The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Roomsky]

On 8/4/2023 at 5:32 PM, Scribe said:

 

I find it amusing that there are those among us who can articulate what was wrong with Part 1, but I dont think I've seen anyone actually break down what was great about part 1.

 

"Its Abnett, its great." is about it.

 

I can certainly try.

The first half, I like quite a bit. I think it's paced well, and all the character moments work for me. Malcador getting on the throne was perfect, as was the surprisingly intimate interaction with him and the Emperor leading up to it. I liked the very short snippets of wider action; it's a technique I wish was used for the rest of the Siege instead of bloating books purely for the purpose of scale. I like the prose when it's not up its own ass, and I think the Alpha Legion stuff is the kind of non-intrusive intrigue I prefer to see at this stage. I like Horus' characterization, even if I seem to be in the minority of enjoying crazy-old-man Horus. I even like some things in the back half, like the growing divide in the Sons of Horus. I even like the Dark King angle, as it restores some of the stakes lost by the war in the Webway.

 

I'm frustrated because the back half squandered all the momentum, not just of itself, but of the entire series. Everything grinds to a crawl. I'm frustrated because 300 pages is more than enough to wrap up what needed to be wrapped. Abnett can have 3 books, I still think he's a good author, but what the hell are they going to do? Why is Warhawk burdened with Abnett's plot threads if he gets 3 books? Why does Mortis exist if Abnett gets 3 books? Why is Abnett rehashing what we already know? Why is he introducing new plot threads when the rest of the authors were clearly willing to incorporate his ideas into their books? Why is he using 3 books to cover ground we've already covered? Why is he inventing new ground in the final volume?

 

TL:DR - Why?

Edited August 5, 2023 by Kelborn
Spoiler tags added

[aa.logan]

Steady on, some of us haven’t even considered starting part 1 yet, having to skim a *lot* of the discussion here

[Kelborn]

This shall serve as playground to ramble about the latest news, the decision making behind it and who (if at all) is to blame for.

 

Keepit civil. Dan is just a dude like any other. Wether you agree with his style, lore decisions and whatever I'm missing or not, BL and GW are the last ones to decide. Blame them if you want for not sharing the truth earlier. 

 

I can totally understand your frustration and trust me, I share most of your thoughts. 

 

In the end it is what it is. None shall be treated badly if they have a different opinion than you. Just as a reminder.

 

And now without further into: 

Let's get this one going.

 

Kel

Edited August 6, 2023 by Kelborn

[EverythingIsGreat]

Can't say I am surprised by this. The writing was on the wall, with a setup series of 54 volumes and a finale of 8 volumes which includes a climax of 3 volumes. Personally, I feel is a bit late in the day to complain about bloat. Did the entire Heresy need tens of thousands of pages? I haven't counted, but I believe I had read in Wikipedia years ago that the HH page count then (around volume 30?) was over 10000.

 

I am going to slog through in any case, too far gone to go back. And who knows maybe this is going to be worthwhile, and the final bloat attack will somehow expunge the bloat in the 60+ volumes before it. But this is it. Is there going to be a Scouring Series? I don't care if it is going to be 2 volumes or 20, in 3 months or 30 years.  I will decide whether I should start reading it after the last volume is published. I am sure I can find something else to preoccupy myself with.

 

In the meantime, for those of you who want to know how the Heresy ends, here's the final sentence of part 3 of volume 8, the 64th book of the Horus Heresy:

 

Spoiler

"I was there,’ he would say afterwards, until afterwards became a time quite laughable. ‘I was there, the day the Emperor slew Horus.’ "

 

Symmetry, what?

[DukeLeto69]

On Kyme telling Abnett to just write and see how long it becomes and we’ll sort out production issues later...

 

i would lay money on it that Abnett didn’t initially write 3 novels worth. I’d say he wrote too much for 2 novels and there was no logical/obvious/easy place to split into 3 short volumes so he was asked to pad it out to deliver a word/page count that could be delivered as 3 SoT size novels. I don’t normally see much “padding” in Abnett novels. 

[System Sound]

That almost exactly what happened. Especially since Rann and Zephon got their models released on the same day. So their sections of the book are definitely not Abnetts idea...

