It's possible for all of the Primarchs to be brought back

[FashaTheDog]

I got to thinking about Primarchs returning and getting 40K models.  This all started with Magnus getting a 40K model so TTS called it:

[Brother Tyler]

The video that inspired this discussion is titled "THEY CAN ALL COME BACK! THIS IS BIG! Foilrak Friday!" and the original title of this topic was something along the lines of "All the Primarchs Coming Back" (I don't remember the exact wording, but it was close to that - I'll defer to @Inquisitor_Lensoven). The implied certainty of the original title compelled me to change it to something a bit more accurate to the point of the video.

 

As @Chapter Master Valrak has indicated in this discussion, the fact that he's wearing a tin foil hat on his head in the video should give you pause. It doesn't mean that he's just pulling ideas out of thin air or leading you on, but the topic of the discussion and the conclusions he puts forth are much less certain than many of his other videos (again, though, I'll defer to Valrak for an accurate explanation of his intent with the video).

 

Overall, though, I think that the video and this discussion miss an important point. The lore that Valrak cites in the video is about the creation of Alpha Primus, a not-Primarch - someone more potent than regular Adeptus Astartes (both Firstborn and Primaris), but not at the same level as a Primarch. What isn't clear is how Alpha Primus stacks up against the Adeptus Custodes (more potent than the Adeptus Astartes) and Constantin Valdor (the most potent of the Custodes, near equal to the Primarchs). In addition to not being at the same level as a Primarch, Alpha Primus is both a failure (he's in constant pain) and [currently] a lone experiment that can't be repeated [since Cawl has lost the technology to repeat the experiment - surely that's just a literary device]. Most importantly, this isn't "bringing the Primarchs back" as both the video and this discussion might lead one to believe. Rather, it's the [remote?] possibility of Cawl or some other genius one day being able to create beings similar to the Primarchs. This wouldn't be bringing Ferrus Manus or Horus or any of the others back. It would be creating beings similar to the Primarchs, but who aren't the original Primarchs.

 

As an interesting thought experiment, at best we might see clones of the Primarchs. We already know that's possible given the history of Horus and Abaddon, though we don't know how successful those clones were. After all, Abaddon was able to slay the last clone of Horus in what appeared to be a relatively even struggle (and all of the others had previously been destroyed). At that time, Abaddon hadn't been fully invested with the gifts of Chaos, so he wasn't the powerhouse that we all now know and fear/respect today. Given descriptions of other Primarchs against Legiones Astartes, even the most potent examples of the Legiones Astartes being no match for the Primarchs, it would seem that the clone of Horus was [much?] less potent than the original. But I digress...

 

Let's say that someone recovers/figures out how to clone the original Primarchs, creating equals of the originals. The outcomes would depend upon the sources of the genetic material. If the sources were the original material, unmarred by exposure to the Warp, we would have the Primarchs as they were originally intended. On top of that, if you were to remove the environmental factors that affected each of the Primarchs and raise them in new (controlled) environments, you might have "Primarchs" that turn out somewhat different from the historical counterparts. Imagine not-Angron raised in a more noble environment (and without the Butcher's Nails). Imagine [the real] Roboute Guilliman meeting his clone, who I'll call "Chuck" from here on out. Would Chuck, not raised on Macragge and not exposed to its highly structured society, have the same knowledge and personality as his genetic predecessor? What might Roboute Guilliman think of Chuck? Would not-Sanguinius have wings (i.e., was that mutation in the sire of the Blood Angels Legion an accidental result of his exposure to the Warp when the infant Primarchs were scattered throughout the galaxy by Chaos?)? How would the Imperium, especially the Adeptus Astartes and the living Primarchs, respond to the not-Primarchs that the video proposes? That would be an interesting study.

 

Full disclosure: While the financial benefits GW would reap from bringing back even more Primarchs is undeniable, I'm not a fan of the idea. I'm all for the existing Chaos/Daemon Primarchs to be brought back, but I would prefer that the loyalists be kept to a minimum. And if GW decides to push forward and bring back more loyalist Primarchs, I hope they leave the dead alone (in my book, that's Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, Rogal Dorn, and maybe Vulkan). Ultimately, however, GW will do what they want to do and I just have to learn to cope with those things that I don't like.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

VULKAN LIVES!!

