More firstborn units lumped together or going away.

[Kallas]

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

subjective opinion is subjective

Yes. It's almost like Idaho's point is that often subjective opinion has been touted as definitive fact in many cases. And especially when people say, "Primaris look better" - they don't, that's an opinion.

 

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I am actually saddened that some users on this forum, judging by their comments over a long span of time, appear to have enjoyed little about their faction over the last 6 years. That's no way to engage in the hobby. 

The problem for some of us is that GW stripped our faction's identity away in favour of, well, Primaris. People liked their faction and then it was reduced further and further every year - yes, the writing was on the wall (and some of us said so early on, and got shouted at by people like you, for being alarmist; only for people like you to change their tune later on and start claiming that the writing was on the wall and for us to get over it!)

 

Fundamentally, this is the problem: people like you are fine because you wanted this, but then you harp on about it like everyone should be happy about these changes, and get upset when people aren't. Not everyone liked these radical changes for the sake of radical change (well, for the sake of sales specifically), but they've always been told to just accept their beloved faction being massively altered away from the things they love/d and this is mindbogglingly obnoxious. It is being told to just get over it, while simultaneously being told that the new stuff is better (which is subjective) and that they shouldn't care so much!

 

The hobby is an investment of time, money and effort for anyone involved. No one likes their time, money and effort being stripped away, reduced and essentially removed - and this is even more disliked when they see similar situations happening elsewhere (in the same hobby) where it's done in a way they see as better - ie, models being updated but retaining the same identity (eg, all of the other models that get updated and not completely replaced, such as Howling Banshees, Cadian Shock Troops, etc) instead of being replaced by something else that is just...not the same, doesn't have the same identity as what was lost.

 

Ultimately, it's all irrelevant now. GW has done what they did, and there's no going back, for good or ill.

[Captain Idaho]

How can it be anecdotal evidence when GW themselves claimed it? They could be lying and I wouldn't put it past them, but then why bother when they're just replacing Firstborn anyway?

 

Ultimately I felt like I wanted to have a little rant about it. I know there are plenty of people with similar opinions on it and I felt like supporting their positions with my own.

 

We shall see how GW does in the next couple years, as they don't receive my money or money from others like me. Maybe they'll have loads of new blood that replaces us, with those who joined in 8th-10th being sufficiently retained also. Maybe they won't.

 

I'm sticking with Necrons (ebay) and Epic right now.

[Blindhamster]

7 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

How can it be anecdotal evidence when GW themselves claimed it? They could be lying and I wouldn't put it past them, but then why bother when they're just replacing Firstborn anyway?

becuase you're touting those people as "firstborn fans", when in all likelyhood they're simply "space marine fans" that dont really care about the divide one way or another. And probably will feel somewhat less upset if/when their stuff goes to legends so long as they still have space marines they can push around on the table. (again, I myself listed just a few of the things I've had and loved using over the years and can't now, including the multiple units of veteran intercessors I'd not long finished - but I don't create topics to vent about it, I get on with it and just admire my cool models on their shelf).

 

GWs official line on it now is at least clearer than its ever been before.
If they're selling well, they wont go anywhere.

We'll have to wait and see

  

7 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

We shall see how GW does in the next couple years, as they don't receive my money or money from others like me. Maybe they'll have loads of new blood that replaces us, with those who joined in 8th-10th being sufficiently retained also. Maybe they won't.

 

Why does it need to be new blood? I've been in the hobby very likely almost as long as you. Similarly, there will be new players that did in fact prefer the firstborn models. Honestly though, I dont think any of the angst there has been over the primaris/firstborn divide has really affected GW, they seem to be doing just fine financially. Much like GW proper isn't brining back warhammer fantasy, because whilst it was a big deal, ultimately the end times and introduction of AoS didn't kill them, and creating primaris hasn't either. The internet is generally just where the loud people like to be themselves about the things they care about, many others just quietly go about their hobby, not being anywhere near as vocal one way or another.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Yes. It's almost like Idaho's point is that often subjective opinion has been touted as definitive fact in many cases. And especially when people say, "Primaris look better" - they don't, that's an opinion.

