More firstborn units lumped together or going away.

[Berzul]

 

2 minutes ago, Dracos said:

Whatever we’re smoking give me another hit.

 

I would share if I could, my friend. Alas, the digital age has gone far, but not that far.

[Evil Eye]

I have a bit of a theory that GW originally weren't intending to replace Firstborn completely, but the lukewarm reception to the completely new models (Inceptors, Aggressors, Suppressors etc) in comparison to the more positive attitudes toward the "Firstborn unit but bigger" models (Intercessors, Outriders etc) made them change course and shift to total replacement instead. Not to defend GW of course, and the blatant lies and shift from "Firstborn are here to stay!" to "Firstborn are going and that's a good thing" are completely inexcusable, but it might explain it a little.

[Brother Carpenter]

As I said in an other thread, my biggest point is the fact that gw just invalidated about 80% of my existing army for competetive play. I was looking at giving a tournament a go in 10 th.

Also in regards to all the reactions from the pro and conners: in my roughly 25 years in the hobby there have been rules changes but never was a model range actually not playable at all game systems anymore. Some lost rules or had them changed but could be proxied, see doomrider for example.

But now about €10-15k of my collection is beiing invalidated or in danger of and some people are telling me, live with it??  I think that is a often overlooked part of this discussion. Rules changed in the past but in general you could still use your older models with the new rules and that break point is where it hurts the most for me.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Brother Carpenter
Additions typos and clarifications

[Berzul]

Well, GW did say "Just proxy your army, lol, whatevs'!" in their release about the whole thing. Guess we could all just play with Primaris Marines with dwarfism for a few years, and until the rules change again.

[Brother Carpenter]

21 minutes ago, Berzul said:

Well, GW did say "Just proxy your army, lol, whatevs'!" in their release about the whole thing. Guess we could all just play with Primaris Marines with dwarfism for a few years, and until the rules change again.

After some deliberation that is indeed my plan. Fortunately BT has a lot of cross overs so my crusaders will suffer from dwarfism and retroism concerning their armour, but looking at some interior home decoration mags my wife likes to read, that's just the current fab. Win Win  

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Brother Carpenter said:

After some deliberation that is indeed my plan. Fortunately BT has a lot of cross overs so my crusaders will suffer from dwarfism and retroism concerning their armour, but looking at some interior home decoration mags my wife likes to read, that's just the current fab. Win Win  

 

Midcentury modern marines 

[FarFromSam]

1 hour ago, Brother Carpenter said:

After some deliberation that is indeed my plan. Fortunately BT has a lot of cross overs so my crusaders will suffer from dwarfism and retroism concerning their armour, but looking at some interior home decoration mags my wife likes to read, that's just the current fab. Win Win  

 

 

That's a great thought, and the one GW should have started with.   Shoehorning in lore that... well, that's been covered... could have been avoided by releasing upscaled models.  The impulsors, gladiators, and repulsors even look great with tracks on them.   

 

The worry I have is the rhino chassis, and folks in the competitive scene claiming I'm modeling for advantage.  They have a point,  but after rebasing up to 32mm the thought of re-rebasing 200 models turns my stomach (putting the short guys atop corkboard for example. )

[Captain Idaho]

Let's be honest, using massed proxies will be confusing and likely banned in tournaments.

 

And it's clumsy and deflating through a drop in immersion. Those 5 Bikers with 2 Melta guns and a combi melta Sergeant? Yeah those melta guns are nothing now.

 

And GW themselves have confirmed some things just can't proxy. Which sucks.

[Berzul]

1 minute ago, Captain Idaho said:

Let's be honest, using massed proxies will be confusing and likely banned in tournaments.

 

And it's clumsy and deflating through a drop in immersion. Those 5 Bikers with 2 Melta guns and a combi melta Sergeant? Yeah those melta guns are nothing now.

 

And GW themselves have confirmed some things just can't proxy. Which sucks.

 

It is what it is.

[FarFromSam]

46 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Let's be honest, using massed proxies will be confusing and likely banned in tournaments.

 

And it's clumsy and deflating through a drop in immersion. Those 5 Bikers with 2 Melta guns and a combi melta Sergeant? Yeah those melta guns are nothing now.

 

And GW themselves have confirmed some things just can't proxy. Which sucks.

Swapping 6 hands for bolt pistols is a reasonable ask if it means I save $120 dollars and 20+ hours of building and painting.

[Sea Creature]

I’ve heard geedub is in the process of updating their molds so it just makes sense this is a good time to do some house cleaning. You can’t say the codex has way too much bloat out of one side of your mouth then later cry about doing exactly what you espoused.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

I'm going to try something new here, so LISTENUP....

