More firstborn units lumped together or going away.

[Marshal Reinhard]

If there's one thing I truly despise in these discussions it is the notion that if you're an old timer you have to like old guard more than the new or you're not a true fan. Speaking in aggregates you'll find countless adherents in either camp from either demographics. Not calling out anyone specifically in the thread, or am even unsure if this particular argument has aired yet here, but hey, since people were ranting. 

 

Also I do not especially care for the constant maneuvering to get proponents of the new to be put on trial for the new happening in the first place either. 

 

Fact is, Primaris happened. It happened over half a decade ago. The counter factual, Primaris not having happened, would forever remain untrue from then on. We're not in that timeline and will never be.

 

GW said you would still be able to use your classic marines. They exist in addition to the Primaris. The Legends concept was introduced so that no longer in production would still be usable. They didn't make a commitment to keep producing all existing kits forever. They didn't make a commitment to renew every existing kit forever, they didn't make a commitment that the ability to use OOP models would forever be up to date and the most highly competetive and available to all modes of play. They didn't make a commitment to... you get a the picture.

 

ALSO DO NOTE: THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH IS NOT MEANT TO BE READ AS AN ENDORSEMENT OF, JUSTIFICATION OF, LETTING OFF OF THE HOOK OR AN EXCUSE FOR OR ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT WHAT GW SAID. 

 

GW Spoke corporate speak to you, and has skirted close enough within the borders of what they said and left enough plausible deniability. You ought to have seen it coming. If some frater here told you otherwise, I'm sorry, take it up with them? Again, I'm not endorsing this. But I'm also very sick of seeing "But they lied!" being brought up as if a point is being made. I also fail to see any avenue of constructive dialouge down that avenue. I do not see why anyone here would or should have to be put on spot to justify GW's actions

 

If you think you classical fans are the only ones with reasons to get annoyed you have another thing coming to ya.

 

Still, expecting to be king of respecfully disagree's in this thread. Let's see if I'm right.

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes, lying is immoral. Doesn't change the fact that believing an obvious lie makes one gullible. When AOS launched GW also said you could use your existing FB models with it. And whilst that was true for a short while, now most of those doesn't have valid rules anymore (in many cases not even Legends rules.) 

[Kallas]

12 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Doesn't change the fact that believing an obvious lie makes one gullible.

Even though when we didn't believe it and we said so, we got shouted down? It's like I've been saying: no matter which way we turned, we were always chastised for not wanting our stuff to go away, and even now you're still doing the same crap.

 

It's a loaded term, and I'm not saying that Firstborn fans are victims, but I'm just going to use the normal phrase because it's relevant to this particular part of the discussion (ie, GW lying): victim blaming is not cool. Blaming people for someone else lying is just  obnoxious.

[Crimson Longinus]

15 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Even though when we didn't believe it and we said so, we got shouted down? It's like I've been saying: no matter which way we turned, we were always chastised for not wanting our stuff to go away, and even now you're still doing the same crap.

This is not a fight. If someone told you minimarines were never going away, they were wrong. Perhaps they genuinely believed it though. Nevertheless, I certainly never told anyone that. Quite opposite, I've warned people not to invest in models that will be phased out. 

 

15 minutes ago, Kallas said:

It's a loaded term, and I'm not saying that Firstborn fans are victims, but I'm just going to use the normal phrase because it's relevant to this particular part of the discussion (ie, GW lying): victim blaming is not cool. Blaming people for someone else lying is just  obnoxious.

I am not blaming anyone, It sucks, but it has been plain for six years that this is happening; you've had six years to come to grips with it. 

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

If someone told you minimarines were never going away, they were wrong. Perhaps they genuinely believed it though.

Perhaps they genuinely believed it because GW said so.

 

You're making excuses and blaming people for the lies GW put out.

 

You didn't believe them, neither did I, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous to let them off the hook for such a lie; and it makes their decisions around Firstborn even less respectable - they lied, they knew they were lying, and they allowed people to buy products they knew would be ditched.

