It's possible for all of the Primarchs to be brought back

[Jagus Kumkani]

Bring them all back. Why not? They're creatures of the warp technically. The Emperor can do his shenanigans and bring back the times of old like it was during the crusade. Is Guilliman not working toward that epoch again? The lore needs to move forward at some point. It's fairly stagnant honestly. It's been in a proverbial state of "10,000 years later" and nothing has happened. If you can't handle a fictional universe changing, theres bigger fish to fry my friends.

[phandaal]

14 minutes ago, Jagus Kumkani said:

It's fairly stagnant honestly. It's been in a proverbial state of "10,000 years later" and nothing has happened.

 

Okay, but the lore did move forward. It has been for years now. Does it keep moving forward nonstop now that it started, or do we come to another point where it is a setting again?

 

15 minutes ago, Jagus Kumkani said:

If you can't handle a fictional universe changing, theres bigger fish to fry my friends.

 

This is a 40k message board where people talk about their opinions on 40k things. So, in the context of this forum there really aren't bigger fish to fry.

[Alternis]

18 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

40K tends to be about as subtle as a brick when it comes to metaphors. If they were going to link the artefacts in the vision to other Primarchs, I think they would be more obvious about it. The Grail could relate to the Blood Angels or it could be a metaphor for healing the Emperor. Does the Spear relate to Russ (the Emperor's spear) or Sanguinius (spear of Telesto)? Who does the Candelabra represent in this vision?

 

If you look at Arthurian myth, the three artefacts match the legend. If you try to map the artefacts to Primarchs you have one artefact that could easily be associated with 2 Primarchs, one Primarch who could potentially be associated with 2 artefacts and one artefact that does not seem to relate to any Primarch in particular. If you want to see how GW handle Primarch metaphors, look at the following from Njal Stormcaller's vision in "Ashes of Prospero"

 

 

There we have Lion el Johnson, Jagatai Khan and Corax on one side and Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus and Lorgar on the other. If GW was going to put Primarch references in the Fisher King scene, I think that is the sort of level they would pitch them at rather than trying to make 3 objects that actually are part of Arthurian myth stand for something other than what they actually are.

The Candelabra specifically related to the Celebration of Sanguinala, but I’ve gotta find the context for that again before I can put money where my mouth is in this specific point.

 

But I’m fairly sure that was the point. 
 

Blood Chalice

Spear of Telesto (Dripping with blood???)

Sanguinala Celebration

 

Those were the 3 references from the artefacts..the counter argument here is that it’s not in reference to Sanguinius but instead just a no point dead end reference to ancient Arthurian legends and the author included this whole ‘very important’ scene for no reason but just to nod at this material. 
 

I still cannot buy that, this scene was way too important to be palmed off as just a cameo nod to a book from ancient British fables, the emperor was clearly trying to tell Lion a message and give him direction, we all know it’s not for his own resurrection (as this was already proved in the Cypher book) so by process of elimination it can only relate to another Primarch.

 

unless we want to veer away and say it’s related to several different Primarchs 

 

chalice - Sanguinius 

spear - Russ

candelabra - Corax 

 

But my money is still on all 3 are pointing at Sanguinius.

[Bryan Blaire]

1 hour ago, Alternis said:

But my money is still on all 3 are pointing at Sanguinius.

And my money would be on none of it pointing at Sanguinius, because it’s a book about the Lion, who has been associated with King Arthur mythos for as long as I can remember it in the game - he’s always been the slumbering king to awaken when “most needed again”.  Doing nothing more than furthering the connection between the Lion and the King Arthur mythos is exactly what GW would be most likely to do - not providing hints they might resurrect a dead Primarch who’s story has been about his sacrifice and the results of that sacrifice.

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

And my money would be on none of it pointing at Sanguinius, because it’s a book about the Lion, who has been associated with King Arthur mythos for as long as I can remember it in the game - he’s always been the slumbering king to awaken when “most needed again”.  Doing nothing more than furthering the connection between the Lion and the King Arthur mythos is exactly what GW would be most likely to do - not providing hints they might resurrect a dead Primarch who’s story has been about his sacrifice and the results of that sacrifice.