[Corinthus]

Not a fan of having to wait almost a year to see the end of these series. GW and BL milking the money cow till the last drop, which I can’t say is surprising.

 

However, I certainly don’t care about Dan Abnett delivering three books to close this up. I liked Vol.1, can’t wait to read Vol.2 and I think the last Vol.3 will include a big epilogue that officially starts the 41st millenium. It should have started like this, with Dan delivering the three first books to set the tone for the HH series. I don’t mind him closing the Heresy with a big doorstopper, in fact, he is the best writer in the roster and it’s only natural that he is the chosen one to end itx.

[darkhorse0607]

"More info on End and the Death Part 3"

 

Coming this week as per the Warhammer Community article.

 

Oh boy.

[System Sound]

25 minutes ago, darkhorse0607 said:

"More info on End and the Death Part 3"

 

Coming this week as per the Warhammer Community article.

 

Oh boy.

Probably a cover reveal.

 

Unless... Chaos theory and 99% it's not happening, but they announce that both volumes are coming out at the same time or a few weeks apart, due to majority negative reception.

[Fedor]

I don't mind the bloat of the series per se. I've always thought it appropriate to the maximalist soup that is 40k as a setting, and doubt we would have ended up with anything better if done as a War of the Beast type thing, which BL are equally capable of making a structural mess of.

 

it's the marketing and sales side of it all bothers me.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Fedor

[Ubiquitous1984]

1 hour ago, System Sound said:

Probably a cover reveal.

 

Unless... Chaos theory and 99% it's not happening, but they announce that both volumes are coming out at the same time or a few weeks apart, due to majority negative reception.

I really can’t wait to see what they do with this cover!

[Nagashsnee]

10 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

I really can’t wait to see what they do with this cover!

They need to accept that they will never beat the iconic horus vs Emperor and stop trying, book 3 cover should be Emperor on the throne for me. Dorn and Valdor gazing up at him with backs to us. 

[TrevorLoLz]

18 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

On Kyme telling Abnett to just write and see how long it becomes and we’ll sort out production issues later...

 

i would lay money on it that Abnett didn’t initially write 3 novels worth. I’d say he wrote too much for 2 novels and there was no logical/obvious/easy place to split into 3 short volumes so he was asked to pad it out to deliver a word/page count that could be delivered as 3 SoT size novels. I don’t normally see much “padding” in Abnett novels. 

 

This sounds pretty plausible.

 

Again, pure profiteering from Games Workshop. Abnett is a good writer, I enjoy his books, and he's been part of the backbone of Warhammer 40k background for over 2 decades. I'm sure I'll enjoy all three volumes. It's just frustrating that this is turning into the Never Ending Story to give Black Library just that extra few sales.

 

The thing about the boarding action is that it is meant to be dramatic, tense and everyone hurtling towards the final conclusion. By having this drawn out to infinity and beyond, it just robs the story of all possible tension. It is doubtful it will be 400 pages of continual "Sanguinius moved through this tunnel, killed some dudes, now next tunnel" because that will be a marathon of unreadable bolter porn.  So there will be more and more of Abnett's subplots breaking up the action, creating new ones which can end up exhausting the reader.

 

 

[darkhorse0607]

4 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

They need to accept that they will never beat the iconic horus vs Emperor and stop trying, book 3 cover should be Emperor on the throne for me. Dorn and Valdor gazing up at him with backs to us. 

 

I wouldn't mind that. I fully expect it to be another rendition of Emperor vs Horus, but I think the opening book of the trilogy having the Emperor on the throne alive, and the last having him deadish, would be a nice touch.

[EverythingIsGreat]

19 hours ago, Fedor said:

I don't mind the bloat of the series per se. I've always thought it appropriate to the maximalist soup that is 40k as a setting, and doubt we would have ended up with anything better if done as a War of the Beast type thing, which BL are equally capable of making a structural mess of.

 

it's the marketing and sales side of it all bothers me.