[Berzul]

3 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

This is not a fight. If someone told you minimarines were never going away, they were wrong. Perhaps they genuinely believed it though. Nevertheless, I certainly never told anyone that. Quite opposite, I've warned people not to invest in models that will be phased out

 

To be fair, it did happen. I understand you didn't say this, but boy oh boy was I told by many people that I was a crybaby complaining over nothing, throughout the years, for pointing out that this was happening more and more.

 

I understand how, after the way End Times for Warhammer Fantasy Battles blew up on Games Workshop's face, they figured they'd try a prolonged approach with regards to retiring the Space Marines of old.

 

Considering how it feels to be told, at long last, that we ARE getting phased out, I wonder how we might have reacted if they had been honest and upfront about retiring our armies, six years ago.

 

Would we have reacted better or worse than how we are reacting to it, now?

[WAR]

=][= Everyone needs to play nice and remain calm.  If not the thread will be closed so everyone can cool down for a few days. =][=

[Crimson Longinus]

9 minutes ago, Kallas said:

You didn't believe them, neither did I, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous to let them off the hook for such a lie; and it makes their decisions around Firstborn even less respectable - they lied, they knew they were lying, and they allowed people to buy products they knew would be ditched.

 

Yes. And they did the same with AOS. What can I do about it? What you're gonna do about it?

 

It is annoying, but marketing speech is often misleading. 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Crimson Longinus

[Crimson Longinus]

5 minutes ago, Berzul said:

Considering how it feels to be told, at long last, that we ARE getting phased out, I wonder how we might have reacted if they had been honest and upfront about retiring our armies, six years ago.

 

Would we have reacted better or worse than how we are reacting to it, now?

 

That is a good question. I assume people would have reacted worse then. We've had six years to get used to primaris marines, and due being featured in starter sets, most marine players probably have significant amount of them now. 

[Berzul]

7 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

That is a good question. I assume people would have reacted worse then. We've had six years to get used to primaris marines, and due being featured in starter sets, most marine players probably have significant amount of them now. 

 

Im not entirely sure.

 

I, for one, have some Primaris sets. That I got as new releases of editions. It's true. Only NOW have I decided to assemble them and use them, however. 

 

For all this six long years I've wished for GW to do exactly what they are doing now. Rip off the band aid and be honest with us about our armies. As much as I may dislike many primaris units, and mourn my Firstborn, the impact of this decision by GW, to me, has been incredibly positive.

 

Would it have been even more so if GW had not given me six years of lies and uncertainty, making me grow in my disliking of them as a whole over time?

 

Or is it BECAUSE they lies for over half a decade and made me feel like a fool before my peers for claiming that they were, that I feel so liberated now that they have come clean?

 

I honestly don't know.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Even though when we didn't believe it and we said so, we got shouted down? It's like I've been saying: no matter which way we turned, we were always chastised for not wanting our stuff to go away, and even now you're still doing the same crap.

 

It's a loaded term, and I'm not saying that Firstborn fans are victims, but I'm just going to use the normal phrase because it's relevant to this particular part of the discussion (ie, GW lying): victim blaming is not cool. Blaming people for someone else lying is just  obnoxious.

 

(1.) It's not happening, stop fearmongering!

 

(2.) Okay, it's happening in some limited cases, but you're overexaggerating the extent

 

(3.) Okay, it's happening, but you need to get over it, there's nothing you can do

 

(4.) It's happened and it's a good thing! It couldn't have happened any other way. You would have been a fool to not have seen it happening.

 

I see this general line of reasoning a lot, and on subjects much more important than future space soldiers 

[One Paul Murray]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

Even though when we didn't believe it and we said so, we got shouted down? It's like I've been saying: no matter which way we turned, we were always chastised for not wanting our stuff to go away, and even now you're still doing the same crap.

 

It's a loaded term, and I'm not saying that Firstborn fans are victims, but I'm just going to use the normal phrase because it's relevant to this particular part of the discussion (ie, GW lying): victim blaming is not cool. Blaming people for someone else lying is just  obnoxious.

As has been said further up the thread here, GW never said that they were going to maintain every kit in perpetuity. Legends has existed for ages so other kits have gone this way before and more will go again.