 

There's still too much bickering (rants, I told you so's, finger pointing, deconstructions, and not so friendly ribbings)... and that goes for fans of the Old Guard () and fans of the Primaris Now rather than lock this thread down for a cool-off period (and possible permanent closure) we (the Mod Team) are simply going to ask you to keep the conversation FRIENDLY and FOCUSED. 

 

That means...

 

1. No more "I told you so's". This might be very self-satisfying, but it's also petty and just irritates the recipient.

 

2. Knock off the deconstructions. There's no point in dissecting someone else's passionate opinion to try and prove you're right and they're wrong. It's just irritating too.

 

3. Unkind Sarcasm and not so friendly ribbing... these don't make for friendly conversation either.

 

4. No finger pointing. From this point on everyone starts with a clean slate.

 

5. Keep the conversation focused on firstborn units lumped together and units that are going away. There's great potential for drift, so let's not do that. For example, Tactical Squads and Devastators are not going away (yet) so why are we talking about them?

 

6. RANTS.... no more rants I'm sorry if you haven't had your turn yet, but we are done with ranting.

 

7. If you are angry and feel the urge to express your rage... DON'T DO IT

 

If I've missed something... DON'T DO THAT EITHER

 

Hot topics like this are usually the quickest to get locked down, and that's a pity, because they can be the most interesting if we just remain thoughtful in the words we use. So, to quote (and paraphrase the meaning) Sgt. Quincannon in that great John Ford film, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon...

 

WATCH THEM WORDS

 

=][=

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Carpenter]

7 hours ago, farfromsam said:

 

They have a point,  but after rebasing up to 32mm the thought of re-rebasing 200 models turns my stomach (putting the short guys atop corkboard for example. )

A long time ago I stuck a capt with jump pack on a larger base with his 28mm base. With a bit of putty work he was on a tacticool hill before it was even tacticool

Also with cork base you do away with the hight difference.

[FarFromSam]

5 hours ago, Brother Carpenter said:

A long time ago I stuck a capt with jump pack on a larger base with his 28mm base. With a bit of putty work he was on a tacticool hill before it was even tacticool

Also with cork base you do away with the hight difference.

Ahhhh that's quite the idea!  However,  Maybe the solution is adding a riser to the bottom of the base rather than re-doing tops.  That would save a lot of time,  give a nice heavy base, and still keep thousands of dollars and hours on the table.

 

Thanks for the great idea Carpenter.   

 

(Corkboard is a great cheap fast height enhancer, but does chip even with a varnish.)

[Brother Carpenter]

That was exactly what I did. He was severely unbalanced so i stuck him with complete base on a bigger one and just smoothed the transition and did some touch ups etc to the new base. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Brother Carpenter

[Rain]

I’m pretty sure you can buy big packs of base adapters on eBay that just slot onto smaller bases to make them bigger. They are available, inexpensive, and less work than total rebasing, or gluing one base to another and then building out a tactical hill. Though I guess the tac hill does make the model appear taller. 

[Berzul]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I’m pretty sure you can buy big packs of base adapters on eBay that just slot onto smaller bases to make them bigger. They are available, inexpensive, and less work than total rebasing, or gluing one base to another and then building out a tactical hill. Though I guess the tac hill does make the model appear taller. 

 

I like this idea. You could just glue one base on top of the other, and then fill the lower base out with terrain to meld both bases together.

[TheArtilleryman]

Sad to see these units going, but looking at them, there aren’t any on the list that I was planning to buy tbh. I had already decided my next army would be primaris-scale only, and would include some FB units but using primaris models. e.g. vanguard vets and assault marines converted from assault intercessors. 
 

I love FB and I like many of the primaris units. The trouble is, once primaris came out and I saw the difference compared to firstborn, I couldn’t un-see it. For that reason I still like my FB army, but I wont add to it any further. Both styles of marine look great, but IMO they look terrible mixed together, like they’re from a different game system.

 

It’s the lore for primaris I don’t like at all, but that’s a whole other discussion. The new models (apart from the grav-tanks) I like, and I am interested to see more updates like the Leviathan Sternguard and Terminators.

 

I also hope that they up-scale all the Grey Knight kits. Not touch the lore, just give us bigger models.

Edited July 30, 2023 by TheArtilleryman

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

One thing I've been thinking about since the announcement is what other kits might get the Terminator treatment? Like what kits will get a refresh but don't get replaced by a primaries analog?