 

Good day,

 

One can say 30K is a setting. Generalized descriptions about the actors, the setpieces and the political/technological/philosophical etc. underpinnings can be provided, in more or less detail, as the setting "fills up". Branches and sub-settings can go on ad infinitum. But one can also see the HH as a/the major campaign in the 30K setting. Such campaigns translated into novels would need a story, one with relatively narrow and coherent focus. Imo, the ground covered in the opening trilogy was substantial and the story seemed to be moving at a much faster clip with tighter focus than whatever came later.

 

Plausible reasons for the change in pace and focus have been given by a number of posters in this thread and others. In any case, AFAIC the story suffered as a result.

[USNCenturion]

On 8/2/2023 at 6:18 PM, byrd9999 said:

I love Dan Abnett's storytelling, so the more the better as far as I am concerned.

I love beer, so someone dumping 20 gallons of it into my mouth all at once is great!

 

I can’t understand how people (in general) defend/are OK with splitting this book into 3 “volumes”. You people are the reason the rest of us can’t have nice things. You enable GW/BL instead of demanding better, more concise product. 
 

“Meh, it’s Abnett so I’ll read it” No. we deserve better. Everyone makes fun of Return of the Kings multiple endings. It cheapens the overall story. That’s what people remember from that series. 
 

Why didn’t the other authors get to expand and elaborate on their assigned stories? We blazed through MONTHS of the siege. Because it’s Abnett and it’s the last book, he gets free reign to expand something that takes hours?

 

Also, Kyme the editor saying “just write, we’ll figure it out later” in regards to length of the novel is just absolutely perfect, and explains everything negative about this 60 plus book series. I think the ghosts of 1,000 editors must have spontaneously combusted when that conversation took place. Can’t make it up. 
 

They did this to sell more books at the expense of the story itself. That does not deserve defending. 
 

edit:

Maybe splitting the Hobbit into 3 bloated movies was a better parallel than the way ROTK ended. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by EnsignJoker

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, EnsignJoker said:

Everyone makes fun of Return of the Kings multiple endings. It cheapens the overall story. That’s what people remember from that series. 

 

The feth? If anything, Return of the King cut an entire end section for the sake of flow. It doesn't have "multiple endings", it has parallel storylines wrapping up alongside the primary story's course to the actual end point. Which isn't what The Siege of Terra Book VIII Vol.1-3 does.

 

The problem with The End and the End and the End and the Death, Death, Death is that it reopens closed plotlines, shafts others from previous authors and spends countless pages on tangents, despite it itself being the ending.

 

The Hobbits are in Mordor early into volume 1. They're here. There's not much left. But they're going to wait another 1000 pages before they actually step onto the Gorgoroth while Abnett tells us how Ghân-buri-Ghân spent his ancient lifespan watching the skies go red and then delivers an "well, actually, the established version of the Lay of Leithian is wrong and Carcharoth was actually the bestest boy there is, Huan was a bad mutt and Beren didn't die, he was corrupted by Morgoth til Eru Ilúvatar stepped in to cleanse and rebirth him"

 

That's the big issue I personally have with Abnett. He doesn't play well in the established sandbox, tries to reinvent the wheel with almost every installment he wrote, disrespects the elements and characters introduced by other authors, resets & rewrites character arcs as he sees fit, and spends insane amounts of print real estate on deus ex machinae and irrelevancies while trying to look altogether too clever doing it. And now we get that in a triplet book.

[System Sound]

53 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

That's the big issue I personally have with Abnett. He doesn't play well in the established sandbox, tries to reinvent the wheel with almost every installment he wrote, disrespects the elements and characters introduced by other authors, resets & rewrites character arcs as he sees fit, and spends insane amounts of print real estate on deus ex machinae and irrelevancies while trying to look altogether too clever doing it. And now we get that in a triplet book.

This! This is what every Abnett defender needs to hear! While he is a good writer, he's not good at accepting others ideas aperantly.

[Nagashsnee]

I am both dreading but also kinda looking forward to the inevitable twist/set up ending and the flame wars it will bring online/ 

 

But more then that i am dreading the amount of argonauts/random filler chapters that MUST happen to get two more books out of this.  Two for BL standard large books at that.  

 

My only hope is that book 3 has the final showdown done and dusted in the first 100-150 pages and acts more like a epilogue to the series then anything else. 