 

While I do sympathise with people here to a large extent, at the same time GW has actively encouraged people to carry on using the models, they are just moving away from making them anymore. 

 

As a player of WHFB for many years I could not believe what happened there, but I don't feel like this is the same thing. It feels rather to me like the fact that you and others have been so convinced that this would happen, that this is not so much about the specific units anymore.

 

The fact is, unless the setting stayed absolutely static forever, there was always going to be the risk that eventually units got canned. Nobody can surely be expecting that it would have never moved on or advanced.

[Captain Idaho]

4 hours ago, Dracos said:

That’s an interesting statement considering the vitriolic rant you went on. By the time you got to your second point I couldn’t remember feeling so attacked for returning to the game based on the sculptures throughout the Primaris line since the first couple years of 8th.
 

By time you were done I felt like I must an idiot for appreciating the Primaris aesthetics or a traitorous *cuss* responsible for the death kneel of the Firstborn. I appreciated Blindhamsters reasoned responses. I don’t always bite my tongue so well when I feel attacked for my game choices.
 

You say we should avoid being confrontational but I’m a bit amazed someone with your responsibilities would ignite such a contentious discussion, most which seemed to have died down quite a bit until just recently.  
 

 

PS: only my beloved Brothers could have such disputes over a line reimagined. Consider this, GW comes out and says all the genestealers have died from a virus that plagues all the tyranid hive fleets. In its wake the fleet created a similar slightly bigger resculpt with specialized options. I’ll bet my headstone the reaction would resemble nothing akin the hate anger and guilt I feel Firstborn players have thrown at those of us who have switched or signed onto the Primaris line. 

 

Please quote and show everyone where I attacked you personally?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, you're reading into it incorrectly. 

 

Unless you are in fact James Workshop? Then yeah, I am disgusted with your company.

[Captain Idaho]

3 hours ago, Dracos said:

What was first Kallas? Chicken or the egg?

 

Did Primaris fans dump on Firstborn … or did the Firstborn players lose their minds when Primaris showed up?

 

I’ve been active or lurking on this site for over twenty years and left for a handful because of the hateful arguments that showed up back in 4th edition. I almost left a year after coming back in 8th. 
 

it was very clear to me that most of the poorly acting Primaris players were acting in response to the hate for the Primaris models and lore, made to feel their choices were wrong and that they didn’t belong in a forum with the true original space marines.

 

That kind of hate died down quite a bit through 9th and I had hoped such gatekeeping mind sets had come to terms Primaris had a place. Today seems to be an example of how easy it is the prejudice of those who were here first to rise their heads in anger and hate again. 

 

 

Never once have I insulted a Primaris fan. See, here is the problem. You equate me not liking how Primaris have been introduced, that they replace my models I bought and invested time with, to somehow be an attack on you. Or me criticising GW with somehow an attack on you.

 

It's like someone saying they don't like the Centurions models and me feeling personally attacked because I do like them. I couldn't care less if someone did! And people do all the time.

 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

25 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

 

Or maybe, just maybe, you're reading into it incorrectly. 

 

 

Oh I remember that line during my issues.

 

Given the choice I would have just liked the standard marine stuff upscaled to Primaris size.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[DemonGSides]

59 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Please quote and show everyone where I attacked you personally?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, you're reading into it incorrectly. 

 

Unless you are in fact James Workshop? Then yeah, I am disgusted with your company.

 

LMAO someone's defensive.  He never said you insulted him personally, he said the way you ranted about primaris was insulting to people who liked primaris.

  

59 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Or maybe, just maybe, you're reading into it incorrectly.

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

He never said you insulted him personally

5 hours ago, Dracos said:

By the time you got to your second point I couldn’t remember feeling so attacked for returning to the game based on the sculptures throughout the Primaris line since the first couple years of 8th.

 

You sure they didn't?

"I don't remember feeling so attacked [...] since the first couple years of 9th" - certainly reads like "I felt attacked."

[Captain Idaho]

 

19 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

LMAO someone's defensive.  He never said you insulted him personally, he said the way you ranted about primaris was insulting to people who liked primaris.