 

(As probably does Dorn. (Because Vulkan said so))

[The Emperors Champion22]

2 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Since there are now 3 cannon examples of a primarch coming back, 

 

The Emperor and ynnead healing guilliman the first time around during the psychic awakening. 

 

The Emperor bringing guilliman back to life after he dies in the plague wars. 

 

and the lion, from what I gather he healed himself over time and the emperor is helping indirectly through the watchers in the dark and the teleporting ability/sword/shield

 

Sanguinius would probably be easier to bring back than most assume, since there is the body and the soul. The Emperor would just have to duck tape them together

 

While I understand peoples frustrations over the feeling of: what's dead should stay dead, that's not how 40k works folks, when the realm of souls and souls exist. It may be almost impossible for a soul to return to a body or even having a body, but as of the plague wars and Gman dying, we have a cannon example of that being possible

 

Also from the saint celestine books, human souls do mostly go to the Emperor in the warp

 

I'm not a fan of the Primarchs coming back, but here we are

yeah once guilliman came back twice theres no reason any of the dead primarchs couldnt come back. the only one you could maybe make an argument couldnt come back in a way that makes sense is horus, and even then im sure they could come up with a reason for it.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Arguably, the Emperor did the same thing with The Khan after he 'died' that he did with G-Man in the Garden.

But that moment did imply it had to happen pretty quickly, like after a point in time it would be too late.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[lansalt]

1 minute ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

Arguably, the Emperor did the same thing with The Khan after he 'died' that he did with G-Man in the Garden.

But that moment did imply it had to happen pretty quickly, like after a point in time it would be too late.

Also in both cases their soul was still attached to their bodies, even if by a single thread. Sanguinius and Ferrus are 100% dead.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Spoiler

"The Warhawk is dead, by any mortal standard. Because he fell so close by, just beyond the walls, his body was carried in at once, and placed on this catafalque in a balming field of catalepsean stasis and life-suspense. If he had died further out, or on another world, there would be no hope at all. But there is. For now and not much longer, an iota of necromimesis remains. The tattered banner of Jaghatai’s soul, gusting into the warp, is still attached to his corpse by a single thread. I have determined this, and I have been trying, repeatedly in these last few hours, to draw it back. Every shred of healing science has been exhausted, for it is a matter quite beyond medicae lore. I have been ministering my anagogic craft to keep that thread attached. It is slow salvation. Each time I try, the attempt ends in failure, and I am forced to ease away. The Khan’s soul will not survive a prolonged effort on my part. It frustrates and saddens me. It should be possible. I don’t know why I can’t save him. Perhaps even my will and warpcraft are not sufficient. Perhaps it is hubristic of me to presume I can act like a god and claim the power or right to bring a man back from death. Perhaps… perhaps Jaghatai is tired of the world and yearns to leave it. But I will try, and I will keep trying. If my lord’s attention was not so occupied elsewhere, it’s what he would be doing. It’s what he’d want me to do. He would not see another son die. I bend my mind in again and resume the subtle psycho-surgery to keep Jaghatai’s soul secure. And this time… this time, I am granted one merciful miracle. Anabiosis. It is demanding, even for me, but I gather the tattered, dancing shreds of Jaghatai’s soul, and I draw them back in, folding them tenderly into the casket of his body. I exhale. The Warhawk will live. It will be days, weeks, perhaps months before his corporeal body heals and he awakens, but he will live. If any world remains to live upon. Then, at the very last, as I look down at what I have done, I realise I haven’t done it at all. I couldn’t. Such a feat was beyond me. It was shameful arrogance to believe I could do any such thing. I have not done this. Someone else has. Someone else has reached in past me and performed the deed, like the god he is not, but appears to be. Because someone else has stirred, and needs me, and does not want me distracted by other matters."

