Thousand Sons - Datasheet Discussion

[Xenith]

Sound like a lot of wishlisting, kind of like the old 5th ed BA rumours - hopefully some of them are true. TS are in dire need of an expansion to the range. Personally I think they would do more vehicle kits to sell us those, however I guess we're stuck with the daemon engines. 

[Ulfast]

I always have thought that a "small" silver tower tank could be done well. Also I think, if I can wish, something more closecombat, like dual cc terminators would be fun.

[Indy Techwisp]

Personally I'm still in the "More Sorcs, More Rubrics" camp for what I'd like from a TSons range expansion, but really I'd be happy with any new TSons stuff that isn't just giving us the entire AoS Arcanites of Tzeentch range rather than anything new for 40k.

[Ulfast]

I agree that we need something unique that is pure Thousand sons. No more leftovers from the chaos range or age of sigmars Tzeentch line. we need something that is just for us. THat would be fun and make us more intersting, specially for new people that want to start an army. 

[Xenith]

Yea, rubric havocs would be a low hanging fruit. The old style Chosen where each was a spellcaster would also be cool, or having the exalted sorcs available as a powerful unit of 3 like obliterators would be a great use for the kit also. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Personally, I'd like Assault Rubrics based off the HH Blade Cabal guys. (Mostly so all the Sorcs we have get more than 1 single thing to lead).
Other than that, something that makes the Cultists we already have benefit from our Rituals, like a Non-Marine Sorc.

[Xenith]

Oh yea, forgot about the Khenatai. Easy win there! 

[sitnam]

Honestly I'd prefer something unique to the 40k period. Close combat just don't really fit with how Rubric have been represented. A close combat sorcerer character would be neat though.

 

Rubric Havocs on discs would be really cool though, alongside some unique Daemon Engines

[Indy Techwisp]

3 hours ago, sitnam said:

Rubric Havocs on discs would be really cool though, alongside some unique Daemon Engines

 

Making a Disc of Tzeentch is supposed to be a very difficult endeavour.

You need to summon a Screamer, have it not kill you while you perform a ritual on it to form it into a frisbiee shape, then maintain your magic hold on it as you fly around last you lax for more than a second and it breaks out of its bindings back into a Daemon Manta Ray and mauls you.

 

A Rubric doesn't have the magical faculties or the mental ability to retain control of a disc, so it'd be weird for them to be riding around on one.

 

This is where part of my annoyance at TSons just having half the AoS Arcanites of Tzeentch Battletome shoved in our Codex comes from.

In AoS, Tzeentch himself just squishes Screamers into Discs for his Mortal or Daemonic followers, which is why the Tzaangors who have no magical ability can ride and control a Disc.

He doesn't do that in 40k, but the fact you can have about 21 Goats soaring around on them in one list paints a false picture of what a 40k Disc of Tzeentch actually is.

[sitnam]

I think that bit of lore has been retconned. The 8th edition lore makes it clear that the discs are gifts from Tzeentch just like AoS. I cant remember where the old Disc of Tzeentch lore had come from. I remember reading it but I can’t remember where that was stated.

 

The codex does state that Enlightened are more then your typical Tzaangors, able to commune the skeins of fate with Tzeentch. I but you are right, it’s be weird for a Rubric to ride a disc; whether you go with the wrangle a Screamer or gift of Tzeentch lore, a Rubric can’t do either

[Ulfast]

17 hours ago, sitnam said:

Honestly I'd prefer something unique to the 40k period. Close combat just don't really fit with how Rubric have been represented. A close combat sorcerer character would be neat though.

 

Rubric Havocs on discs would be really cool though, alongside some unique Daemon Engines

I totally agree. We need something unique that is diffrent from other legions and space marines. It would be so cool and it´s so much that GW minatures maker could make that suit our army and armystyle.

[Sambojin]

Here's what I'd do, rules-wise, on the stuff I talked to some random GW bloke about:

Some random de-nerfs on points changes, but some go up due to free wargear. -10 on Flying DPs/ Magnus/ Ahriman, -5/10 on 5/10-man Rubrics, -10/-20 on Scarab Termies 5/10, +10/+20 on 2/4 sized Spawn groups, +5/+10 on 5/10 Blue Horrors and +10 on Pinks, +10 on Razorbacks.