 

Emphasis mine so you can see it clearly as you missed it first time round.

 

5 hours ago, Dracos said:

By the time you got to your second point I couldn’t remember feeling so attacked for returning to the game based on the sculptures throughout the Primaris line since the first couple years of 8th.
 

*snip*

 

I don’t always bite my tongue so well when I feel attacked for my game choices.

 

[Gederas]

Hey guys what's goin-

 

-insert Community room on fire scene here because B&C doesn't like Tenor it seems-

 

YIKES

Edited July 27, 2023 by Gederas

[DemonGSides]

Guys I know this is hard, he can say "I" in reference to something you were saying about ALL primaris players.

He wasn't insulted personally about it, he was insulted on behalf of primaris players because you're going nuts about people being mean to you about firstborn, yet you can't actually SHOW anyone being mean to you about Primaris besides Orange Knight, who's "mean" is "I am not concerned about losing firstborn and it's fine that they got rid of them."

Which is hardly mean.

[Captain Idaho]

What are you talking about?

[Berzul]

16 minutes ago, Gederas said:

Hey guys what's goin-

 

-insert Community room on fire scene here-

 

YIKES

 

Darkest timeline, indeed.

[DemonGSides]

18 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

What are you talking about?

 

What do you not understand?  He didn't say you personally attacked him, he said the way you talk about primaris feels like a personal attack against anyone who likes primaris.

 

Didn't think it was that hard to understand. Combined with you and Kallas going into every thread and saying that primaris players are mean to you, but not finding any evidence to show, is tiresome. 

[Gederas]

Okay, now that my browser is no longer stuck on CAPSLOCK ALL THE TIME (because that would have made any statements from me seem far angrier than I am, and holding shift to type everything was actually legitimately irritating) I can continue with what I meant to post in the previous comment before my browser decided I wished to be MAD ANGY

 

 

So, this thread seems to have gone over as swimmingly as I expected it would when I saw the title. Lot of you-know-what flinging and heated stuff.

 

 

There's only one thing I really have to say that wasn't already said, and that's more towards a specific frater:

Captain Idaho

 

I get what you were trying to say on your post on the first page, but the way it was worded I, at first, took in the same way Dracos did. You didn't outright insult Primaris fans, but there was some wording that could have been taken that way. I had to reread that rant twice over because I was like "There's no way a moderator of all people is saying what I think they're saying, right?". And after reading it over, I did get what you were saying but it was kind of worded in a manner that could easily be misread if someone was reading it and looking at it from the "hates Primaris and their Players"-viewpoint.

(also I do find amusing though that your aforementioned rant on page 1 was basically the match in the gasoline bucket that this thread is and then you go "let's not be too confrontational with each other", kinda too late for that mate )

 

 

 

That being said, this kind of vitriol WHILE COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE AND PLENTY JUSTIFIED, is getting to the point where I go onto B&C, see it on so many threads, I then look at all of my 40k and 30k stuff and go "I should just get rid of all this..." because it's tiring and exhausting.

 

 

 

 

Fraters, come on. You're better than this. We're all better than this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

* also I like Primaris and I agree: Desolators are straight goofy, their guns look like they were intended as two or three different weapons and ended up combined together. WHETHER OR NOT the goofiness is charming or derp is subjective. I've actually seen someone's Desolators guns painted like actual yellow/orange/green NERF guns and.... It actually looked good. I might end up doing the brightly colored Desolator guns myself tbh

** also also: Reinhard "expecting to be king of respecfully disagree's in this thread. Let's see if I'm right" -proceeds to get (as of this writing) no Respectfully Disagrees reacts-

Edited July 28, 2023 by Gederas

[Captain Idaho]

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

What do you not understand?  He didn't say you personally attacked him, he said the way you talk about primaris feels like a personal attack against anyone who likes primaris.

 

Didn't think it was that hard to understand. Combined with you and Kallas going into every thread and saying that primaris players are mean to you, but not finding any evidence to show, is tiresome. 

 

Here you go, as I think you're missing it again: