More firstborn units lumped together or going away.

[Paladin777]

Not sure how I feel about a lot of this. on the one hand getting rid of the primaris/firstborn divide is good, on the other hand... I dunno. 
 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/24/space-marine-range-update-bikes-land-speeders-and-more-are-soon-zooming-off-into-the-sunset/

 

assault squads being lumped into VV squads seems potentially... problematic.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Paladin777

[Brother Captain Arkley]

I think its more its a guarantee that Assault Squads are getting embiggened, after Sternguard  I would say Vanguard are the last link in the 1st Company chain.

 

Sternguard and Terminators redone, Bladeguard added. 

 

I very much doubt Vanguard Veterans are going away.

 

I will not miss the old speeder but I was never a fan of how they went together, even the retool of it was sometimes not fun.

 

I do think as always the divide was created by GW, and for that I wish they didn't.

[Paladin777]

I agree that VV's aren't going away. I think that is confirmed with them saying RAS can be played as VV's. 
 

if I had to guess, I'd say that VV's are the one's getting embiggened, and RAS's are the datasheet that's going away. 
 

I am pretty upset that the ironclad is going away. I just bought and built one after the index dropped, and it's even part of my Call to Arms vow!

Edited July 24, 2023 by Paladin777

[Dracos]

Dang I need to go find a NIB Landspeeder. Im all Primaris since coming back but still have 1 Frankenstein Boxnought and need the Speeder for old time sakes. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Dracos

[Helias_Tancred]

Painful but necessary. I look forward to what replaces them. Sometimes I fear change, other times I don't.

 

 

[Castlerook]

Yeah, my thinking has been that they're clearing stock to replace it.

Scouts are going to be in the next Kill Team boxed set. So they'll be on their own about 3 months later. 

We know we're getting Jump pack marines later this year for Horus Heresy, so I would imagine they'll make it cross compatible.

Likewise, this has me thinking that the bikes and landspeeders will be redesigned to fit the HH aesthetic.

[Djangomatic82]

Assault marines and scout snipers being removed from the codex is going to put a damper on my 10e army plans.

[Tokugawa]

At least GW can no longer force players to buy ancient bad models like attack bikes or TFC by "rules/competitive" reason.

[Kallas]

16 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

At least GW can no longer force players to buy ancient bad models like attack bikes or TFC by "rules/competitive" reason.

Now they'll force you to buy bad new models, like ATVs! 

[Berzul]

As someone who has tried to remain with the Firstborn for as long as humanly possible, I have to say, I feel liberated by this decision. I have been wishing for GW to own up to their decision of redoing the Space Marine's product line, in full, and for good. Better to die out than to remain dying but not dead for years on end. I hope the entire rest of the Firstborn range gets moved into Legends soon, following this. As much as I love the Firstborn, and would love to continue to play them, they have for long now been pretty weak in comparisson to the Primaris. I am thankful for the fact that the company has finally decided to start putting an end to the uncertainty of when and how my collection would be made obsolete. Now I can move on and go into Primaris in full. No regerts.  

[Orange Knight]

13 hours ago, Kallas said:

Now they'll force you to buy bad new models, like ATVs! 

 

Lol no one is forced to buy anything. I personally don't care for the ATV but it does look far, far better than the Attack Bike and the Marines riding it have good proportions.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Lol no one is forced to buy anything.

Check what I was responding to:

On 7/25/2023 at 1:50 AM, Tokugawa said:

At least GW can no longer force players to buy ancient bad models like attack bikes or TFC by "rules/competitive" reason.

 

[Arikel]

The sad part for me is that it looks like the 3rd party stores have already had a stop sell issued for these units. I’ll have too look for used guys I guess to fill out my missing units for my company

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Arikel said:

The sad part for me is that it looks like the 3rd party stores have already had a stop sell issued for these units. I’ll have too look for used guys I guess to fill out my missing units for my company

 

Local LGS still has plenty of Firstborn kits in stock.  Go out and start scrounging.

[Captain Idaho]

Rant incoming... hold on to your butts. 

 

Said it before and I'm sure I'll repeat myself again... I'm disgusted by Games Workshop's shamelessly anti-consumer behaviour towards their largest demographic and source of income - Space Marines players.