I found the quote:

Edited October 21, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

I would say that's how it actually works unless we talk about chaos and other warp related events outside the Materium. Both the Lion and Guilliman were alive, they just needed to be patched up.
Sanguinius death is a keystone of the setting and defines the BA way beyond the Fallen did the DA. It has also two avatars in 40k of his good and bad sides in the Sanguinor and Mephiston.

They can retcon hawk boi’s level of deadness just like they retconed dorn’s deadness.

 

it want from he’s dead and IF have his body to, IF have only his hand so he might still be alive.

 

im not sure which book, but apparently Corbulo or someone has heard a heartbeat while alone in sanguinius’ tomb, implying it wasn’t his own heartbeat he heard.

[Emperor Ming]

26 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Also in both cases their soul was still attached to their bodies, even if by a single thread. Sanguinius and Ferrus are 100% dead.

Guilliman died during the plague wars, his soul transferred to the warp. So again coming back from the dead is possible with god level intervention

 

 

[LSM]

7 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They can retcon hawk boi’s level of deadness just like they retconed dorn’s deadness.

 

it want from he’s dead and IF have his body to, IF have only his hand so he might still be alive.

 

im not sure which book, but apparently Corbulo or someone has heard a heartbeat while alone in sanguinius’ tomb, implying it wasn’t his own heartbeat he heard.

 

Maybe they can revert the Dorn retcon - back to the Imperial Fists having his body in amber, sans-hands.

 

But his soul stayed with the hands, so there's a pair of Dorn-Things scuttling around the Imperium, doing goods works...

 

...giving each other high fives...

 

...poppin', lockin', an' 'droppin'...

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by LSM

[Cleon]

44 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

  Reveal hidden contents

"The Warhawk is dead, by any mortal standard. Because he fell so close by, just beyond the walls, his body was carried in at once, and placed on this catafalque in a balming field of catalepsean stasis and life-suspense. If he had died further out, or on another world, there would be no hope at all. But there is. For now and not much longer, an iota of necromimesis remains. The tattered banner of Jaghatai’s soul, gusting into the warp, is still attached to his corpse by a single thread. I have determined this, and I have been trying, repeatedly in these last few hours, to draw it back. Every shred of healing science has been exhausted, for it is a matter quite beyond medicae lore. I have been ministering my anagogic craft to keep that thread attached. It is slow salvation. Each time I try, the attempt ends in failure, and I am forced to ease away. The Khan’s soul will not survive a prolonged effort on my part. It frustrates and saddens me. It should be possible. I don’t know why I can’t save him. Perhaps even my will and warpcraft are not sufficient. Perhaps it is hubristic of me to presume I can act like a god and claim the power or right to bring a man back from death. Perhaps… perhaps Jaghatai is tired of the world and yearns to leave it. But I will try, and I will keep trying. If my lord’s attention was not so occupied elsewhere, it’s what he would be doing. It’s what he’d want me to do. He would not see another son die. I bend my mind in again and resume the subtle psycho-surgery to keep Jaghatai’s soul secure. And this time… this time, I am granted one merciful miracle. Anabiosis. It is demanding, even for me, but I gather the tattered, dancing shreds of Jaghatai’s soul, and I draw them back in, folding them tenderly into the casket of his body. I exhale. The Warhawk will live. It will be days, weeks, perhaps months before his corporeal body heals and he awakens, but he will live. If any world remains to live upon. Then, at the very last, as I look down at what I have done, I realise I haven’t done it at all. I couldn’t. Such a feat was beyond me. It was shameful arrogance to believe I could do any such thing. I have not done this. Someone else has. Someone else has reached in past me and performed the deed, like the god he is not, but appears to be. Because someone else has stirred, and needs me, and does not want me distracted by other matters."

I found the quote:

Now, I can't be the only one hearing the 'mostly dead' scene from The Princess Bride while reading that....

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm 90% sure that even Ferrus survived the heresy in a very early draft of Index Astartes. 

 

I'll try and dig it out later.

