More firstborn units lumped together or going away.

[Kallas]

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

What do you not understand? 

You seem to have trouble comprehending what is actually written, so let's put it plainly:

6 hours ago, Dracos said:

By the time you got to your second point I couldn’t remember feeling so attacked for returning to the game based on the sculptures throughout the Primaris line since the first couple years of 8th.

"I don't remember feeling so attacked [...] since the first couple years of 9th" - certainly reads like "I felt attacked."

 

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

He didn't say you personally attacked him, he said the way you talk about primaris feels like a personal attack against anyone who likes primaris.

Except, he didn't.

 

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Combined with you and Kallas going into every thread and saying that primaris players are mean to you, but not finding any evidence to show, is tiresome. 

No evidence? Did you miss the past 6 years? I'm certainly not saying that Firstborn fans were all happy, fun and friendly during, but to say that Primaris fans weren't also problematic is just incredible.

 

Also, going into threads to voice opinions is...literally the purpose of forum threads. If you don't like it, I guess just block and move on? You claim that I have a victim mentality, yet you're literally just here to crap over specific people. As far as 'going into every thread' - yeah, into threads where it's a relevant discussion; such as, y'know, threads talking about Firstborn being removed from the game - in other threads, where that's not the topic, it's not brought up, strange how that happens!

[Orion]

50 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

He wasn't insulted personally about it, he was insulted on behalf of primaris players because you're going nuts about people being mean to you about firstborn, yet you can't actually SHOW anyone being mean to you about Primaris besides Orange Knight, who's "mean" is "I am not concerned about losing firstborn and it's fine that they got rid of them."

Which is hardly mean.

 

I mean read the freaking room though.

Sorry, but people talking smack about the models not going anywhere anytime soon (primaris) is not the same as deriding firstborn and their collectors.

At least not in this context.

 

They knew what they were doing.

[Berzul]

So, in essence... What is the takeaway from this discussion?

 

Seems to be that

 

1) Some Primaris are goofy looking

 

2) GW has lied to the player base for years

 

3) We all knew that they were lying

 

4) They knew that we knew that they were lying

 

5) They lied anyway

 

6) Now, the facade is over, and the models are thrown to Legends, and that's that.

 

7) No one will be 100% happy by this, nor will everyone be on the same page. All positions have, overall, been made clear.

 

8) I want to get to 10 points, for a sense of formality.

 

9) Seriously, those Desolators are freaking goofy looking.

 

10) I wonder if the Primaris will go through their own cleansing, of sorts, at some point, in the future...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Berzul said:

10) I wonder if the Primaris will go through their own cleansing, of sorts, at some point, in the future...

Bloat was never firstborn.

[Marshal Reinhard]

5 hours ago, Gederas said:

 

** also also: Reinhard "expecting to be king of respecfully disagree's in this thread. Let's see if I'm right" -proceeds to get (as of this writing) no Respectfully Disagrees reacts-

Hey. HEY!! 

 

The night is still young, don't count me out just yet! 

[Captain Idaho]

3 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Hey. HEY!! 

 

The night is still young, don't count me out just yet! 

 

Sorry but I'm blowing you out the water right now 

[Wormwoods]

8 hours ago, Berzul said:

10) I wonder if the Primaris will go through their own cleansing, of sorts, at some point, in the future...

 

If it's 20-30 years like the Firstborn got I wouldn't be too worried about it. 

[Blindhamster]

28 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Sorry but I'm blowing you out the water right now 

At least you're both being respectful about it I guess :D

[Crimson Longinus]

As for whole "it would have been better for primaris just be upscaled classic squads in new armour," it probably would have been accepted better. However, I have to say that I like that they have broken the pattern of just releasing new versions of tacticals, devastators and assault marines.* I like that the designers now have the freedom to come up with new types of marine units. Granted sometimes they hilariously botch it like with the desolators, but I feel most have been good.

 

* That being said, they could have kept primaris versions of these three classic staples and still introduced new units. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Crimson Longinus

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Crimson Longinus said:

As for whole "It would have been better for primaris just be upscaled classic squads in new armour," it probably would have been accepted better. However, I have to say that I like that they have broken the pattern of just releasing new versions of tacticals, devastators and assault marines.* I like that the designers now have freedom to come up with new types of marine units. Granted sometimes they hilariously botch it like with the desolators, but I feel most have been good.