He didn't put it that way though, his choice of phrasing suggests they're wrong and that his point is fact. Maybe wasn't his intent.

 

regardless, of everything, like it or not this:

9 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Ultimately, it's all irrelevant now. GW has done what they did, and there's no going back, for good or ill.

is the state of play.

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Orange Knight]

7 minutes ago, Kallas said:

 

 

Fundamentally, this is the problem: people like you are fine because you wanted this, but then you harp on about it like everyone should be happy about these changes, and get upset when people aren't. Not everyone liked these radical changes for the sake of radical change (well, for the sake of sales specifically), but they've always been told to just accept their beloved faction being massively altered away from the things they love/d and this is mindbogglingly obnoxious. It is being told to just get over it, while simultaneously being told that the new stuff is better (which is subjective) and that they shouldn't care so much!

 

 

I didn't want or ask for anything. I simply made a choice to accept the new direction that GW envisaged for the range.

 

No one can say they were objectively wrong in doing so. I simply wanted to retain my excitement for new releases and engage with the hobby and community as time went on in a positive and optimistic way.

[Berzul]

The thing that is most hilariously frustrating about the whole affair is that:

 

4 minutes ago, Kallas said:

yes, the writing was on the wall (and some of us said so early on, and got shouted at by people like you, for being alarmist; only for people like you to change their tune later on and start claiming that the writing was on the wall and for us to get over it!)

 

Indeed, I had so many friends in my local gaming community calling me every name under the sun for claiming that this was going on. It was evident six years ago, when the first squad of Intercessors came out. But no, people would call me a crazy alarmist and a butthurt hobbyist that was complaining over nothing. 

 

In that sense, GW did it right, in spreading this replacement across time like they did. The change was so gradual that some people didn't even realize the change was happening at all, or denied it from happening. Then, finally, GW goes ahead and openly throws a bunch of models into legends, making it impossible to argue now that the change was not real. And now, only now, those same people start saying that it was so clear from the start, that we should have known, that we needed to get on board with it from the beginning because the writing was on the wall.

 

And you are just left there, listening to these people, with your mouth agape and scratching your head, thinking if you might not have just gone mad.

 

There is nothing to it but to get over it, it's true. We can either leave the hobby for what it was, or stay in the hobby that it now is. No more to it than that. But still, it was very frustrating to spend years telling everyone that this was going on, get ridiculed for it in many cases, and now having GW pull the curtain down and reveal that it IS the plan, and have everyone start claiming that it was obvious from the start and to now get over it.

 

Personally, I find the whole thing so frustrating, it is hilarious.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Guys let's not be too confrontational with each other. Also, to poke fun at ourselves and lighten the tone, consider this:

 

Cadia got blown up and they still got new models in a range refresh whereas Firstborn didn't 

[Orange Knight]

It was always going to happen. The moment that classic characters started crossing the Rubicon was a categorical confirmation.

 

In effect, the Firstborn are now the Primaris.

 

I simply hoped that 6 years would be enough for people to generally accept the new direction or to walk away. I think for those deciding on remaining in a state of limbo, with a negative outlook at the new releases, was the worst outcome.

[Berzul]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

I simply hoped that 6 years would be enough for people to generally accept the new direction or to walk away. I think for those deciding on remaining in a state of limbo, with a negative outlook at the new releases, was the worst outcome.

 

Which is the same reason I argued that the decision by GW might be good in the long run.

 

So far, its been 6 years of seeing the line of units get replaced, but not really. It has been uncertain, and you have had the gnawing idea that one day the Firstborn WOULD be gone, but no confirmation. And as it took years to get here, that uncertainty managed to grow ever more annoying and troubling.