 

The points now power level issue is bad but designed around Primaris compared to all other factions, but removing a substantial number of models for established players with the absurdity of "well use count as or legends" hand waved for that lack of support... well it's disgusting.

 

I honestly don't care if people liked Primaris or bought into them. That's great. I want people to be able to do what they want. But [GW] don't sell me products for a game then remove them and tell me I should be happy because the replacements are coming out.

 

Primaris never needed to be a thing. Sure, people bought into them and that's up to them, but objectively speaking, people were buying Firstborn Space Marines. They were still profitable and GW's own reveals that Tactical squads are in the top 10 best selling items NOW despite Primaris being a thing, well that disproves that Primaris ever had to happen.

 

The removal of a substantial number of models is unprecedented and totally not required. They can be updated easily enough. GW made record profits... invest in your games design as 10th has been awful so far with balance and datasheet errors and maybe you can update things easily and not have to get rid of rules for models people bought recently.

 

I'm also going to directly contest the following 2 claims.

 

1) The models are superior.

 

No. They're not. Intercessors and their variants are Marines. Bit better proportioned to some, but just a Marine. I don't look at a bunch of Intercessors on a table and am wowed by them and I doubt anyone does really.

 

They're good but a Marine. Hellblasters are a decent variant of them but still just a Marine holding a gun.

 

They're not modular though. GW have stepped backwards in time to monopose metal models, but now expect you to build that model out of plastic yourself instead of doing it fully in a mould.

 

These models are so monopose, I expect GW to produce ready made and painted figurines for 40K within a year.

 

The rest? Apart from Bladeguard which are good models objectively... they're awful. Eliminators, Reivers, Infiltrators and Incursors look like ChatGPT was asked to design a Call of Duty or Fortnite Space Marine.

 

Aggressors are awful. They look straight out of the 90s, like metal power armoured Calgar in their rigid pose and proportions.

 

Suppressors, Inceptors and Lord help us the Desolation squads are probably some of the least 40K Space Marines I've ever seen and just look poor.

 

Repulsors, Impulsors and ATVs are terrible models. They look like kids have designed them.

 

This myth people throw around that Primaris are better models is a method of arguing from an authority and elitism and isn't true. Besides that, you could make new models of Firstborn that look great, as shown by more recent Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Heresy miniatures, as well as some of the limited edition stuff.

 

I'm saying this because I'm not being gaslit into accepting something that I don't believe to be remotely true, which I keep seeing on the forums. Sure it's my opinion, but that's the point - Primaris aren't objectively superior models at all. Certainly not with any more legitimacy than me saying I think Firstborn are superior.

 

2) GW had to remove Firstborn so there could be new models/shelf space/whatever. 

 

Another false statement. Apart from the fact GW could have updated Firstborn and saved shelf space, as well as introducing new Marines units for them if they wanted, the logic doesn't pan out.

 

Look at the other factions. How many units have any of them lost which rendered their models obsolete? Their ranges have had additions for years and since 3rd edition lost next to nothing.

 

So it's just not true at all that Primaris had to replace Firstborn for new models. New Firstborn could have been introduced and people could have continued to use old models.

 

GW have moved from a friendly company that wants you to use your toys to a company that is actively removing choices and options and thinks its building long term customers.

 

Sure, they're making good profits (though growth is slowing) but they're sowing seeds for problems down the line. I've got several friends who are just not buying new Marines stuff because they feel let down by GW, some have fatigue whilst some just feel like their Space Wolves are the red headed step child of the line and ignored.

 

So in summary... GW have lost me for 10th. I'm not buying a single thing for it, outside finishing my Necrons via Ebay. Marines are dead to me. I spend several hundred pounds a year on Marines and 40K a year, probably close to 500 quid. The attitude that I don't matter is what leads to companies failing, because if I feel that way then so do other people. All of a sudden there are several hundred thousand disgruntled customers doing the same with their purchases and GW wonders what went wrong.

 

***P.S. I've also heard that Firstborn players don't matter because they're either few in number or don't purchase. This is false because GW themselves have pointed out Tactical Marines are still in the top 10 most sold items across the company.

 

Also folk don't ever stop their purchases. They build new Chapters, companies or just add to their massive forces. GW show massive armies in White Dwarf frequently and many Firstborn fans will attest to buying each year like I do.