 

Rules simplifications:

Blue and Pink Horrors just get a FNP 5+. No other stupid splitting BS. It takes too long, is too complicated, and requires off-map models. They do get the "Thousand Sons" keyword when taken as "other units" from this list, not as "allies" from the Daemon list. This makes them really good, really versatile, but never cheap, and never that good. But you have all the Lasgun/bolter types because of this with "psychic" shooting, and they do deepstrike/ infiltrate as well. 1 wound, with a save, but can do a thing. Sometimes.

(They seem tanky, but they're not. They're like Imperial Guard, with slightly modifyable basic weapons, but none of the special or heavy weapons. If they didn't have deepstrike or infiltrator, you wouldn't take them, even with Dev Wound bolters. But they do, so they open up plenty of options in the list, for plenty of builds).

 

Razorbacks get psychic on their main weapon options (all the weapons, not the current SM codex list. We've got heaps of assault cannons, our basic infantry squad has one), and sticky objectives. They lose their other special rules. They can carry 5 Rubrics/ or 5 Devastators+ a character, or two spawn.

 

Rhinos can hold 10 Rubrics, 10 Devastors, 10 Cultists, or 2-4 Spawn. Plus a character or two. Or a mix of these things. Rubrics/ Devastators/ Cultists=1, spawn=3 for the slot filling. It has 12 slots, and they come in 5's or 10's or 6's or 1's. You work it out. They cost 75pts per Rhino, deal with it. Tactical small/ medium/ large infantry is good.

 

Spawn can have a "shoot-one-of these" of a multimelta/ h.flamer weapon, or +3" movement, or psychic attacks in melee, or a 5+FNP. Choose one, it's like wargear. They're your "fill any role this list doesn't address" unit. No, nearly 40pts per multimelta isn't a good deal. But they're your Obliterators, deal with it. And your fast heavy infantry. And your slow'ish woundables. And your assault infantry. But so are your Forgefiends and Mutaliths and f*-knows what else. At least you can have them in squads of 2 or 4, and they fit in a Rhino.

 

Devastators: yeah, maybe put them at exactly the same points, but once per game, they can just have psychic attacks instead of a cherub. It makes them way better in so many ways with all the different weapon types. Maybe +10pts per squad? But it seems like overkill to overcost a "weak" unit. But 130pts seems fair'ish.

 

Yeah, that about does it.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Sambojin

[Indy Techwisp]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:57 PM, Sambojin said:

Here's what I'd do, rules-wise, on the stuff I talked to some random GW bloke about:

Some random de-nerfs on points changes, but some go up due to free wargear. -10 on Flying DPs/ Magnus/ Ahriman, -5/10 on 5/10-man Rubrics, -10/-20 on Scarab Termies 5/10, +10/+20 on 2/4 sized Spawn groups, +5/+10 on 5/10 Blue Horrors and +10 on Pinks, +10 on Razorbacks.

 

Rules simplifications:

Blue and Pink Horrors just get a FNP 5+. No other stupid splitting BS. It takes too long, is too complicated, and requires off-map models. They do get the "Thousand Sons" keyword when taken as "other units" from this list, not as "allies" from the Daemon list. This makes them really good, really versatile, but never cheap, and never that good. But you have all the Lasgun/bolter types because of this with "psychic" shooting, and they do deepstrike/ infiltrate as well. 1 wound, with a save, but can do a thing. Sometimes.

(They seem tanky, but they're not. They're like Imperial Guard, with slightly modifyable basic weapons, but none of the special or heavy weapons. If they didn't have deepstrike or infiltrator, you wouldn't take them, even with Dev Wound bolters. But they do, so they open up plenty of options in the list, for plenty of builds).

 

Razorbacks get psychic on their main weapon options (all the weapons, not the current SM codex list. We've got heaps of assault cannons, our basic infantry squad has one), and sticky objectives. They lose their other special rules. They can carry 5 Rubrics/ or 5 Devastators+ a character, or two spawn.