 

* That being said, they could have kept primaris versions of these three classic staples and still introduced new units. 

I think for me thats probably a better answer.

 

I miss the Tactical etc, but I don't miss the models. Give me an upsized Tactical squad I am all over it. Terminators proved they can do it.

 

In so many ways it just feels Primaris are the 40k version of HH Legion but without the numbers, I get the idea thou... Intercessor Squad 1 expects heavy fire gets to wear Gravis instead of their Tacticus and get bigger rifles. 

 

GW  can't make everyone happy we all know that, but sometimes I feel that the band-aid should have been ripped off years ago. 

 

6 years of the community fights of Primaris vs Firstborn... The same community antagonists of both sides.  Although some of the more Primaris "fanatics" have fell on their own swords.

 

Do I want peoples armies relegated to Legends? Short answer No. But if GW scrap the Suppressors (@Blindhamster Shakes fist :P) I will have to just get on with it. 

 

But I am a Space Marine fan that like both, I prefer the Primaris models thou.

[Berzul]

3 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

As for whole "it would have been better for primaris just be upscaled classic squads in new armour," it probably would have been accepted better. However, I have to say that I like that they have broken the pattern of just releasing new versions of tacticals, devastators and assault marines.* I like that the designers now have the freedom to come up with new types of marine units. Granted sometimes they hilariously botch it like with the desolators, but I feel most have been good.

 

* That being said, they could have kept primaris versions of these three classic staples and still introduced new units. 

 

Not to rile anyone up but, I mean... Are they doing that, though? Originality-wise, I mean. Not quality-wise. I'm not trying to say the units are not good (although I'd argue some are, indeed, bad, in different ways). Like, consider how:

 

• Intercessors are Tactical Marines with better Bolters.
• Assault Intercessors are Assault Marines without Jump Packs and with better Chainswords
• Desolators and Erradicators are Devastators with better Multi Meltas and Missile Launchers.
• Agressors are Centurions with better gear.
• Incursors and Scouts are Scouts with better Bolters.
• Eliminators are Sniper Scouts with better Sniper Rifles.
• The Dreadnought line is the same Dreadnought line, only now its bigger, better, and spread in various datasheets instead of being one one, with options

 

And on and on it goes.

 

I've always found that the overall spirit behind the design of the Primaris is "Like the Firstborn, but bigger! And better!", and I say this all the while now being on board with putting my marines in a box, forever, and dusting off the 8th and 9th launch kits I got out of FOMO, to start playing with those. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to "hate" on the Primaris, at this stage. Or those players who love them.

 

More to that, I'll openly admit to the fact that some Primaris units are, indeed, "new things". Or, at least, original enough of a deviation from standard Firstborn units. Not that they are all good (I still don't know what the hell Reivers were supposed to be the replacement of, for instance; or what they actually do in an army, in this edition or in any edition).

 

But, at the end of the day, the Primaris were always, and from the start, meant to replace the old units. So, every one of the old units had to have its replacement. Each tactical or strategic role had to be filled again, with something "new". That ethos in design, of making the same, but new, ended up guiding the hand of the company into making a lot of units that are, indeed, redesigned, but quite unoriginal. Clearly the result of the contrains put on the designers, that forced them to keep the creativity in check, as the units still needed to fill the same shoes as the old units.

 

So, with many units, you end up in that classic situation that the Simpsons so adeptly described, years ago:

 

 

I compare the Primaris line to things like the new releases for Death Guard in 8th, Necrons in 9th, and now Tyranids in 10th. Those armies actually got mostly new stuff. That does new things, without having to hold back in originality, in order to also do what other, older units in their own codices, did. 

 

At least, that's the impression I get every time I see the ranges of models for each faction in the game.  

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Berzul

[Tacitus]

5 minutes ago, Berzul said:

• Intercessors are Tactical Marines with better Bolters.
• Assault Intercessors are Assault Marines without Jump Packs and with better Chainswords
• Desolators and Erradicators are Devastators with better Multi Meltas and Missile Launchers.
• Agressors are Centurions with better gear.
• Incursors and Scouts are Scouts with better Bolters.
• Eliminators are Sniper Scouts with better Sniper Rifles.
• The Dreadnought line is the same Dreadnought line, only now its bigger, better, and spread in various datasheets instead of being one one, with options

 

 

Intercessors don't have the Special/Heavy just the two Aux GL launchers.