 

Now, at last, we get the first clear, open, unequivocal, and decisive decision by GW to retire, forever and for good, the Firstborn. And it is quite liberating. THIS exact decision by GW, I think, has had a bigger and more powerful effect in me accepting the damned Primaris once and for all as the only alternative to continue playing, than anything else I've seen anyone else do with the game.

 

Again, certainty of a bad thing can be, in a way, better than uncertainty of a good thing.

 

I don't like about 65% of the Primaris line. Fine. But, if I want ot play my army, I have to use Primaris. And while I would absolutely rather play my Firstborn over anything else, if it was possible, the removal of the choice between Primaris and Firstborn makes it easier to just play the Primaris and move on. 

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I didn't want or ask for anything.

I'm sorry, but this is outright lying, or even gaslighting: you were literally arguing in favour of removing Firstborn, and in support of increasing Primaris presence. I disagree with your reasoning, but you can have your opinions as I can have mine - but saying you didn't ask for Primaris to become dominant is absolutely untrue and disingenuous.

 

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

No one can say they were objectively wrong in doing so

Oh, I absolutely agree: people can enjoy the things they like, and liking Primaris is fundamentally a personal choice. I guess my problem comes from the fact that people, like me, like(d) Firstborn, but now we are not allowed that choice because GW has decided to bin the lot of them (and also trying to eat their cake and have it by using Legends as if it matters to many folks in the hobby) and Primaris are the only way for Marines now.

[Captain Idaho]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I simply hoped that 6 years would be enough for people to generally accept the new direction or to walk away. I think for those deciding on remaining in a state of limbo, with a negative outlook at the new releases, was the worst outcome.

 

GW was at fault for telling us a bold faced lie that Firstborn weren't going anywhere. 

 

But I've now made the decision to walk away from 40K spending and investment in time (again as I mentioned I'll finish my Necrons through ebay). If I've made that choice, others will have also.

 

13 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

He didn't put it that way though, his choice of phrasing suggests they're wrong and that his point is fact. Maybe wasn't his intent.

 

Sorry it might have been not clear in the rant... I was using an example of a counter point to the subjective line given by many that Primaris are superior. 

 

I clarified at the end in the summary but I admit... it was a bloody rant!

[Robbienw]

18 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

subjective opinion is subjective, You're welcome to it but nothing about it is fact. For me the humble intercessor kit was miles better than the mk6 set (which i found to be hugely disappointing) But thats the joy of opinions, we can both be right and wrong at the same time from our own perspectives.

 

I do find it bizarre that people need to say this.  Yes of course its subjective, just like your opinion Primaris are nice models is subjective.  Is that not taken as read?  There is no need to point out subjectivity when no one has said 'this is absolute objective fact'.  Maybe it is some kind of insecurity.

 

There are some facts though - many share my opinion on the MK7 marine aethesetic.  Many want it to persist, and don't view Primaris as a legitimate range replacement, so have no interest in 40k marines going forward until GW brings back the MK7 look, which could be a while.  Largely, people who want the mk7 aethesetic to persist don't have a problem with Primaris existing, they just want the classic MK7 Terminator/Tactical/Assault/Devastator/Scout marine pradigm to still exist also. 

 

Wanting firstborn to go away so Primaris are 'supreme' is really odd.  

[Orange Knight]

My stance at the current time is clear. I meant that I never asked for Primaris to be introduced or the old Marines to be replaced in the first place.

 

Once GW's direction started to become more clear, and in response to a negative attitude from some people in the community, my own stance became more firm.

[Blindhamster]

6 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

I do find it bizarre that people need to say this.  Yes of course its subjective, just like your opinion Primaris are nice models is subjective.  Is that not taken as read?  There is no need to point out subjectivity when no one has said 'this is absolute objective fact'.  Maybe it is some kind of insecurity.

I think its more, that I generally try to include "in my view, in my opinion" etc in these types of discussions, because for some, they act like they're stating facts, it's not through insecurity (what would I have to be insecure about? Not really sure...) it's about clarity in written form.