 

We aren't few in number because we couldn't make Tactical squads in the top 10. Lastly, would GW mention us in several articles if we were so insignificant?

 

The answer to that is clearly no. So in an economic downturn, with the missteps of 10th edition after points to power level, Forge World legends despite telling us to buy those products a year before, the awful imbalances of the rules - can GW really alienate such a significant proportion of the customer base with this assumption "they'll just buy what we give them anyway"?

 

I'd hazard an educated guess that GW have damaged long term customer sales.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Berzul]

I agree, for the most part.

 

Every other faction has had their model line somewhat revamped or updated. But the units stay the same; they just get new sculpts for the same rules. And, what few things they get that are new, do not compete with their older units for the same battlefield roles. In Space Marines it is the exact opposite. Every Primaris unit has been "What you already have, but 'better'". 

 

So, with every faction, you can stay with your old models or replace them with new ones, but the game still plays the same. With us, you can stay with your old models and get tabled every match, or replace them with new ones and stay in the game. It's very predatory on the part of Games Workshop. Then again, why would you expect anything different? They are a company pushing product, and want to sell you things. They would replace the Primaris next with something else and make you buy your collection a third time, if they could. I have no doubt about it.

 

I will disagree in that the models DO look pretty. For the most part. The guys with the missile launchers are an absolute joke, and not for nothing have they been the most meme'ed unit in the entire history of the game, and the entire tacticool line of Marines is something that I was only reminded of by your post, and I will take active steps to once again forget they exist as soon as I finish this post. But the models, overall, do look nice.

 

 Also, at the end of the day, it all leads to the same place. If the Primaris had just been Firstborn upscaled and revamped, people would have still replaced their units for the new ones, out of a sense of aesthetics. With the Primaris being better versions of every Firstborn unit, people have no practical reason not to replace their units for the new ones. One way or the other, people, for the most part, would have replaced their collections with new collections, anyway.

 

I will mourn the removal of the grim darkness of the army, it having been replaced with Nerf™ style models and weapons, and with vehicles straight out of some kind of Sci Fi Hotwheels™ line. I will miss my ol' marines, as they go into Legends more and more. But, you know what? We have been living through YEARS of this uneasy state of "being replaced but not really only yeah really but you can still use your old models now buy the new ones", and I am relieved that Games Workshop finally had the balls to go ahead and just make it clear and overt. 

 

Old stuff is out, new stuff is in, and that's that.

 

Certainty of a bad thing is better than the uncertainty of a good thing, in a way. I can go and start getting into the new stuff with a clean slate and a clear understanding of where the game stands. And while I despise over half the things in the Primaris Space Marines line (now just, the Space Marines line), I can make do with the few things that I do like. Nothing more to it than that.

[Orion]

3 minutes ago, Berzul said:

I will mourn the removal of the grim darkness of the army, it having been replaced with Nerf™ style models and weapons, and with vehicles straight out of some kind of Sci Fi Hotwheels™ line.

It does very much feel like a range of toys. At least more so than any other faction.

[Orange Knight]

I'm sorry guys, but I disagree with your subjective opinions.

 

In my personal view, the Primaris are a clear upgrade over the old range. I am happy to admit that some of the kits aren't as good as others, but in general most are a hit.

I love how the units resemble the squads from the Horus Heresy, and I love how they are more distinct from both Chaos Marines and some of the other Imperium factions.

 

I think the general Tacticus units are fantastic, such as Intercessors and Bladeguard. The new Gravis squads such as the Eradicators look great. Outriders and Stormspeeders are a clear and obvious visual upgrade over the old equivalent kits. And now the venerable Terminators have crossed the Rubicon, and can take their place as another option in the Primaris army alongside most of the classic characters associated with each chapter.

 

I understand why some people dislike a few of the kits. There is actually a lot more distinctive variety across the Primaris range, and some of the ideas don't stick the landing as well as others. The range offers a lot of choice however, and you can omit units from an army and still create a viable force.

[Berzul]

I mean, your own opinion is also, 100% subjective.

 

But, it is a fair opinion. To which I'd just add that, as I in fact said, you CAN ignore the units you don't like, and just collect the ones you do.

 

If it boils down to how someone might like or dislike the look and feel of the Primaris units, it will always come down to personal preference. There is no consensus to be had there, or that even needs to be had. Everyone can like different things.