Assault intercessors I saw more as the BP/CS Grey Hunters/Chaos Marines etc.  though their Close Assault Shoulder Pad probably makes you more right than I. 

Erads and Aggressors struck me more as the Terminators Shooty vs Melta/Hammery. 

Incursuors and Infiltrators might be bolter Scouts but they were never my thing, and I kind of saw them as their own thing for people who wanted to run "10th Company". 

Eliminators suffer from the 3 and only 3 - even with the better rifles they're worse. 

The Dreads are pretty obviously copies - Gun+Fist, Gun+Gun, Furioso and Bjorn. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

The redheaded stepchild that is the surpressor would like to claim he's pretty new. So does the Inceptor. Also would disagree that the aggressors are centurion analogues? Also the invictor war suit seems like a fairly unique concept. a piloted walker rather than a death sarcophagus.

 

There are a few. And they can introduce new things. (though did so in the past as well, like the aforementioned centurions, hunters and stalkers, the baby flyers etc, that lorewise were always there.

[Berzul]

Space Marines moved away from the mixed loadouts in their squads a long time ago. Only Firstborn truly have mixed loadouts. One of the "innovations" in Primaris units is that they went the Eldar route of having each squad serve one specific purpose, and have one specific profile and focus. So, yeah, you have different guns in between the old and the new.

 

But Intercessors are still Bolter focused Battleline infantry with good OC. Same as Tacticals always were, way back when.

Assault Intercessors are still Infantry with Chainswords and Pistols, same as an old Assault Squad on foot instead of Jump Pack used to be.

Erradicators may be in heavier armor, but Gravis is not Tactical Dreadnought scale, and their role as infantry with heavier melta guns still puts them in the same battlefield role as a Devastator Squad. While Agressors fill the rol Centurios would fill, way back when, with their special bolters and their bulk.

Eliminators being a 3 man squad does not take from the fact that they are scout style armored infantry with sniper rifles. Just like scouts used to be scout style armored infantry with sniper rifles.

 

Againt, the company DID change some things, because they HAD to change SOME things... but a lot of Primaris units are direct replacements of firstborn units, because you need to keep those battlefield roles.

[Blindhamster]

I disagree on devastators and eradicators purely on the logic that the idea with eradicators is they’re tough enough to not be a suicide unit, drop pod melta devs are absolutely a suicide option as they simply aren’t durable.

 

but I get the general point and somewhat agree that there are certainly analogies between the two types

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I disagree on devastators and eradicators purely on the logic that the idea with eradicators is they’re tough enough to not be a suicide unit, drop pod melta devs are absolutely a suicide option as they simply aren’t durable.

 

but I get the general point and somewhat agree that there are certainly analogies between the two types

 

I don't think GW intends to design units in their elite "each one of these guys is a veteran of 100 battles" army to be fire and forget suicide units. It works out that way in many cases, I remember 3 man Termie squads with 3x combi-melta was a go-to AT solution for Chaos back in the day, but it's not really the "intended" use of the units if you read how GW describes them in fluff, and the little blurbs on their store pages. Eradicators are clearly a "close range devastators" pastiche in design, if not fully in execution. I think @Berzul's gif of "look it has a new hat" applies here.

[Blindhamster]

By that logic though, sternguard with combi melta (last edition where it mattered lol) were also just close range devastators in that the literally would be used for the same targets. Honestly I’d say eradicators had more in common with that unit. Similar to how hellblasters more directly competed with plasma sternguard

Edited July 28, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Arikel]

2 hours ago, Berzul said:

Space Marines moved away from the mixed loadouts in their squads a long time ago. Only Firstborn truly have mixed loadouts. One of the "innovations" in Primaris units is that they went the Eldar route of having each squad serve one specific purpose, and have one specific profile and focus. So, yeah, you have different guns in between the old and the new.

 

But Intercessors are still Bolter focused Battleline infantry with good OC. Same as Tacticals always were, way back when.