 

Rhinos can hold 10 Rubrics, 10 Devastors, 10 Cultists, or 2-4 Spawn. Plus a character or two. Or a mix of these things. Rubrics/ Devastators/ Cultists=1, spawn=3 for the slot filling. It has 12 slots, and they come in 5's or 10's or 6's or 1's. You work it out. They cost 75pts per Rhino, deal with it. Tactical small/ medium/ large infantry is good.

 

Spawn can have a "shoot-one-of these" of a multimelta/ h.flamer weapon, or +3" movement, or psychic attacks in melee, or a 5+FNP. Choose one, it's like wargear. They're your "fill any role this list doesn't address" unit. No, nearly 40pts per multimelta isn't a good deal. But they're your Obliterators, deal with it. And your fast heavy infantry. And your slow'ish woundables. And your assault infantry. But so are your Forgefiends and Mutaliths and f*-knows what else. At least you can have them in squads of 2 or 4, and they fit in a Rhino.

 

Devastators: yeah, maybe put them at exactly the same points, but once per game, they can just have psychic attacks instead of a cherub. It makes them way better in so many ways with all the different weapon types. Maybe +10pts per squad? But it seems like overkill to overcost a "weak" unit. But 130pts seems fair'ish.

 

Yeah, that about does it.

 

We don't have Horrors (that aren't Daemon Allies), Razorback (They're Loyalist), Devastators (Also Loyalist) or Obliterators.
Also the Spawn is the same as all CSM Spawn, so any change to ours would be a change to theirs too.

 

EDIT:

We also don't have Havocs (the CSM equivalent of Devastators) if calling them "Devastators" was just a naming Mix-Up.

Also regarding the "no stupid splitting BS" thing.
That's the primary defining trait of Horrors.
It's their "thing".
Taking the splitting away from Horrors would be like removing the Miracles from Sisters of Battle, or the Cybernetics from Mechanicus.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Indy Techwisp
Added extra stuff

[Sambojin]

To continue the wishlisting, I'm hoping they give TSons (and CSM in general) an option for Greater Daemon Princes. Just based on a throwback to 2nd edition, because there was a discussion on DakkaDakka on it. They used to rule daemon realms merged with mortals in the warp, now most Chaos Lords would say "nah, I'm fine mate, I don't want to become less powerful".

 

Not sure exactly what they should be, but I'd still just keep them 10e-simple.

 

"Take a (winged?) Daemon Prince, add 25pts (+1Toughness?), they can use psychic attacks on any weapon *if they want*, and they can take two enhancements. Other characters in your army can still choose to take these enhancements."

 

That'd make them awesome and fun, but costed high enough for this power, and be customisable enough to make it worth it (without nerfing the rest of your army's options around them).

 

I might take a craic at a bodgy-homebrew-codex at some point with these changes in mind. Might possibly be done before the actual TSons one, and will probably be better balanced and thought out as well :)

Edited January 2 by Sambojin

[Sambojin]

Not-on-the-wishlisting, but I still think people are sleeping pretty hard on Tzaangor in general.

 

Do you know how far you can spread a 20-sized block of them? You can even make funny chaos symbols or smiley faces on the map, and still have anti-teleport protection. 3" teleport? Yeah, have fun against 20 wounds that can blob however I want. You'll still be outside your charge distance from the objective, and it only cost me 130pts. This one's mine until next turn, at which point, I'll take that seriously. And start melting your unit(s).

(A not very mentioned fact of the Tzaangor + Shaman with crystal combo is, 20 3+ auto-pistol shots within 9", a 2+ mutating orb, and a re-rolled charge, and 41OC moving in, can really f* an Calidus Assassin's day. They're nice like that too. This is without a "yes, I can definitely see you, so DOOM BOLT!" thing. Kinda the reverse of "why you always put scouty omni-scrambler anti-teleports near your "safe" objectives, if you can, but still have +OC or firepower or melee somewhere near them)

 

And Enlightened... Well, they're 3x super mini heroes for 45pts, but are actual hero slayers at 90+60pts, with a Shaman. Amazing objective takers, but can also be awesome. Not enough gets said on the list about them. It's sort-of the reason why it's never a bad thing to put your Crystal on a shaman. Every game, you get to decide, "do I want more sniping, or more OC? But they teleport!". They're probably the MVPs of every match, assuming you take 2-3 units of them, and more than the minimum. They just move so quick, and have OC2. Sniping racks up, but at worst, it's S5, -2AC, D2 shooting....

