Legions Imperialis Legions Imperialis

[Marshal Rohr]

Don’t think of it by Faction and think of it by sprue. There are no ‘factions’ in Heresy production schedules. We haven’t seen the first sprue yet, so this is pure conjecture, but it looks like the Marine and Solar Aux detachments in the box are a single duplicated sprue. The Leman Russ and Malcadors appear to be a single sprue and the sicarans and predators also appear to be a single sprue. I’m not sure where the Contemptors and Sentinels fit in, but they may be from something like small character sized sprues. 
 

So while it might seem like putting ‘militia’ or regular army in the game is a stretch, it’s not really, it’s just an infantry detachment sprue and you use solar Auxilia vehicles. Custodes and Sisters will probably come on a single sprue split between them that has all the infantry options and some dreads. It’s the legion specific stuff that will break the bank for them not baseline unit sprues. Where one infantry sprue can do tacticals, support, assault, terminators, and a command squad doing Sons of Horus Reavers and Justaerin is an entire sprue that needs to be made in plastic with no cross compatibility. 
 

edit: they’re also going to do a lot of resin supplements. It makes people mad, but it’s a tool in their tool shed. Many people won’t have an issue paying 70 bucks for 40 reavers and Justaerin just like many people don’t have an issue paying the money for resin Justaerin now. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[Matrindur]

4 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

It’s the legion specific stuff that will break the bank for them not baseline unit sprues. Where one infantry sprue can do tacticals, support, assault, terminators, and a command squad doing Sons of Horus Reavers and Justaerin is an entire sprue that needs to be made in plastic with no cross compatibility. 
 

edit: they’re also going to do a lot of resin supplements. It makes people mad, but it’s a tool in their tool shed. Many people won’t have an issue paying 70 bucks for 40 reavers and Justaerin just like many people don’t have an issue paying the money for resin Justaerin now. 

If we are getting legion specific stuff I'm pretty sure that will be in resin but in the slim chance they are also plastic a single sprue per chapter doesn't seem too unbelievable. For most of them a single sprue should be enough for all legion specific units and as we saw with the SA sentinels they also aren't opposed to invent new units. Then special Command Squads and Primarchs will be in resin.

But while that would be possible I still think all legion specifics in resin is more likely

[Noserenda]

Id be pretty surprised if they did mix factions on the same sprue, they are aware of how people buy minis after all. Id expect to see a sprue with a mix of infantry and vehicles though, thats probably where the sentinels and contemptors are for example. Ultimately though, until they show us more detail or other products any talk of the sprue layout is pure speculation on our part.

One odd thing i did notice is that there are no transports in the box at all, which is odd in Epic where the distances between armies are functionally a lot greater, making transports a lot more useful than 40k.



Regards the designers, James Hewitt said they hadnt started real work on Epic before he left, more planning out a hypothetical way to get to Epic by building up auxiliary ranges in AT and AI plus a possible Tallarn based game that would do tank ranges. Obviously the last one hasnt happened (yet!) but they did build things with Epic in mind down the line, most notably the buildings being designed to fit infantry bases on them (Though im not sure the round bases will?). 

We also heard at one point that Epic had been shelved because SG couldnt give full support to another game at the time, theyve been expanded since (Including James Gallagher afaik so that fits) and obviously its back on :D It makes sense Jervis might have been involved on some level given his standing in GW, even James Hewitt as i think its been mentioned GW has hired his Needy Cat games company for work before.


Theyve said everything in 30k should get a look in, so id expect something like a faction per quarter depending on how big they are, like, marines obviously have lots more stuff, but you can cover a lot of ground in epic with a small number of sprues, like a whole factions infantry on one in some cases.

The real question is how they treat the Legion specialist stuff, that adds a LOT to the release schedule potentially, and i really doubt it will be plastic if they wont do plastic legion upgrades in 28mm. Luckily resin is easier to slip into the release schedule than plastic so we wont be waiting years to get all the Legions covered! 

Though all of the legion special units and primarchs are currently available from 3rd parties or 3d prints, so there isnt much of a rush if they at least get rules coverage.


Finally, really good to get some confirmation of plastic :) 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Noserenda

[Lord Marshal]

Ten Things You Need To Know on WarCom.

 

Confirms 'Alternating Detachments' which isn't a big surprise, but glad it's confirmed. 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Matcap86]

Also destructible enviroments, which is nice :)

[Redcomet]

Maaaan. Just as I was ready to write this game off… Hidden orders, alternate actions and buildings that can go boom. And now I am interested 

[Shovellovin]

The destroyed building is new, correct? I don’t remember them from the previous AT terrain kits. 
 

edit - meaning the model/terrain piece

Edited July 3, 2023 by Shovellovin

[apologist]

Thought I'd add my tuppence-worth to the discussion :)

 

I've got a lot of goodwill towards Epic and want it to succeed. I went into the preview hoping for something to wow me, but overall, I think the preview gave me a mixed first impression. This was compounded by leaving a lot of questions unanswered. Hopefully the promised articles go some way to fixing the latter. 

 

The bad

• The name is a proper mouthful. Hopefully it becomes known as something shorter/catchier like Epic: Legions or something.
• The colour schemes they've gone for do a dreadful job of showing off what I think are nice underlying sculpts. Almost any other traitor Legion scheme would have looked better than muddy cream on grey and red and grey on grey.
• Model-wise, I was bemused at what I saw as the 'bittiness', or fussiness of what was on offer. No uniform Companies or platoons of similar tanks, but rather an odd hotch-potch of various bits and bobs. I wasn't wowed by the quantity either.
• Given the article's introduction (see below) I was struck with how anemic the model count was in comparison with older editions – but perhaps more importantly, with the game it's explictly comparing itself to. On reflection, I can see that this box is more GW showing us the breadth of its wares, but I think it sacrificed a lot of the visual appeal and impact of older editions in the process:

While your standard 3,000-point battle of the larger-scale Age of Darkness constitutes a slice of a larger engagement, Legions Imperialis is that battle in full, with dozens of tanks and hundreds of infantry striving for supremacy and advancing to battle between the legs of Knights and Titans. It’s battle on a new scale.

 

 

The good

• Other than the bittiness, which I can understand, the models look awesome to me. I've been spoiled by third party sculpts in the past, but I'm still pleased with how the Space Marines in particular look, and having them in plastic again makes me breathe a sigh of relief. This in itself is enough to sway me back towards buying the box, but I had expected to fall harder.
• The inclusion of new weapons for the Warhounds was a nice surprise, and lovely to have the implication that support for Titanicus is ongoing in some form.
• Similarly it's nice that Aeronautica models will be useable.
• Looks like typical GW high quality overall.
• A minor point, but one a mate pointed out – no little individual discs under the feet; but rather easily-hidden debris between the feet.

 

The rest

• Very conflicted about the HH setting. I like the neatness of tieing in with Titanicus, but think I'm going to struggle to find games amongst my gaming group, who all favoured xenos.
• Weird choice to have Solar Auxilia as the opposing force. They've hardly got an existing player base to appeal to, and while I don't begrudge their inclusion, it's another point against visual impact. Robed skitarii would have contrasted with armoured Space Marines much better; or simply mirror-matching and relying on colour.
• Reserving judgement on the rules, but the apparent lack of blast markers – perhaps the single best aspect of Epic: 40,000 and Epic: Armageddon is a personal point of concern.

 

Enough for now, but to summarise, I'm cautiously pleased, even if I'm not as wowed as I was hoping – or half-expecting – to be. Seems to be a bit of a horse designed by committee to really appeal.

[Colman]

8 minutes ago, apologist said:

Reserving judgement on the rules, but the apparent lack of blast markers – perhaps the single best aspect of Epic: 40,000 and Epic: Armageddon is a personal point of concern

Didn’t someone post a blow-up of the back of box showing templates included?

[Captain Idaho]

I was surprised we didn't see Imperial Fists or Blood Angels as they are very brightly coloured to demonstrate the sculpts, I must say.

 

I suspect GW was going for a grittier feel with Death Guard, to contrast with 40K somewhat which feels very "modern pop" in style at the moment. Still, would have thought Imperial Fists, Emperor's Children or Blood Angels would have popped well. Ultramarines probably too but GW doesn't always do them for HH as a lead.

[apologist]

41 minutes ago, Colman said:

Didn’t someone post a blow-up of the back of box showing templates included?

Sorry, to be clear, blast markers – little chits showing explosions to represent coming under fire, suppression and morale – rather than blast templates.

 

+Edit+

...and realised that in between writing my earlier post and, y'know, posting it, @Lord Marshal has kindly provided a link to GW's first article. My kneejerk response to the points raised:

 

Quote

An Age of Darkness – Legions Imperialis is set during the Horus Heresy, and grand warfare is its bread and butter. Those vast battles you’ve read about? Now you can recreate them in spectacular glory, fielding entire companies of your favourite Space Marine Legion at once as you battle for the future of Humanity.

 

Neutral on this – but if this is marketing speak for 'mechanics are engaging but simple enough to scale well', call this a thumbs-up.

 

 

Quote

Epic Scale – Legions Imperialis is ‘epic scale’, the same as Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis. Combine your models into a grand host, supplementing your Legiones Astartes or Solar Auxilia with the god-engines of the Mechanicum and more – all the better to lay waste to your foes.

 

Excellent to have this confirmed, though not a great surprise.