 

8 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

There are some facts though - many share my opinion on the MK7 marine aethesetic.  Many want it to persist, and don't view Primaris as a legitimate range replacement, so have no interest in 40k marines going forward until GW brings back the MK7 look, which could be a while.  Largely, people who want the mk7 aethesetic to persist don't have a problem with Primaris existing, they just want the classic MK7 Terminator/Tactical/Assault/Devastator/Scout marine pradigm to still exist also. 

Many don't share it though, so whats your point?

 

Also, we're in luck, if its the paradigm you want as we now know:

Terminators are staying

 

we also have on (at this point) fairly good authority that assault squads and scouts are staying too.

 

Devastators and Tacticals have been stated as remaining for now too (I suspect they'll remain until a point where intercessors and tacitcals become one and the same, which I still think will happen, not sure what'll happen with devastators long term though).

 

We even know the MkVII aesthetic isn't being completely removed at least, as we've seen an updated version of the MkVII helm on a sternguard model and I genuinely think we'll see more/better integration of older mks shown in upcoming MPKs, I bet there will even be some "tacticus" models without the knee trim too.

 

Ultimately the shift to MkX is the same as the shift from MkVI to MkVII was years ago, we'll still see MkVII around, it just won't be the "dominant" mark anymore.

 

13 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

Wanting firstborn to go away so Primaris are 'supreme' is really odd.

I don't much care directly if firstborn go or stay, I've not bought a firstborn model in probably nearly a decade at this point (as mentioned, Id become burned out on them prior to primaris being announced anyway). I think GW /MIGHT/ be trying to smooth things out a bit now though, I do reckon when we see more "primaris" kits, they'll be primaris size but start sporting more elements of older armour. Which would be cool.

[Robbienw]

19 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I think its more, that I generally try to include "in my view, in my opinion" etc in these types of discussions, because for some, they act like they're stating facts, it's not through insecurity (what would I have to be insecure about? Not really sure...) it's about clarity in written form.

 

 

Again, this feels like some kind of insecurity that you are trying to dress up with semantics.  It goes without saying its a subjective opinion, there is no need to add a qualifier every single time i state my opinion on the look of a model or range of models, that would be odd.  If i said it was 'objective fact/its a fact', fair enough, but i did not.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Many don't share it though, so whats your point?

 

My points were in the text you quoted.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

There's definitely a section of customers that prefer Primaris and others who prefer Firstborn. The real question is how much can either be tapped into by releasing kits for the other, or driven away by removal of the other?

 

I genuinely think the customer retention is going to be harmed. There hasn't been a slow death despite what it felt like for all of us (myself included) as from GW's perspective everything was still valid.

 

Now GW have crossed their own rubicon and declared the death of Firstborn through their actions, so I believe this is the real moment real dissatisfaction translates into a drop in sales, or not as the case may be. It wasn't when 8th dropped, it's now.

 

Even just 20% of Space Marines fans quitting is a big percentage, so establishing just how many people decrease their sales compared to anything else is going to be very interesting. 

[Bouargh]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Even just 20% of Space Marines fans quitting is a big percentage, so establishing just how many people decrease their sales compared to anything else is going to be very interesting. 

 

I do not think this will reach this level. I even doubt it will happen (or if it happens it will be reported as being relationned to the current economic slow down rather than to discontent people). If the 40k age base is still centered mainly on 14-20 y.o. as it used to be, it means that most of the player base is into the hobby since Primaris being the focal point and the poster boyz. Noone in this band age will really miss any first born, as anyway next codex range will compensate the phasing out in a way or another. In the end it is morally affecting mainly to nostalgic vets as we can be... 

 

Sad, hard to swallow, maybe. But I am afraid it is the brutal reality we have to face. sniff.

 

In fact I am even wondering why the phasing out has not been more intensive this time... Why is the Predator still there for example?

[Dracos]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Guys let's not be too confrontational with each other. Also, to poke fun at ourselves and lighten the tone, consider this:

 

Cadia got blown up and they still got new models in a range refresh whereas Firstborn didn't 

That’s an interesting statement considering the vitriolic rant you went on. By the time you got to your second point I couldn’t remember feeling so attacked for returning to the game based on the sculptures throughout the Primaris line since the first couple years of 8th.
 