[Bouargh]

 

16 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Rant incoming... hold on to your butts. 

 

I may second you in the conclusions but not necesarily in all the details you gave (poor designs exist in all ranges at all times, it is just that we get used to some of these because they are on the shelves for sooo long.... )

But result for me will be the same as for you.

 

Anyway, as @Berzul said, it is a kind of liberation that the situation is now fully clarified. As the owner of more than 18k pts of Old school SM, I too know that I will not go into buying more SM. Mourning time is now over I guess. but I will not quit for 10th becaus ein fact, I just came back. Yet my customer profile will change:

 

1. I started diversifying in other armies which did not went into this range size awful inflation. I started this during 9th.
2. I will not anymore accumulate big forces ever - I will set a limit to 3 to 4 k pts to get a sufficient collection to a tactical versatility but not more. It is over the time of a project consisiting in gathering a whole great company for example. Better different smaller armies of higher pts/€ miniatures if possible (No, I will not play Custodes). 
3. The rest of my now "marked for obsolecence" collection will be kept as it is (maybe to be reused in other game systems independant of mini manufacturer, or going back too previous editions) or the collection of mine be phased to HH. Future will tell as I am not a big fan of the HH second edition neither. And as for 10th, I will play Legends.

As for any kind of usual argumentation given to justify a phasing out, I agree that they are poor. Sounds like excuses or memes.

My very own interpretation is that we should rather look into the IP strategy: in order to protect an IP, that for the minatures might be falling under the "Model and Drawing" category, you cannot pretend to a protection longer than 5 years extended once up to 10 years. The legal risk encountered by 3rd party printers and designers looks like rather limited if they start adapting their creations from stuff designed 12, 20 or 30 years ago with no real changes brought to the genuine concepts by GW (changing the pose of a tactical SM would probably not be a strong argument except under conditions of servile copy). If, as a Miniature company, you want to maintain and monetize your IP as GW does, you need therefore to rejuvenate and reprotect through new Models and Drawings with a sufficient frequency. From there may comes out the whole range change. At least it is my interpretation.

Looks more rational to me than "cleaning up shelves from too many references that I created on purpose" or "my technology progress allows me to give you better stuff". It is a possible explication I see, even if my IP training has not been refreshed for some years now, and that I may misinterprete the signs...

Years ago some GW official stated that they are a miniature company, not a game compny. So I would not look too far...

 

But, what is sure, is that range refresh and renewal could have been done in very different ways, for example promoting one to one sutitution and not pretending changing rules or gaming archetypes. But in the end it sorts out to be done under one of the worse posible, at least from long term consumers´ perception: " Trash bin baby" on the air of Muse´s Plug in Baby.

 

I now doubt that we will witness a reactionary movement such as the 9th age attempt, that appeared once WFB has been crucified. Some part of the 40k IP would fall under "litterature" creation and there the durations are larger, whereas Fantasy universe was largely common to many many editors (Who stole Tolkien first hand?). So part of what that does 40k marines will be lost. And without salt and peppa, it might be tasteless. But who knows...

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Bouargh
Note thst my IP theory is not working wirh aeldari guardians for example...

[Captain Idaho]

That's just it though; my subjective opinions on the models are just as valid as someone who likes them. People have been posting as if it's an objective truth the Primaris line is superior as if to silence objection to Firstborn being squatted.

[Robbienw]

I agree on all points with Captain Idaho.

 

The main problem is escalating loss of both the Mk7 aethesetic and the mixed Mk4/5/6/7 relic wargear coolness.

 

MKX just isn't as good looking or as iconic as MK7.  Proportions are irrelevant, as all the Firstborn units done in recent years with the new proportions (30k MK6, Space Marine Heroes Mk7, CSM Mixed Marks, GK and BT characters, etc) are all markedly superior in design and detail to Primaris units.

 

Really the only decent 40K mainline marine models that have been released in recent years are several characters which are almost identical to their previous iterations with only a couple of MkX features added, and the recent Terminators who are really in fact just a new firstborn kit.

 

If people like Primaris fine, but don't take away Firstborn from 40k and then try to make invalid excuses for it.  They are both quite clearly 2 distinct armies and should be treated as such.

 

 

[Berzul]

4 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

That's just it though; my subjective opinions on the models are just as valid as someone who likes them. People have been posting as if it's an objective truth the Primaris line is superior as if to silence objection to Firstborn being squatted.

 

I mean, ruleswise, they are. Compare them, across the past three editions, point for point, and you will find that Primaris often have better stats, or better weapons, or better abilities, or better stratagem support, or all of the above.

 

In terms of aesthetics, this is much more subjective and down to personal preference.

 

[Orange Knight]

I will repeat what I said in the other topic:

 

At this point, there will be no outcome that makes everyone happy. GW made a valid decision to update the range and liberate their artists from constrictive lore, and usher in change.

Change itself is divisive by nature, and it's often opposed.

 

GW themselves will have little to no regret ultimately. Their bottom line and hobby engagement have not suffered in the slightest.

 

From a more personal point of view, I will again say that ultimately this isn't surprising. I made a choice, years ago, to go along with the shifting tides because I simply did not want to erode my enjoyment of the hobby. Over the years, before I even started posting, I have seen people complain and get upset with each new Primaris release because it posed a threat to the old range. 

We need to be reminded that this is a completely optional hobby - we participate because it's enjoyable. We don't owe GW anything, and ultimately they owe us nothing in return. If this hobby is causing us grief, we should simply take a step back.

 

I am actually saddened that some users on this forum, judging by their comments over a long span of time, appear to have enjoyed little about their faction over the last 6 years. That's no way to engage in the hobby. 

 

And so we reach a difficult truth: Simply put, Primaris are now the 40k Marine range. They've become established and fully ingrained in the setting/lore over the past 6 years. Despite a lot of complaining from the community, they aren't a complete and total shift in terms of identity despite some key differences. At this point, you can chose to accept them, or you can bash your head against the wall. The third option is to walk away from the faction or hobby entirely. 

 

Things that we like evolve or change. It happens with people, movie, places, etc. I walked away from Star Wars despite it once being one of my most cherished IPs, and a formative part of my childhood. Warhammer 40k is in a far better state than modern Star Wars, for the record.

 

From where I stand, I'm hoping that after 6 years, this issue might finally be put to rest. I don't want to see hobbyists bashing their head against a wall. Acceptance will ultimately be better in the long run.

 

 

 

 

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

The points now power level issue is bad but designed around Primaris compared to all other factions

No.

 

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I honestly don't care if people liked Primaris or bought into them. That's great. I want people to be able to do what they want. But [GW] don't sell me products for a game then remove them and tell me I should be happy because the replacements are coming out.

this is just how game systems work, its how they make money generally - via replacements. Either outright replacements (which may have the same options, but regularly do not). Or through similar things that still definitely arent the same (primaris is an example of that in many but not all cases). The counts as suggestion is possibly fine for many things. Bikers and Outriders are basically the same thing, obviously the issue is that bikers had a million options, worth noting thats a space marine issue, and actually most other armies have never had the abundance of options marines have. But anyway, bolter firstborn make perfectly good intercessors, plasma gun wielding tacitcal marines would make fine hellblasters, bikers make fine outriders, even attack bikes would work fine as ATVs from a rule perspective. It's not perfect, but things change, its no more "anti consumer" than any other game, its just warhammer has rarely seen it happen on the scale it seems to be at the moment. BUT it's absolutely happened. My veteran assault squads for blood angels went away. "But you got vanguard veterans instead!" - sure, but thats literally the same scenario as primaris, its not the same thing but I can totally count my old models as that. My Honour Guard went away, with no replacement (sanguinary guard are a totally different thing), many peoples specially equipped priest models went away, My Death Company weapon options have changed so many times its kinda silly at this point. Hell my Veteran Intercessors (of which I have 20) stopped being a thing too. It's totally fine to be upset about it all, but its not a new thing, and the vast majority of models will still be usable, albeit MAYBE in different unit compositions to what you used to use them.

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Primaris never needed to be a thing. Sure, people bought into them and that's up to them, but objectively speaking, people were buying Firstborn Space Marines. They were still profitable and GW's own reveals that Tactical squads are in the top 10 best selling items NOW despite Primaris being a thing, well that disproves that Primaris ever had to happen.