[LSM]

39 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

I'm 90% sure that even Ferrus survived the heresy in a very early draft of Index Astartes. 

 

I'll try and dig it out later.

 

In the Iron Hands' IA article, Ferrus desperately charged Horus when he realised the traitor legions' betrayal. 

 

The charge failed, and all the Iron Hands present were wiped out in the attempt. Afterwards, some believed Ferrus to still be alive, including a rumour that his wrecked body was taken to Mars and rebuilt. (The Iron Hands themselves "violently refute" this.)

 

(In that lore, the Iron Hands also hold a grudge against the Salamanders and Raven Guard for not joining the charge, and instead turning to try to defend themselves against the betrayers.)

[Sword Brother Adelard]

There's another reference to him being one of the primarchs against Guilliman's codex reorganization post-heresy. It's in one of the other legions' index.

[lansalt]

52 minutes ago, LSM said:

(In that lore, the Iron Hands also hold a grudge against the Salamanders and Raven Guard for not joining the charge, and instead turning to try to defend themselves against the betrayers.)

This was kept in the BL novels and Black Books, but the charge was against Fulgrim and the EC. The idea of Ferrus being still alive became his Fabius clones being killed again and again until Fulgrim got bored of it.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I would love if it all the Primarchs returned bar Horus. 

 

Mostly though, I would love to see Rogal Dorn return. The guy is an absolute unit. 

 

The more 40k is turned into Horus Heresy The Sequel the better. 

[MaximusTL]

i don't think Primarchs returning is a bad thing - the galaxy is FAR more hostile now than it was during the crusade, and i think that balances out how powerful the primarchs are. Hell, a huge part of why Guilliman's return works is that he can't fix the imperium, despite being a primarch. If anything, we need more focus on the non-imperium characters and entities that are primarch in caliber - The Silent King and C'tan, Chaos Demigods (Belakor/Vashtorr), Phoenix Lords, the Eldar Avatar, the Norn Emissary, Ghazgul Thraka. Unfortunately, GW doesn't seem to want make Xenos be on par with primarchs, even though they really should be (there are hints that the Rangda had to do with one of the missing primarchs, so there is precedent of Xenos being on par with Primarchs). Having these powerful forces amass feels like things are ramping up towards the final battle/cataclysm/rhana dandra/end times. 

 

I absolutely want a rougher, bearded Russ, a Wise Old Khan, a grim and wild Corax, and more or less unchanged Vulkan, and i think all of these will come in the next 5-10 years. If GW ever remembers that the Legion of the Damned Exist, it would be epic if Ferrus Manus appears to lead them. (Honestly, considering their schtick of showing up when all hope is lost, they should be all over the place in the Imperium Nihilus). Sanguinius . . . Sanguinius is a strange case as, even though hes my absolute favorite character in Warhammer, I can't see them bringing him back in a way that works. That is, EXCEPT in some End Times scenario where Abaddon arrives on Terra and battles dante, and some shenangans if the sanguinor and Dante and the shards of Sanguinius' spirit on the vengeful spirit and the Emperor's direct intervention all culminate together to bring him back. Either way, it shouldn't be something that happens before the true end.

 

 

[Alternis]

10 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Since there are now 3 cannon examples of a primarch coming back, 

 

The Emperor and ynnead healing guilliman the first time around during the psychic awakening. 

 

The Emperor bringing guilliman back to life after he dies in the plague wars. 

 

and the lion, from what I gather he healed himself over time and the emperor is helping indirectly through the watchers in the dark and the teleporting ability/sword/shield

 

Sanguinius would probably be easier to bring back than most assume, since there is the body and the soul. The Emperor would just have to duck tape them together

 

While I understand peoples frustrations over the feeling of: what's dead should stay dead, that's not how 40k works folks, when the realm of souls and souls exist. It may be almost impossible for a soul to return to a body or even having a body, but as of the plague wars and Gman dying, we have a cannon example of that being possible

 

Also from the saint celestine books, human souls do mostly go to the Emperor in the warp

 

I'm not a fan of the Primarchs coming back, but here we are

To quote Sanguinius words to Dante when he spoke to him 

 

Abaddon has unleashed forces on this galaxy he does not fully comprehend, he sees it as his victory but it may not be so.

what was once thought impossible, is now possible, very possible, because of the opening of the Cicatrix Maledictum.