By time you were done I felt like I must an idiot for appreciating the Primaris aesthetics or a traitorous *cuss* responsible for the death kneel of the Firstborn. I appreciated Blindhamsters reasoned responses. I don’t always bite my tongue so well when I feel attacked for my game choices.
 

You say we should avoid being confrontational but I’m a bit amazed someone with your responsibilities would ignite such a contentious discussion, most which seemed to have died down quite a bit until just recently.  
 

 

PS: only my beloved Brothers could have such disputes over a line reimagined. Consider this, GW comes out and says all the genestealers have died from a virus that plagues all the tyranid hive fleets. In its wake the fleet created a similar slightly bigger resculpt with specialized options. I’ll bet my headstone the reaction would resemble nothing akin the hate anger and guilt I feel Firstborn players have thrown at those of us who have switched or signed onto the Primaris line. 

[Berzul]

Perhaps GW should have just split the army in two.

 

Make a Firstborn codex, and a Primaris codex, and keep them as separate armies for all intents and purposes.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

There's definitely a section of customers that prefer Primaris and others who prefer Firstborn. The real question is how much can either be tapped into by releasing kits for the other, or driven away by removal of the other?

 

I genuinely think the customer retention is going to be harmed. There hasn't been a slow death despite what it felt like for all of us (myself included) as from GW's perspective everything was still valid.

 

Now GW have crossed their own rubicon and declared the death of Firstborn through their actions, so I believe this is the real moment real dissatisfaction translates into a drop in sales, or not as the case may be. It wasn't when 8th dropped, it's now.

 

Even just 20% of Space Marines fans quitting is a big percentage, so establishing just how many people decrease their sales compared to anything else is going to be very interesting. 

Maybe a poll of the forum to get a feel for how many space marine players will quit the hobby as a result would be interesting

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

Snip

again, what precisely am I supposed to be feeling insecure about? Considering a large part of Idahos post was around the idea that people stating primaris look better as fact, but it’s rare to see people put such qualifiers? Or are you suggesting that Idahos entire point is also from some form of misguided insecurity? if so, fair enough I suppose. 
 

I think when these discussions come up, separating what people are stating as facts from what people are stating as opinions is fairly important most of the time, because people like to also accuse each other of stating things as facts regularly (as seen with the post that kicked off a lot of this discussion). You’re correct it’s possibly semantics, but it’s also the internet where it’s harder to understand intent, so clarity is important to any reasoned discussion, there’s a reason “IMO” as an abbreviation exists. It’s also the internet where there’s plenty of people that just enjoy being trolls, so being able to tell when that’s happening can be helpful too lol.

 

As for your second response, if the extent of your point was “I like mk7, so do some others, I want the existing paradigm to stay in place” fair enough, I responded to that one mostly anyway, I assumed there was maybe meant to be more to it, sorry about that. 

[DemonGSides]

40 minutes ago, Dracos said:

That’s an interesting statement considering the vitriolic rant you went on. By the time you got to your second point I couldn’t remember feeling so attacked for returning to the game based on the sculptures throughout the Primaris line since the first couple years of 8th.
 

By time you were done I felt like I must an idiot for appreciating the Primaris aesthetics or a traitorous *cuss* responsible for the death kneel of the Firstborn. I appreciated Blindhamsters reasoned responses. I don’t always bite my tongue so well when I feel attacked for my game choices.
 

You say we should avoid being confrontational but I’m a bit amazed someone with your responsibilities would ignite such a contentious discussion, most which seemed to have died down quite a bit until just recently. 

 

Nothing new, unfortunately.

 

33 minutes ago, Berzul said:

Perhaps GW should have just split the army in two.

 

Make a Firstborn codex, and a Primaris codex, and keep them as separate armies for all intents and purposes.