 

 

Quote

General’s Eye View – On the battlefield, Detachments – equivalent to the individual ‘units’ in other Warhammer games – operate according to the Orders assigned to them each round. Orders are initially hidden when issued, meaning you’ll have to predict what your opponent’s plan is and devise your own strategy to counter.

 

Sounds more akin to 2nd edition Space Marine (SM2) than the later ones, but it was quite a fun mechanic. I do like the slightly hands-off feel this gave – somewhat akin to the slight 'distance' you feel when activating units in Titanicus. A cautious thumbs-up.

 

 

Quote

Non-stop Action – The activation of Detachments alternates, meaning you move or fire a Detachment, then your opponent does, and so on. You’re always in the thick of battle, adjusting plans as you go to seize advantages that present themselves.

 

Excellent. One of the best things to inherit from Epic: Armageddon (EA)/Adeptus Titanicus (AT); ensuring that first turn advantage is minimised, and everyone is kept involved. Big thumbs up.

 

The order system mentioned in the previous bullet will presumably require tokens, which could help avoid the 'Did I activate this formation yet?' problem of EA.

 

 

Quote

Unrelenting War – The battlefields of the 31st Millennium are dangerous places. Titans will annihilate entire squadrons of tanks in a single barrage only to be felled in turn by strafing aircraft. Games of Legions Imperialis are visceral affairs where scores of warriors are killed in a single round, so make every moment they’re alive count!

 

Mmm... thumbs-down. We saw how awful 40k got when you simply shovelled handfuls of models off the board –  not to mention how rubbish it looks by the end of the game if it's empty. Much better for your carefully painted models to remain present, but be suppressed – as in EA – or leave evidence of its passing – as in AT.

 

 

Quote

Conquer the Battlefield – In every game of Legions Imperialis, your Primary Mission is to capture Objective markers, with their value determined by the mission being played. Victory Points are earned at the end of each round, meaning you can’t focus purely on eradicating your foe or they may just snatch victory from the jaws of apparent defeat.

 

Neutral on this. Not the worst possible option, but I had been hoping for the designers to take some inspiration from what is perhaps the (to my mind, unfairly maligned) Epic 40,000's (E40k) brilliant army morale system and method of generating dynamic missions rather than what sounds quite run of the mill.

 

 

Quote

Combined Arms – Strategic decisions begin before the battle – the army you field is just as important. Infantry are the best for capturing Objectives while vehicles and super-heavies are hardier and deadlier. Each Detachment has its role and it’s up to you to utilise them in the best possible way.

 

Seems sensible, but rather making up the numbers in terms of 10 burning questions :D

 

 

Quote

A Weapon for Every Situation – Just as each Detachment has a role, so too do the weapons they are armed with. Assault cannons mow down infantry but can’t scratch a Titan, while Lascannons are best used against vehicles. In Legions Imperialis, you must choose your targets wisely to get the full worth of your arsenals.

 

Reserving judgement. Like the point above, this doesn't really tell us a lot. I really hope there's some level of abstraction – EA's division of virtually everything into the simple categories of AP (anti-personnel), AT (anti-tank) and MW (macro weapon), with specific weapon names being nothing more than colour, was a good balance. I don't want to go back to SM2's granularity of differences between lasguns and boltguns, or largely irrelevant differences between the various heavy weapons.

 

 

Quote

Flexible Army Building – Armies in Legions Imperialis revolve around ‘Formations’. Each Formation is essentially an entire Horus Heresy – The Age of Darkness army, giving you lots of freedom in how you build your force. Want a Legiones Astartes army mounted entirely in gunships for an aerial assault? You can do that! Solar Auxilia super-heavy tank company? Yep! There’s a myriad of options and more to come in the future, allowing you to build the grand army of your hobby dreams.

Lovely – thumbs-up. 

 

 

Quote

Choose your Battlefield – Use the battlefield terrain to your advantage – garrison buildings with infantry, conceal flanking elements behind ruined city sectors, or push your tank squadrons down roads for added speed. A plethora of terrain types have rules, taking you from crumbling hive cities to thick jungles, lava fields and beyond. Oh, and you can blow up buildings with the right weapons… or a Titan fist!

Sounds fun, thumbs up. Anything that makes the 'third army' take more of a part points towards a game I want to play.

Edited July 3, 2023 by apologist

[Redcomet]

4 minutes ago, apologist said:

Sorry, to be clear, blast markers – little chits showing explosions to represent coming under fire, suppression and morale – rather than blast templates.

I don’t miss those 

[Marshal Rohr]

1 hour ago, Matrindur said:

If we are getting legion specific stuff I'm pretty sure that will be in resin but in the slim chance they are also plastic a single sprue per chapter doesn't seem too unbelievable. For most of them a single sprue should be enough for all legion specific units and as we saw with the SA sentinels they also aren't opposed to invent new units. Then special Command Squads and Primarchs will be in resin.