[Corinthus]

5 hours ago, EnsignJoker said:

I can’t understand how people (in general) defend/are OK with splitting this book into 3 “volumes”. You people are the reason the rest of us can’t have nice things. You enable GW/BL instead of demanding better, more concise product. 
 

“Meh, it’s Abnett so I’ll read it” No. we deserve better. Everyone makes fun of Return of the Kings multiple endings. It cheapens the overall story. That’s what people remember from that series. 
 

I don’t want a more concise product, why would I want that? I want the best autor on BL having total freedom to write as many books he wants since he is the best they have. Of course, a competent editor is also needed, but overall I don’t really see much downside for this.

 

Did Abnett have total freedom and truly wanted to write three books instead of one doorstopper? We don’t really know. Maybe Kyme pressured him to go for three big chunks. It’s fair to complain if this has to do with GW/BL predatory strategy.

 

But if I end up loving the three volumes why would I want him to short them up?

 

Also, I’ve never ever listen to anyone complaining about the ending of Return of the King. My friends and I love that film, just like the other two, and the prolonged ending, at least for me, feels like a nice goodbye for a three part story that changed the film industry forever.

 

Going back to Abnett and this new take of “they are dragging the story”. I mean, yeah, maybe? But what is the point to this argument? They could have ended the whole Siege in one book, even in a short fluff bite!

Abnett could have ended the Gaunt’s Ghost story already! Why drag it?
I don’t get this point.

 

My main complaint is how they spaced the release of the volumes, specially since how we now have confirmation that they knew, in advance, that it would be multiple books. They should have released them with little delay between them.

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, Corinthus said:

I don’t want a more concise product, why would I want that? I want the best autor on BL having total freedom to write as many books he wants since he is the best they have. Of course, a competent editor is also needed, but overall I don’t really see much downside for this.

 

 

Objection! In regards to the HH is not even the 2 best they have. The one and ONLY HH author king is chris wraith and you will never change my mind. ADB is number 2. 

 

Now if your first thought is to scoff and think well that subjective buddy...well duh. 

 

But even in 40k Wraiths works blow Dan out of the water, and let me tell you why. Wraith CARES about the setting, he CARES about the lore and he TRIES to add to this pre existing mess that 40k calls a kinda but not really cannon. 

 

Dan does not, he has never cared and at this point will probably never care.  That's not to say he does not like the universe or the lore, but he doesn't care about it ( and i say this having met and briefly chatted with the man twice, great fellow from what little i know).  Dan will ALWAYS ignore/alter old/existing lore if it classes with his own vision for something.  If he gets an idea that would have far reaching effects he will do it anyways because he wants it in his story and will NOT care about other stories cause you see they are not his stories.  This is especially visible in the HH, with things like the Cabal, the Perpetuals the freaking fact he brought enuncia into it, etc.  The end and the death goes over trodden ground not because he did not know it would be trodden but because HE did not do it how HE wanted it done, and that is all that matters. 

 

So to me Dan Abnett for all his talent (and there is plenty) will never be the number 1 30k-40k writter, because he is not in my view strictly speaking a writter of 30k-40k, but instead Dans version of 30k-40k and since it sells so well (Know no fear is one of my favorite HH books) and because its Dan BL tends to give him way more leeway then i personally think is warranted. 

 

But nothing Dan has produced in the HH so far comes CLOSE to the perfection of the white scar trilogy.  Which remains for me the shining beacon of an example for what 30k should have been. A complete story (Scars-Path of Heaven-Warhawk) that takes everything we knew about the old lore and respectfully expands it while exploring the era and the changes brought about during it thru fresh new characters who themselves have their own story arcs.  

 

For all my love for Know no Fear ( and there is allot), its a stand alone book, it brought in the perpetuals even tho they had nothing to do with what the book is about and was then for other authors to clean up while Dan had Vulkan and Curze pretend its a marvel comic for 200 pages in unremembered empire. Which itself ignores Ultramarine actions in Betrayer. Speaking of the empire i dont want to remember another Dan insert that while promising, went nowhere, was left to others to sort out and then forgotten about. 