They should've just had Primaris be upscaled Space Marines.  Then people could play with them however they want.

I mean, I already do.  I've got a "tac squad" that I put together in 9th that's just Intercessors with a kitbashed Heavy weapon (Took the big gun from the Hellblasters) and a Special weapon (Grabbed a plasmagun and the pose doesn't make it look too tiny).  Sarge even has a backpack banner above his head.  I think they look pretty freaking cool, especially with the bits and bobs of BA stuff I grabbed from the BA tactical box to bling em out even further.  They are, head and shoulders (both physically and visually) cooler than the BA tactical squad, which is easily one of the best First born kits ever produced (Great bits, great theme, great poses, great molds/aesthetics), because it manages to bring the cool stuff from the past and mix it with the cool stuff from the present.

There was definitely a right way to do this that everyone's happy with, and GW didn't do it.  But by this point, we knew they weren't going to do the right thing (Though the Terminator and Sternguard stuff smacks of what I'm talking about), because 6 years ago they created Primaris.  No one should've felt that their Firstborn were going to last forever at that point, even if other first born fans were telling you that they were; posters here will love to vacillate between Primaris fans being either cutthroat and rude ("Primaris Uber alles!  Everyone old deserve to die!") or reassuring and understanding ("no need to doom and gloom, Firstborn will be around forever!"), but ultimately it was always their comrades in arms of "First Born ONLY" players who were huffing copium about the models sticking around.  Pretty much anyone not trying to actively bury their head in the sand saw where Primaris were going when Intercessors came out, regardless of what some MARKETING from a CORPORATION said.

Also, lest we forget, the units are still in Legends and totally usable but I'm not interested in hashing that out again.

Edited July 27, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Kallas]

34 minutes ago, Dracos said:

I’ll bet my headstone the reaction would resemble nothing akin the hate anger and guilt I feel Firstborn players have thrown at those of us who have switched or signed onto the Primaris line. 

And the hate and vitriol that the Primaris players have heaped on Firstborn players who *shock* didn't want their stuff removed? What about that, or is that just ignored because "get over it"?

 

35 minutes ago, Dracos said:

By the time you got to your second point I couldn’t remember feeling so attacked for returning to the game based on the sculptures throughout the Primaris line since the first couple years of 8th.

I mean, this is the crux of his argument:  

5 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

This myth people throw around that Primaris are better models is a method of arguing from an authority and elitism and isn't true.

A lot of Primaris defenders (for lack of a better term: those who are verbosely projecting that Primaris needed to happen, and that Firstborn needed to be removed) tend to resort to such argument, "oh, they look better / they're better models / they're better quality" without that actually being true: all new models are better quality and use better technology sculpts than previous models, but they're not inherently a better model, because that depends on several things, including style and other personal preferences such as poseability and variety; and the further counterpoint is that Primaris have the better quality sculpts...but that is not an inherently Primaris quality; any new sculpt would be better, even if it were a new Firstborn model, and we can see this kind of thing is the few Firstborn/Firstborn-adjacent models we've seen - the Black Templar Castellan is a 'Primaris-scale' model with basically zero Primaris design influences; the Terminator resculpt is fantastic and has zero Primaris/Gravis/Mk X design influence.

 

As for the rest of them, they're critiques of Primaris models and none of it is insulting you, the hobbyist, for wanting to collect them - saying you're being attacked by his critiques is pretty outlandish. Probably the closest comments are "Eliminators, Reivers, Infiltrators and Incursors look like ChatGPT was asked to design a Call of Duty or Fortnite Space Marine." which is still a criticism of the models based on Idaho's own preferences/dislikes, and yet you say this is like attacking you?

 

Maybe I'm missing which part you're being "attacked" in - could you highlight which bits were making you feel that way?

 

7 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

posters here will love to vacillate between Primaris fans being either cutthroat and rude ("Primaris Uber alles!  Everyone old deserve to die!") or reassuring and understanding ("no need to doom and gloom, Firstborn will be around forever!")