I hadn't really been bothering with space marines for quite some time before primaris came about, and I've seen plenty of other people with similar stories. Primaris happened because GW wanted them to. Deal with it, it happened, its not going away, and the rant isn't going to change it, I doubt it even made you feel better to have it.

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

The removal of a substantial number of models is unprecedented and totally not required. They can be updated easily enough. GW made record profits... invest in your games design as 10th has been awful so far with balance and datasheet errors and maybe you can update things easily and not have to get rid of rules for models people bought recently.

The clearly don't /want/ to update those models, if they did, they would have. GW were never obligated to do so. Marine players were spoiled with something stupid like 5 iterations of tactical squad kits in the time Eldar got 1 guardian kit and orks got 1 boyz kit. GW Absolutely should be more forthcoming with their plans though, had they said those things were not going to survive into 10th, people wouldn't have gone and bought them after looking at the 10th index rules many of them got. Something I can absolutely get behind is the furstration at GWs shady approach to how they tell us things "its fine look, they're going nowhere" followed by "oops, theyre going now" sometimes within just a few months of eachother is bad, they do it in the hops of shifting the last bits of stock, but it sucks.

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

1) The models are superior.

 

both the point you're refuting and everything you say is nothing but opinion. People can have them in either direction. Nothing you say is any more factual than someone else saying they are superior (for my own view, I prefer the primaris scale, I also prefer the mkX tacticus armour design to any of the older mks except maybe mk8 and mk4, which I like about as much - which makes sense as those are clearly the two mks tacticus borrows from most). I do agree there are duds in the primaris lineup, but there are plenty of duds in the firstborn one too IN MY OPINION.

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

2) GW had to remove Firstborn so there could be new models/shelf space/whatever. 

 

Yeah this was clearly not true, That said, GW are very obviously having warehousing issues, they're struggling to keep anything in stock of late. Firstborn stuff didn't need to go, and I imagine that if its selling well, it will continue to not go anywhere any time soon, but they've already made a decision on their direction, it wouldn't make sense to back down from it now - they 100% could have dropped primaris again, if they'd wanted to. But they haven't. I still think the reason for primaris was as much due to wanting to try and better protect their IP than anything else.

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Space Wolves are the red headed step child of the line and ignored.

I Lol'd

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

So in summary... GW have lost me for 10th. I'm not buying a single thing for it, outside finishing my Necrons via Ebay. Marines are dead to me. I spend several hundred pounds a year on Marines and 40K a year, probably close to 500 quid. The attitude that I don't matter is what leads to companies failing, because if I feel that way then so do other people. All of a sudden there are several hundred thousand disgruntled customers doing the same with their purchases and GW wonders what went wrong.

I've mentioned it before, but... in some ways, you don't matter. Nor do I. GW want player retention, but they're always more interested in new blood rightly or wrongly. The other thing is, whilst there's plenty of people that didn't and still dont like primaris, and they're often incredibly vocal about it, there's still more people that do like them, there's also people like me who had gotten tired of the hobby and had their interest renewed with what were (to me) essentially true scale marines with some interesting new ideas. If primaris were a bad thing for GW, they'd have backed off by now, they haven't (though they have toned down their approach to how they are marketed, which could be telling).

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Also folk don't ever stop their purchases. They build new Chapters, companies or just add to their massive forces. GW show massive armies in White Dwarf frequently and many Firstborn fans will attest to buying each year like I do.

Some do this, not all. Some fans absolutely do stop purchasing except for when NEW things come out.

 

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

We aren't few in number because we couldn't make Tactical squads in the top 10. Lastly, would GW mention us in several articles if we were so insignificant?

I would say this is anecdotal evidence. The actual fact is that whilst there are some players (like me) that do primaris only and there are others that do firstborn only, there's also plenty that happily mix the two and find the entire debate very strange.

 

50 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

MKX just isn't as good looking or as iconic as MK7.  Proportions are irrelevant, as all the Firstborn units done in recent years with the new proportions (30k MK6, Space Marine Heroes Mk7, CSM Mixed Marks, GK and BT characters, etc) are all markedly superior in design and detail to Primaris units.

subjective opinion is subjective, You're welcome to it but nothing about it is fact. For me the humble intercessor kit was miles better than the mk6 set (which i found to be hugely disappointing) But thats the joy of opinions, we can both be right and wrong at the same time from our own perspectives.