 

These are actual canon words spoken by Sanguinius to Dante in the 41st millennium. 
 

The Primarchs will return, there’s really no getting around that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 minutes ago, Alternis said:

To quote Sanguinius words to Dante when he spoke to him 

 

Abaddon has unleashed forces on this galaxy he does not fully comprehend, he sees it as his victory but it may not be so.

what was once thought impossible, is now possible, very possible, because of the opening of the Cicatrix Maledictum.

 

These are actual canon words spoken by Sanguinius to Dante in the 41st millennium. 
 

The Primarchs will return, there’s really no getting around that.

Tbf we don’t know if that was real or just a dream/hallucination 

[Alternis]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Tbf we don’t know if that was real or just a dream/hallucination 

If it was just Dante I would be inclined to agree with you. 
 

but Mephiston too?! Lol, either they are both drinking from the same koolaid, or it’s definitely Sanguinius’ spirit

[Karhedron]

20 hours ago, Alternis said:

from his visions with Dante & Mephiston 

to the emperor subtly giving Lion a prophecy regarding Sanguinius 

 

The Grail in Son of the Forest is from Arthurian myth (a big part of the Dark Angels background) and nothing to do with the Blood Angels. In myth, the Grail Knights sought the Grail to cure the wounded Fisher King (the Emperor) and thus heal the kingdom. 

[OttoVonAwesome]

I think the plot might be heading toward ressurecting primarchs too especially since the whole chaos clone saga with Horus' clone being a failure cuase his soul was obliterated and Fulgrims being a success beacuase well... Deamon Fulgrim isn't really Fulgrim he is a hollow and pathetic thing as seen at Rylanor's last stand. I actually believe he'll be obliterated and the loyal Fulgrim will return instead in 40k as it was rumoured and hinted the returning Primarchs may not have the same allegiances as they once did and you know he's a FW model. The Primarchs were made partly of warp stuff and it only makes sense thier souls can be reunited with new bodies the same way they were united with them in the first place. Might piss people off but I read comic books so it's nothing new to me.

[OttoVonAwesome]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:48 PM, lansalt said:

Maybe he's heard about new 30k versions of older sculpts, like Horus or Fulgrim. Or the 40k daemon primarchs like Perturabo that we know are around but haven't show up yet.

 

Otherwise all Fabius clones were a failure, because he could clone primarch bodies, but he missed the Emperor's secret soul sauce that make them terrifying reality warping demi gods. The only exception was the last Fulgrim clone, and we all know that now he's part of Trazyn's collection.

IIRC that's still the case in the lore, and the ghosts in Master of Mankind are unrelated, not to mention separated by millennia.

Was part of Trayzn's collection. Until Cadia.

[lansalt]

4 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Was part of Trayzn's collection. Until Cadia.

Did something happen in the Fall of Cadia novel? Because otherwise Clonegrim is still safely stored somewhere in Solemnace with his EC followers.

[roryokane]

On 10/21/2023 at 5:33 PM, The Emperors Champion22 said:

yeah once guilliman came back twice theres no reason any of the dead primarchs couldnt come back. the only one you could maybe make an argument couldnt come back in a way that makes sense is horus, and even then im sure they could come up with a reason for it.

It's been hinted at in the Lore for decades that Guilliman MIGHT return. I'm just miffed at the way they did it, not that they did (plus Primaris Marines. Blech. Even if I LOVE Belisarius Cawl as a character and The Great Work is an absolutely fantastic novel). It's not quite the same as Horus or Sanguinius or Ferrus Manus, who are definitely deaded and weren't preserved JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME to potentially allow them a comeback.
The other loyalists could come back. Personally, I like the idea of Vulkan, the Khan, or Russ coming back more than the others, but I'm open to the others.