That would be because we spent the last 6 years hearing exactly this vacillation from Primaris fans. GW did make their statements upon the first Primaris releases that Firstborn were not going away, that Primaris were "reinforcements not replacements"; and over the years we heard variations of these statements, both official and unofficial...while simultaneously being told that Firstborn are definitely going away - Firstborn fans were right in the middle of two different arguments with completely conflicting opinions (1, Firstborn are definitely going to get phased out, and, 2, Firstborn are not going away, because they would have already/GW said they weren't), all the while stating they didn't want their stuff to go away regardless of which one was going to play out.

 

11 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Pretty much anyone not trying to actively bury their head in the sand saw where Primaris were going when Intercessors came out, regardless of what some MARKETING from a CORPORATION said.

Right, so GW lying is ok?

 

GW literally said Primaris were not replacing Firstborn units. That is an outright lie. Is that somehow ok?

Quote

Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?

No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.

 

"Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular Space Marines."

 

So GW said it. But it's ok, because it's "just marketing from a corporation"? And to reiterate: this was all while we had Primaris fans going on and on about both that Firstborn are definitely getting phased out and also that they definitely weren't because GW said so.

 

It's pretty obvious why Firstborn fans got/get pretty annoyed when Primaris fans try to justify things.

 

10 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

There was definitely a right way to do this that everyone's happy with, and GW didn't do it. 

Apparently there are things I agree with you on. 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure, GW lied. Or I guess they could argue that that was six years ago and things are different now. In any case, one obviously should not blindly trust marketing speech.

 

Personally when I first saw an intercessor next to a tactical marine I knew the days of the short marines were numbered. 

[Dracos]

What was first Kallas? Chicken or the egg?

 

Did Primaris fans dump on Firstborn … or did the Firstborn players lose their minds when Primaris showed up?

 

I’ve been active or lurking on this site for over twenty years and left for a handful because of the hateful arguments that showed up back in 4th edition. I almost left a year after coming back in 8th. 
 

it was very clear to me that most of the poorly acting Primaris players were acting in response to the hate for the Primaris models and lore, made to feel their choices were wrong and that they didn’t belong in a forum with the true original space marines.

 

That kind of hate died down quite a bit through 9th and I had hoped such gatekeeping mind sets had come to terms Primaris had a place. Today seems to be an example of how easy it is the prejudice of those who were here first to rise their heads in anger and hate again. 

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

I guess they could argue that that was six years ago and things are different now.

Sure, but there was no communication of a change in expection. And, as said, we've had the persistence of both arguments in play since the beginning: we've always had people saying "yes they're going away" and "no they're staying" the entire time.

 

Of course, if GW actually outright said they were going away, they'd lose sales of the Firstborn kits that were available, which is of course totally unthinkable!

 

8 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

In any case, one obviously should not blindly trust marketing speech.

Again, this is not just about untrustworthy marketing speech: if GW says it, that is a statement from them about a specific line and then people will act based on that information. "So they lied, but you shouldn't have trusted them" is a complete crock of  - put the blame where it lies, with the people who lied.

 

10 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

Personally when I first saw an intercessor next to a tactical marine I knew the days of the short marines were numbered. 

I guess I'll say it yet again: Firstborn fans were shouted at when we said this right at the start...even though, as you say, it was obvious. Why? Because GW said that they weren't going to be replaced. So it was a lie.

 

9 minutes ago, Dracos said:

Did Primaris fans dump on Firstborn … or did the Firstborn players lose their minds when Primaris showed up?

Both, but it's also worth noting that you are using similarly derogatory language: "losing their minds" is implying there's no valid reason to be upset. But oh look, the thing that we didn't want to happen is happening, despite what people like you said - Primaris are replacing Firstborn, and our models are being retired.

 

11 minutes ago, Dracos said:

Today seems to be an example of how easy it is the prejudice of those who were here first to rise their heads in anger and hate again. 

It's funny, because there's just as much prejudice the other way, but you're fine looking the other way on that.