hard, it even missed the mark.

Mutalith, Magnus and Twist of Fate where the main culprits. Mutalith got it's just desert, Magnus managed to get by with a mere slap on the wrist (less than 10% pointincrease) and Twist of Fate wasn't even touched.

Instead they nerfed stuff that no one's complained about in 10th, like Rubrics and our non-unique characters. 
 

Boo I say. :down:

Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

At least we've got a certain level of copium. We can still make lists. I mean, we could run stuff as chaos marines if we wanted, but even after us getting nerf batted, I'd still rather run Tsons.

 

"Nice Dodge!"

 

Invuln'd it. Didn't move. A bit of change is good.

 

(I don't think the intended consequence or outcome of this errata was "Yeah, we'll definitely add 6-18+ precision attacks to our lists", but it is what it is. Wait, is that our "thing". Like, the thing this army is "meant to do"? From GW's viewpoint. Turn-off armour saves, snipe incredibly well? I thought we were the "heaps of magic" army, but... I never really understood this army, I guess. Heaps of incredibly annoying and fast moving sniping works too)

 

In a way, we got quite a bit tougher with the devastating wounds changes, while still having ours work pretty well (we tending to do lots of little amounts, and will just have to focus our Doombolt'y ones on bigger targets). Towering isn't a big problem any more, so we can hide our little MSU units a lot more easily. Our anti-marine /custodes/ whatever weaponry still works fine (although there's a bit less of it). We didn't really get affected by the free strats change, and can still do a fair bit of shenanigans via magic, strats, enhancements, etc. I'm not saying I like the changes, especially our points nerfs, but there are some upsides to them as well.

Edited by Sambojin
Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

And look, ok, I'm not proud of it. Where's the magic? But, I wanted to do a non-optimized "magic" Knights list too. So, yeah. It's pretty s*. But it's there.

 

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Edited by Sambojin
Maths
Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Anyway, trying to make the Tzaanch list a bit spicier or saucier. It might be that. It's got slightly varying tech pieces in it. Sorry for not editing this one down, this is just what the app gave me. (Actually, I edited it)

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Umm, no Muta, more tech. I think that's yummier. It adds a bit of sauce to the spice.

Don't hug your pixels, it's just a game. But 10" move, 45pt "does stuff" is hard to come by. Other points savings? I don't know? Switch some rubrics into spawn, save 40pts, and work out the next level of Tzaanch? There's lots of down/side/whatever grades for basic "every game" stuff. You've gotta sit something tough, somewhere, for points.

Edited by Sambojin
Reliable tech
Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Anyway, I think this nerf put us from number 5-8'ish in the armies, to like 7-12th on power or application. Give or take +/- 1 or 2'ish, maybe more. Meh. It's annoying. No-one likes that level of variability on purchasing toy soldiers.

 

(Free bonus "Yeah, we could still take Magnus and termi blocks" list. Still just exploring our envelope, so others can see shifts in it)

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Edited by Sambojin
  • 1 month later...
  • 3 weeks later...
Ulfast Veteran

Ulfast

Posted
Posted

So a couple of weeks after the balancedate, seems we still can fight and get a tournament here and there. I saw something about around 50% winrate which is pretty nice.

 

But GW spolied that it seems we will not get a new codex until end of 2024 (or later), what do you guys think about that? Can we hold until that time a army?

Sambojin Novitiate

Sambojin

Posted
Posted (edited)

Probably. There's a fair few builds in the list, to give some pretty bad match-ups. It's not all just Magnus + Forgefiends.