Edited January 2 by Sambojin

[Indy Techwisp]

10 hours ago, Sambojin said:

Not-on-the-wishlisting, but I still think people are sleeping pretty hard on Tzaangor in general.

 

IIRC Tzaangors are "slept on" a lot 'cause most of us would rather they weren't in our army anymore

[Dr_Ruminahui]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:09 AM, Sambojin said:

Do you know how far you can spread a 20-sized block of them? You can even make funny chaos symbols or smiley faces on the map, and still have anti-teleport protection.

 

Just thought I would comment on this part.  Given the current rules for coherency (2 models must be within coherency if there are 7 or more models in the unit), this does limit conga-lining.  And yes, you can put them in a circle, but you need to be careful and consider what happens when you take casualties, because at the end of every turn you remove models until the unit is in coherency again - if they are strung out in a line (even a curved line), effectively this means you remove models until your squad only has 6 models left.

 

You can still get a unit of 20 in a line of about 30" long, which is still quite long, but that's at maximum dispersion so you'll need to be super careful in moving them and removing casualties to avoid losing some due to lack of coherency.

 

Still, for the purpose of screening, at only 5 points more per cultists (per 10) than cultists, they seem a bit better at that job.

Edited January 3 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Sambojin]

Still, you do get to choose which models die, so coherency is pretty easy to keep up. In melee, not so much, but against shooting, yeah, it just shortens the smile into a smirk.

 

I wouldn't mind doing a "how far can 20 or 21 models give a 3" or 9" teleport block" simulation at some point. I'm pretty sure you will end up with chaos stars at some point. Lol.

 

((Not really relevant to the discussion, but somewhat, on particle coherency effects.

By Sebastian Lague, a Bad Apple fluid dynamics animation. Not sure why I'm linking it here, but it seemed fitting:

 

))

 

What a time to be alive!

 

There's also nothing stopping you running it as a "big particle", almost Warhammer Fantasy-like of 5x4+1, 3x7, or 2x10+1, if charge distance is what you're going for. They're just stat-blobs. With re-rolled charges, advances, break tests, 6++/5+FNP and 3+ to-hit. Which are a pretty good blobbing of stats. Sort-of like really bad, yeetable Orks. They're not your main plan, they're the other bit of another plan.

Edited January 4 by Sambojin

[Sambojin]

Well, just so there's some input to stuff, here's a list!

-------

Starter Set+ EX2 Super Hyper Mega Edition (2000 points)

 

Thousand Sons

Strike Force (2000 points)

Cult of Magic

 

 

CHARACTERS

 

Ahriman (130 points)

  • Warlord

 

Infernal Master (115 points)

  • 1x Force weapon

    1x Inferno bolt pistol

    1x Screamer Invocation

  • Enhancement: Lord of Forbidden Lore

 

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with Wings (210 points)

  • 1x Hellforged weapons

    1x Infernal cannon

  • Enhancement: Arcane Vortex

 

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with Wings (195 points)

  • 1x Hellforged weapons

    1x Infernal cannon

 

Tzaangor Shaman (80 points)

  • 1x Mutating orbs

    1x Shaman’s stave

  • Enhancement: Umbralefic Crystal

 

Tzaangor Shaman (60 points)

  • 1x Mutating orbs

    1x Shaman’s stave

 

 

BATTLELINE

 

3x Rubric Marines (105/315 pts)

  • 1x Aspiring Sorcerer

    • 1x Force weapon

      1x Plasma pistol

      1x Warpsmite

  • 4x Rubric Marine

    • 4x Close combat weapon

      1x Icon of Flame

      1x Soulreaper cannon

      3x Warpflamer

 

Tzaangors (130 points)