But while that would be possible I still think all legion specifics in resin is more likely

 

For perspective that would be 18 Boxes of Legion Specific Choices of doubled up single sprues. 

[Noserenda]

Blast markers are an excellent mechanic, but i dont think modern GW likes having card on the tables like they used to, though i guess they could do a plastic kit lol

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Can I make a request that someone splits this topic into the rumours part before the announcement and a new thread once it's known?

[ThePenitentOne]

Like HH, this could be the best game that GW ever made... And it won't matter for squat until the interesting factions get added into it.

 

Sorry that's negative- I should let those of you who are justifiably excited about this product to celebrate in peace. 

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

And it won't matter for squat until the interesting factions get added into it.

 

I say this as a Chaos player first and foremost who has been burned and disappointed by GW more times than I can count.

 

Its the Imperium, and Marines, that shift the tides at GW. That is the 'interesting' faction to the majority of the playerbase.

[Redcomet]

3 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

I say this as a Chaos player first and foremost who has been burned and disappointed by GW more times than I can count.

 

Its the Imperium, and Marines, that shift the tides at GW. That is the 'interesting' faction to the majority of the playerbase.

Only because they are the factions that get the most releases and new toys. It is a circular and self sustaining system. Sadly. Couple with GW being risk adverse in the extreme when it comes to non AoS stuff

[TheTrans]

Anyone feel they are going to have to nail the price point, given the sheer breath of 6-8mm sculpts rattling around as STLs?

[Scribe]

15 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Only because they are the factions that get the most releases and new toys. It is a circular and self sustaining system. Sadly. Couple with GW being risk adverse in the extreme when it comes to non AoS stuff

 

I would agree, but it is what it is at this point.

 

Imperium and Marines are the face, and it's easier for GW to justify a mirrored release or one that a single person can use instead of putting in effort for a faction they don't know will hit their massive profit margins.

[Cyrox]

2 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Anyone feel they are going to have to nail the price point, given the sheer breath of 6-8mm sculpts rattling around as STLs?

 

Absolutely - if they want to bring in as many players as they can for this, it needs to be sensibly priced.

 

There's no terrain, and its less plastic at that scale, even with the higher number of minis (223) 

 

If its above £120 a lot folk will skip it and just buy the rulebook, which will already be a popular choice.

 

 

[apologist]

A new page on the Horus Heresy website has been launched (https://thehorusheresy.com/legions-imperialis) giving a bit more of an insight into things:

 

Looks like the order token idea is right – and judging by the reference sheet, sharing symbols with Adeptus Titanicus (and for those old enough to have them, Epic: 40,000/BF:G order dice).

 

And as a point of interest, the Warhounds used there have the old weapon sprue. Wonder if that's an oversight, or both will be included?

 

+++

 

Quite besides the love-em-or-hate-em rules of Epic: 40,000, the prices were what killed it, in my estimation. Really hope they get this right. 

18 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Anyone feel they are going to have to nail the price point, given the sheer breath of 6-8mm sculpts rattling around as STLs?

 

If comparisons can be made, £105 is their pricepoint for the other 'Boxed Games', sounds about right to me for the box. I'd anticipate Companyish-sized boxes of infantry being £30–35 and support (e.g. tank squadron) being around £20–25. More pricy than I'd like, but doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility. 

 

Of course, the pricing of the Boxed Games material is weird, with very little consistency or seeming method between or across games.

Edited July 3, 2023 by apologist

[Marshal Rohr]

The price point will be consistent with Aeronautica and Titanicus. Huge stuff in the 100’s, like Warlords. Stuff like Super Heavy and Large Tank Detachments will cost between Warhound and Nemesis Prices. Infantry will come out between Queastoris/Cerasutus/Porphyrion prices. 

[Rik Lightstar]

@apologist seems pretty much where I'd expect pricing for plastic kits to be too.

 

The best comparisons are probably the Adeptus Titanicus Knight boxes and the Aeronautica Imperialis Squadrons which range from £22 to £30 RRP.

 

Infantry are a bit harder to gauge but the same price point for a two sprue box would be about right. Necromunda gangs are £30, Bloodbowl teams are £31.50 and WarCry warbands are £37.50.

 

Rik

[Noserenda]

Except, as mentioned, the price points for Titanicus (I just dont know AI well enough) arent particularly consistent internally, let alone with other SG ranges, with a sharp rise in prices above reaver scale and some real weirdness with the cerastus knights (Which they have since tightened up it seems ) and thats even before the joy of pricing in different countries :D 

One thing i did see mentioned on FB is that AT and AI were being run by different departments initially, though i think AI was brought into Specialist games at some point? I certainly hadnt heard anything but it makes sense.