Assault Intercessors are still Infantry with Chainswords and Pistols, same as an old Assault Squad on foot instead of Jump Pack used to be.

Erradicators may be in heavier armor, but Gravis is not Tactical Dreadnought scale, and their role as infantry with heavier melta guns still puts them in the same battlefield role as a Devastator Squad. While Agressors fill the rol Centurios would fill, way back when, with their special bolters and their bulk.

Eliminators being a 3 man squad does not take from the fact that they are scout style armored infantry with sniper rifles. Just like scouts used to be scout style armored infantry with sniper rifles.

 

Againt, the company DID change some things, because they HAD to change SOME things... but a lot of Primaris units are direct replacements of firstborn units, because you need to keep those battlefield roles.

This is mostly my issue in a nutshell. I really dislike this approach to the army. They are similar, but not the same, and have lost almost all the flexibility to customize your individual squad, in several cases not even the sergeant has any options to make him different from his squadmates, in the latest edition not even a separate profile.

 

I think half the fun for me anyways  was making each squad just a little different, with loadouts reflecting the preference of the squad or their typical role they played in the company, which is no longer possible with the new “fixed squads”. Even the primaris leaders are much more limited in gear loadouts to their predecessors.

 

It’s not necessarily even the models at all, the primaris are in general equal too or better quality minis. For me it really is the change in army design from the old companies and flexible custom squads to the new fixed squads and irregular squad sizes of the new Primaris. It’s really a completely different army in practice, not just new models, and I just don’t like it.

[Berzul]

I agree with this. Tactical flexibility was kind of the motiff of the Space Marines. By now, that element of the army might be present in the Doctrines that come from the Galdius Strikeforce, for instance, but not from the units themselves. We are now overly specialized. The closest parallel to me is the Eldar. Those were the guys that had one squad for each task, while we had squads that were flexible. Although never as powerful at one thing like the one-trick-pony squads of other armies, that flexibility had its own flavor to it. Specially as the game moved into a system in which split fire is everywhere, and not a special ability, as it was in the editions leading up to 8th.

 

In fact, my most shocking revelation to the index we have now, was in finding out that Tactical Squads cannot combat squad, anymore. I mean, c'mon! Combat Squads was like THE thing about Tactical Marines! A squad of 10, splitting into two squads of 5! Squads of 5 all around! Small squads for small tasks, big tasks for big tasks, and the flexibility to go from one to the other!

 

All of that is lost, in this edition.

 

And while one might have hoped that the nuance and speciality of the Tactical Squad would be returned to it with the Codex, we can now safely assume that the most likely outcome is for the Codex to straight up remove the Tactical Squad in its entirety.

[Halandaar]

With regard to tactical flexibility, how many people actually used it? A Devastator Squad is only "flexible" if it has a variety of weapons to deal with a variety of threats but in reality you only ever saw them with matched weapons to serve a single purpose (suicide Melta drop pod has already been mentioned), and at that point how are they fundamentally different from the Fire Dragons (ie the sort of unit people are upset that Primaris units are similar to in terms of role?)

 

Okay sure for people who are more interested in rule of cool than peak efficiency (and for the record that does include me) we might have mixed our weapons a little more because the lore of a Tactical Squad being able to cope with nearly anything is cool. But if we're being honest most people didn't/don't play that way so for them, moving from self-enforced matched loadouts to GW-enforced matched loadouts is no real concern.

 

 

[Berzul]

Just now, Halandaar said:

With regard to tactical flexibility, how many people actually used it? A Devastator Squad is only "flexible" if it has a variety of weapons to deal with a variety of threats but in reality you only ever saw them with matched weapons to serve a single purpose (suicide Melta drop pod has already been mentioned), and at that point how are they fundamentally different from the Fire Dragons (ie the sort of unit people are upset that Primaris units are similar to in terms of role?)

 

Okay sure for people who are more interested in rule of cool than peak efficiency (and for the record that does include me) we might have mixed our weapons a little more because the lore of a Tactical Squad being able to cope with nearly anything is cool. But if we're being honest most people didn't/don't play that way so for them, moving from self-enforced matched loadouts to GW-enforced matched loadouts is no real concern.