 

My first thought was a rescaled Land Raider kit but then I wondered if that wouldn't be possible due to the Custodes having access to the same model ( had the same thought about the Rhino and Sisters as well)

 

Anyone have a similar thought?

[Evil Eye]

12 minutes ago, Shadow Captain Vyper said:

One thing I've been thinking about since the announcement is what other kits might get the Terminator treatment? Like what kits will get a refresh but don't get replaced by a primaries analog?

 

My first thought was a rescaled Land Raider kit but then I wondered if that wouldn't be possible due to the Custodes having access to the same model ( had the same thought about the Rhino and Sisters as well)

 

Anyone have a similar thought?

The Land Raider seems like a good option as the current kit is bloody ancient, and IIRC the LR is the only transport Terminators can ride?

[Blindhamster]

12 minutes ago, Shadow Captain Vyper said:

One thing I've been thinking about since the announcement is what other kits might get the Terminator treatment? Like what kits will get a refresh but don't get replaced by a primaries analog?

 

My first thought was a rescaled Land Raider kit but then I wondered if that wouldn't be possible due to the Custodes having access to the same model ( had the same thought about the Rhino and Sisters as well)

 

Anyone have a similar thought?

Terminators

Assault Terminators

Land Raiders (and variants)

Scouts of both varieties (though, they'll likely be the same as the templar neophytes, which do borrom some elements from tacticus with things like the power plant design in the back and they'll 100% be "either kind")

Drop Pod

Maybe Centurions

I think any "standard" power armour units at best will get the sternguard treatment - which sounds like it may be more or less what assault squads are getting, though Valrak referred to them as Jump Assault Intercessors, which seems like an unnecessarily wordy name lol.

 

 

 

Just now, Evil Eye said:

The Land Raider seems like a good option as the current kit is bloody ancient, and IIRC the LR is the only transport Terminators can ride?

I remember going to my local games workshop (Cardiff at the time) very excited for release day of the "new" land raider. Good times, but yes, its a reminder that I too am now old lol.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I have actually just started a Firstborn army. I find it's best to take GW's "rules" as guidelines, much like the Pirates Code. Hobby what makes you happy and play for fun rather than wins. 

[Paladin777]

This post is not to invalidate the lamentations of others, only to share my personal thoughts and situation.

 

First off, I never expected the thread to explode like it did! O.o

 

Second, after having some time to mull it over, I find that I personally am not losing much at this time.

 

Sure my Attack Bikes might be going away, but I figure I can proxy those as ATV's for some time, similarly to how GW says that assault marines can be used as VV's.
 

Since I just bought and put together an ironclad dreadnaught within the last couple months (and pledged it to the Call to Arms... go figure), I really hope that the boxnaught entry in the codex has the options for Ironclad weapons. Even if it doesn't, I'll likely run it as a furioso when equipped with 2 combat weapons, or a regular boxnaught with an assault cannon when armed with the hurricane bolter. My actual furioso has the frag cannon and my regular boxnaughts have lascannons, so I think I should be fine. It's magnetized for all the major loadouts. 

 

I started collecting BA in 8th, and it just happens that my veteran squads are all firstborn (terminators, VV's, Sanguinary Guard, general command units, along with my Death Company, of which I have 10), and all my regular rank and file are primaris (other than the aforementioned attack bikes). Since it seems like the veteran units are staying and simply being 'embiggened,' it looks like I may have really dodged a bullet there.

 

ultimately I really hope that GW fully eliminates the divide between primaris and FB command units. I understand certain leader units being locked to squads of a similar armor (terminators with terminators, gravis with Gravis, etc.) but it's really stupid that my FB lieutenants can't lead squads of (assault) intercessors or similar, especially when the FB and primaris characters are already so similar in price and abilities!
 

TL;DR

 

While I admit that I'm not losing anywhere near as much as some of the old guard players, I'm really trying to keep a positive attitude about everything.

19 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I have actually just started a Firstborn army. I find it's best to take GW's "rules" as guidelines, much like the Pirates Code. Hobby what makes you happy and play for fun rather than wins. 

As long as you have a group that allows this, that that's definitely the best way to go.

[TheArtilleryman]

On 8/1/2023 at 12:36 AM, Evil Eye said:

The Land Raider seems like a good option as the current kit is bloody ancient, and IIRC the LR is the only transport Terminators can ride?

Terminators can also ride in a Stormraven, but yeah this is the only ground transport.

[Orange Knight]

 

25 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Terminators can also ride in a Stormraven, but yeah this is the only ground transport.

 

Terminators can also ride in a Repulsor.