  • 1x Twistbray

    • 1x Tzaangor blades

  • 19x Tzaangor

    • 19x Autopistol

      1x Brayhorn

      19x Chainsword

      1x Herd banner

 

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

 

2x Thousand Sons Rhino (75/150 points)

  • 1x Armoured tracks

    1x Havoc launcher

    1x Inferno combi-bolter

    1x Inferno combi-weapon

 

 

OTHER DATASHEETS

 

2x Mutalith Vortex Beast (165/330 pts)

 

10x Thousand Sons Cultists (60 pts)

      1x Flamer

      1x Grenade launcher

      1x Heavy stubber

 

2x 6 Tzaangor Enlightened (90/180 pts)

  • greatbows

 

1x3 Tzaangor Enlightened (45 pts)

  • greatbows

--------

 

Chuck it in your army builder, and see how you'd change it. Then reply.

One of the worst things about our army list, is that after the points nerfs, we don't have enough units or enough movement to really compete properly, and are too glass-cannoned to do much in turn 4-5 unless everything goes well. Well, this "tries" to fix that, but it can be done better. So, how so?

(You'd probably want to put Ahriman's unit together as a ten-block, etc, but other stuff is worthwhile too. And, yes, 3 maxxed units of plasma Inceptors are more powerful than your entire army's gimmicks, which is annoying)

Edited January 16 by Sambojin

[Indy Techwisp]

@Sambojin

 

So, using your list as a base and modifying from there...

 

CHARACTER

 

Infernal Master (2Cabal Points, 110pts)

(Umbralefic Crystal)

 

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince with wings (2Cabal Points, 210pts)

(Arcane Vortex)

 

Thousand Sons Sorcerer in Terminator Armour (2Cabal Points, 115pts)

 

Ahriman (3Cabal Points, 130pts)

 

[Warlord] Magnus the Red (4Cabal Points, 440pts)

 

BATTLELINE

 

10x Rubric Marines (1Cabal Points, 210pts)

 

10x Rubric Marines (1Cabal Points, 210pts)

 

OTHER DATASHEETS

 

5x Scarab Occult Terminators (1Cabal Points, 215pts)

 

20x Thousand Sons Cultists (120pts)

 

Mutalith Vortex Beast (165pts)

 

Thousand Sons Rhino (75pts)

 

 

The most important change with it was the eradication of Tzaangors.

Edited January 18 by Indy Techwisp
Forgot Enhancements

[Sambojin]

Watch out, they might give us Kroot as allies, just to save them filling all the army roles we're missing. I mean, we've already got birdy-boys, no-one will mind a few more. Will they?

[Xenith]

Might be worth popping to the top of the topics again I had my first game of 10th in ages over the weekend, and actually had some fun, after my slogs with undamaging tyranids through the first...year (!) of the edition. I actually managed to do some damage, models seemed pretty tough, and I had some sneaky tricks - just as in 9th, though, you still need to plan your moves out though, with enough overlapping layers of buffs, and thats before we get to the rituals.

 

How are we all feeling about the Index list? I was pretty happy with the rubrics however I used magnus for the first time and it feels like he is the main strength to the list with his amazing powers - everything else felt a little weak perhaps. I can't see armies without magus and his amazing buffs (+1 to hit and wound with psy powers) doing as well, he just adds so much.

 

How do you feel about the non-magnus datasheets? Are they up to snuff, or just performing well because of what Magnus adds to them?

[Ulfast]

I would say we have a very good and strong index rules. Only drawbac is that some unit are so much better then others which means several units never get used.

[Xenith]

I presume the never used units are anything that isn't:

Ahrmian

Magnus

Rubrics

Scarabs

MVB

Rhino

Enlightened?

 

And the enlightened are there just by the virtue of fly forwards and do stuff, so that's 6 useful datasheets in the Index?

[Indy Techwisp]

 

I presume the never used units are anything that isn't:

Ahrmian

Magnus

Rubrics

Scarabs

MVB

Rhino

Enlightened?

 

And the enlightened are there just by the virtue of fly forwards and do stuff, so that's 6 useful datasheets in the Index?

 

Infernal Master and the Generic Sorc are taken rather often too.