 

 

 

I used to play my devastator squads with 3 Missile Launchers + 1 Heavy Bolter, or 2 of any one weapon + 1 Missile Launcher + 1 Heavy Bolter. In order to use them for Mortal Wounds, through Flakk Missiles and Hellfire Rounds, back in 8th.

 

I always played my Tactical Squads with Combi Plasma + Plasma Gun + Plasma Cannon, and would place all the Plasma on one combat squad, and the bolters on another. Using the bolter squads to go for objectives, and the plasma squads to go for killing things. 

 

It was a lot of fun.

 

The cool thing was that you COULD play them like Eldar squads where everyone does the same thing, or not. You had the choice. Now, you get to use them as they come, and be happy with it, whether you like it or not. I dunno... I would much rather have the choice, at the end of the day. But, I am ok with the fact that we don't, anymore.

[Halandaar]

1 minute ago, Berzul said:

I always played my Tactical Squads with Combi Plasma + Plasma Gun + Plasma Cannon, and would place all the Plasma on one combat squad, and the bolters on another. Using the bolter squads to go for objectives, and the plasma squads to go for killing things. 

 

This sort of proves my point though; you had the flexibility with your Tactical Squad to run any combo you wanted and what you opted for was a dedicated Bolter squad (comparable to Intercessors) and a dedicated Plasma squad (comparable to Hellblasters).

 

The mixed Devastator Squad is cool and obviously there are always going to be exceptions, but I'd say the overwhelming majority of players don't use them that way. And honestly, without weapon-specific stratagems that let you fish for mortals in one edition of the game, would you be running that mixed squad that often now? Or would you be more likely to go for max Lascannons?

 

 

 

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya back in 5th I used to combat squad a 10 man tac and do the srgt with combi melta and melta gun half in a pod, and the missile launcher half on the table. I remember using combat tactics a ton to disengage from combats, or even fall back out of charge range if they tried getting a bit of chip damage first.

 

In 4th, having the option for the missile launcher in scout snipers was great, as it gave your anti-monster unit the ability to (potentially) kill any vehicle in the game. Same thing with assault marines getting plasma pistols.

 

 

[Berzul]

21 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

This sort of proves my point though; you had the flexibility with your Tactical Squad to run any combo you wanted and what you opted for was a dedicated Bolter squad (comparable to Intercessors) and a dedicated Plasma squad (comparable to Hellblasters).

 

The mixed Devastator Squad is cool and obviously there are always going to be exceptions, but I'd say the overwhelming majority of players don't use them that way. And honestly, without weapon-specific stratagems that let you fish for mortals in one edition of the game, would you be running that mixed squad that often now? Or would you be more likely to go for max Lascannons?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe, but situations could change that around. For instance, sometimes I could put the plasma cannon on the 4 man bolter squad for holding back objectives. Sometimes I would put them all together on one side. Sometimes I would hold the entire squad. I guess I overzealously praised the use of tactical squads, I should not have worded it as a "always like this" method. That's on me.

[Dracos]

“Aggressors with better gear than Centurions”

 

Whatever we’re smoking give me another hit.  That’s not even close. It’s bad enough when they are compared to Terminators. Which also just doesn’t line up either. Superficially … maybe … but not to anyone who does an actual analysis. Math and table experience … they are different animals. 

 

”Primaris designed to work like Eldar”

 

For so many reasons I feel that is  another superficial comparison, when I think it’s should be obvious they were purposefully  built along the lines of the Legions from Horus Heresy. Which considering their origins, makes perfect sense. 
 

The game has has “evolved” in such a way that Tactical squads don’t have the weight or fire or durability for their point cost to be useful anymore in a competitive game. Anyone who knows me knows I’m all about the infantry.
 

Thing is though even if Intercessors could have one Hellblaster and Decimator weapon per squad they would still be less effective in todays environment than full squads acting as a combined arms force. And partially I feel they’re leaving a lot of that “play style” in the hands of the Deathwatch. Just an opinion on that. 
 

Don’t get me wrong I miss the customization but crying about it isn’t going to change anything so I’ll adapt, not deviate to far from center and alter my list with the flow of the game. That’s great thing about Marines. Options. Not all of them all the time but a darn site more than almost any other faction out there.