 

Just as an outlook though, there was talk of the codex getting a Spawn epic hero (buffs spawn, might have an aura, and has cabal 2), spawn having wargear (more movement (+3?) a shooting attack (HFlamer or MMelta?) or psychic melee weapons, and they can go in Rhinos or Razorbacks taking up 3 spots, either 2 or 4 squad size available, but they'll cost a few more pts), a psychic weapon Razorback (just a normal SM RB, with psychic on its weapon options, havoc launcher instead of HK, but very flexible for all that. Also thoughts on giving it sticky objectives, to make it unique, with a slight points increase because of it+ psychic), a melee Tzaangor character (can lead Cultists too, probably a +1 to wound melee/ or rerolls, still +1 to hit, no cabal points, still high movement/ Enlightened amount, forget on the FNP save but probably not, glass cannon melee booster I think, with the shaman being magick/ tanking), and TSons Devastators with the usual heavy weapons in the codex. Alongside 5-10 sized Blue Horrors units (they have the Thousand Son keyword for their psychic shooting, but a tiny point increase), as well as pinks (again with psychic goodness), so you can go "all the Daemons summoned by marines, but sorta greater/ lesser horrors" depending on if they're "other datasheets-TSons" or "allies" if you want. Cultists can go in Rhinos (scout-move transport, nice). No word on new detachments or what they'll be like or focused on.

 

It looks like we'll be a far more well rounded army. Just lots of little tech tools, leaning pretty heavily into the psychic attack sustained/ lethal/ dev wounds side of things, or whatever other detachments give instead of that. And just generally more builds available and options for them (and potentially detachment rules to make it cooler).

 

Had a chat to a bloke ages ago who does planning for these things at GW, and so these aren't set in stone, but were all considerations for testing. Fairly sure that other Daemons were mentioned in that they'll be noted in the list, but still as an ally (no Thousand Sons keyword), wardogs and titans are still fine, just to make sure people know they can take them and to make the list look bigger and more varied. Also a bit of a blurb on other Tzeentchian warbands, space marines that fell/ got tricked into tzeentch worship, the roles of Tzaangors and cults, the more daemon'y styles of some armies (remember, Thousand Sons are a very varied legion, not a 1000 marine post-heresy codex chapter, and there are heaps of cults that worship marines like demi-gods). So it's not just Thousand Sons, it's a lot of fully-tzeentch'y CSM/ former-SM/ beastman/ daemon stuff too, but mostly Thousand Sons. Also, the Razorback might be pseudo-retconned into being a 1kSons thing, with their ones being the "original/ good" ones, and the Imperium's being shoddy knockoffs post-heresy with the psychic blasphemy removed (cheaper to make, but worse). It got "rediscovered" during a purge of a splinter cult of the Thousand Sons in the galactic south, and the Mechanicus decided it was still handy to have if you removed all the warp related stuff, considering how cheap it is to chuck a couple of big guns on a Rhino. Also a strange excerpt for why the Sons and the White Scars get along ok, because sometimes they used to do warfare in similar ways (ie: fast), as well as their primarch's bro-ship. Council of Nikkea be damned, as long as you can keep up with the White Scars in battle.

 

It was a while ago, but that was the general gist of chatting/ bashing out both list additions and lore.

(There's also the insane idea that it won't be detachment rules that change, but the cabal points magick list/ Army Rules, with some of them being specifically good for some styles of army. "Cabal of Sorcerers" could be "Daemonic Engines" or "Warp Rifted" or "Tzaangor Ambush" or "Cult of Change" or "Foreseen Obliteration", instead of the "Kindred Sorcery" detachment rules changing. And "Cult of Sorcery" is just the basic army rule for unit balancing, so psychic attacks get an army bonus. Still being worked on. It could go either way. But I'd rather 36 spells in my codex (6 detachments, 6 spells each) with one good core rule supported by the list's units, than one spell list that they had to edge-case or nerf units on a "just in case it's too strong" thing. Way more Tzeentchian, I reckon.

Edited by Sambojin
Ulfast Veteran

Ulfast

Posted
Posted

Wow, this sounds very intersting. I love most of this ideas and would make our army more unique and intersting. I do hope something more of this comes out. I´m actually happy to wait a bit for our codex just to get it right and with more intersting and fun things in it. 

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