 

So i rambled but to get back on point, Dan is very bad at playing well with others/established lore and this causes concern for some, when BL gives the impression that they cut him loose this raises that concern, and when part 1 shows a lack of central vision  and for many bloat it causes that concern to become fear. Fear that Dan will be unable to resist the urge to do what he does best, insert, alter and change, and many of us dont want that. 

 

So in conclusion Chris Wraith number 1 change my mind (you wont).  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[theSpirea]

1 hour ago, Corinthus said:

Going back to Abnett and this new take of “they are dragging the story”. I mean, yeah, maybe? But what is the point to this argument? They could have ended the whole Siege in one book, even in a short fluff bite!

Abnett could have ended the Gaunt’s Ghost story already! Why drag it?
I don’t get this point.

 

We don't know how GG is going to end. At no point, iirc, Abnett or GW announced a number of books in that series. For that reason alone, you can't compare it.

All previous contributors to the SoT respected, to some degree, previous plotlines. Only Abnett, as usual, ignores it and wants to write whatever he wants to write. For that reason, he's never going to be my #1 BL author. He's talented, I love his books, heck, he even introduced my gf to the setting, but he's not a team player. Not only that, his take on the setting is to shrink it. Everything has to be connected, all characters know everything/everyone. This applies mainly to his take on 40K.

 

That's why Wraight is my #1 BL author. Excellent prose, it's subjective but I'd rate it above Abnett's, great world-building, memorable characters, etc. But what's more important, he respects the setting, lore, and work of previous authors. That's a skill Abnett lacks.

 

I don't like they are splitting the book into 3 but I'll wait and see. Maybe, just maybe, it might be worth it.

[darkhorse0607]

Well, here I was ready to rabble on this thread but @theSpirea and @Nagashsnee already hit my points.

 

I don't know, for me, it just boils down to a lack of trust in Abnett. I want to be careful with my words here because I'm not trying to insult the man, I've heard he's a nice person and clearly is talented.

 

But.

 

When I sign up for an ADB or Wraight novel I don't really have to worry about it. I know that I'll get their story and everything will more or less be in concordance with the established setting or other books (and maybe a nod to other novels as well, like how Wraight mentioned Khayon in The Emperor's Legion). I don't get that from Abnett, I get anxiety. Anxiety that either a) established characters that still need their arc finished aren't going to get anything in favor of either something new or his perpetual arc, or b) something weird is going to happen like with the killing of Kibre in Saturnine, even though he's alive later and clearly isn't going to be mentioned throughout the rest of the Siege to fix the problem that Abnett created.

 

Ultimately, I get the impression that at the end of the day, the other authors care about the setting, and at the bare minimum take input from other authors, but also that they've actually read the other books in the setting and want things to fit, whereas Abnett jumps in, changes things to his likings and then jumps back out.

 

Also I'm kind of over him forgetting details about places and characters. The mixing up of the locations of the palace, forgetting what he's doing with certain characters (i.e. having one of the Blood Angels in Saturnine in Terminator armor, then having him zip around on a jump pack, then back in Terminator armor in the next segment), etc. Get a white board or excel file or something

 

Rabble complete

[SkimaskMohawk]

32 minutes ago, darkhorse0607 said:

When I sign up for an ADB or Wraight novel I don't really have to worry about it. I know that I'll get their story and everything will more or less be in concordance with the established setting or other books (and maybe a nod to other novels as well, like how Wraight mentioned Khayon in The Emperor's Legion). I don't get that from Abnett, I get anxiety. Anxiety that either a) established characters that still need their arc finished aren't going to get anything in favor of either something new or his perpetual arc, or b) something weird is going to happen like with the killing of Kibre in Saturnine, even though he's alive later and clearly isn't going to be mentioned throughout the rest of the Siege to fix the problem that Abnett created.

 

To be fair, ADB unfortunately did the exact same thing in Echoes with Kargos. It's one of my only gripes with that book, other than liking the flashbacks to the crusade too much lol.

[darkhorse0607]

Fair point. ADB gave me the Blood Angels book I always wanted from the heresy, with their legion background and everything, so maybe I am too biased towards it