 

Don't engage them further. This frater has clearly succumbed to the red thirst  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:38 AM, phandaal said:

 

Sanguinius is the Warhammer version of the Archangel Michael, not Jesus. In this version, Michael gets defeated by Lucifer in their duel during Lucifer's rebellion, instead of the other way around.

Let’s see here

jesus-son of god, cared deeply for his people, sacrificed himself for humanity. Human in form.

 

sanguinius- son of god, cared deeply for his people, sacrificed himself for humanity. Human-ish in form.

 

archangel Michael-biblical angels aren’t human-ish in form, doesn’t have a people to particularly care about, not the son of god, didn’t sacrifice himself.

Micheal is referred to as an angel of the highest rank, which would be ophanim. In the Bible these are described as being several wheels with many eyes on each wheel. This sounds nothing like sanguinius. Ophanim are also known as the guardians of god’s throne…which sounds more like custodies 

 

 

On 10/26/2023 at 6:44 PM, Jagus Kumkani said:

Bring them all back. Why not? They're creatures of the warp technically. The Emperor can do his shenanigans and bring back the times of old like it was during the crusade. Is Guilliman not working toward that epoch again? The lore needs to move forward at some point. It's fairly stagnant honestly. It's been in a proverbial state of "10,000 years later" and nothing has happened. If you can't handle a fictional universe changing, theres bigger fish to fry my friends.

the lore has been constantly moving forward since 8th edition dropped.

the universe was stagnant for decades before that.

 

and personally I would prefer a big time jump, and then they back fill that time period with official events like they did for the first 30ish years, rather than this creeping advance.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Tyriks
insult

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Let’s see here

jesus-son of god, cared deeply for his people, sacrificed himself for humanity. Human in form.

 

sanguinius- son of god, cared deeply for his people, sacrificed himself for humanity. Human-ish in form.

 

archangel Michael-biblical angels aren’t human-ish in form, doesn’t have a people to particularly care about, not the son of god, didn’t sacrifice himself.

Micheal is referred to as an angel of the highest rank, which would be ophanim. In the Bible these are described as being several wheels with many eyes on each wheel. This sounds nothing like sanguinius. Ophanim are also known as the guardians of god’s throne…which sounds more like custodies 

 

 

I am talking about the story the Horus Heresy is based on, which is Paradise Lost. Sanguinius is the Warhammer analogue of Michael, only in the Warhammer version he is defeated in his duel with Horus/Lucifer rather than beating him.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:54 AM, Alternis said:

The Candelabra specifically related to the Celebration of Sanguinala, but I’ve gotta find the context for that again before I can put money where my mouth is in this specific point.

 

But I’m fairly sure that was the point. 
 

Blood Chalice

Spear of Telesto (Dripping with blood???)

Sanguinala Celebration

 

Those were the 3 references from the artefacts..the counter argument here is that it’s not in reference to Sanguinius but instead just a no point dead end reference to ancient Arthurian legends and the author included this whole ‘very important’ scene for no reason but just to nod at this material. 
 

I still cannot buy that, this scene was way too important to be palmed off as just a cameo nod to a book from ancient British fables, the emperor was clearly trying to tell Lion a message and give him direction, we all know it’s not for his own resurrection (as this was already proved in the Cypher book) so by process of elimination it can only relate to another Primarch.

 

unless we want to veer away and say it’s related to several different Primarchs 

 

chalice - Sanguinius 

spear - Russ

candelabra - Corax 

 

But my money is still on all 3 are pointing at Sanguinius.

I agree, these items weren’t a throw away line of what was on a table when lion walked into the dining facilities onboard a BA ship on his way to his sons, it was an entire plot point of the book, and making an entire plot point just to refer to old legends doesn’t make any sense other than just to fill out the page count.

 

no to mention while I’m not aware of any specific links between the lion and the angel in lore blood angels and dark angels have been linked together often.

I wouldn’t say they’re juxtapositions of each other or mirrors of each other, but they have notable similarities in their chapter secrets, while having notable differences, where DA traditionally will kill anyone who has seen the fallen, or leave a whole planet to die in order to go chase the fallen, meanwhile the blood angels are second only to the salamanders in regards to how they view and treat standard humans.

 

plus on top of it all, what chapter did the lion team up first? The blood angels, who then came to the aid of the DA, thus now creating a fairly significant tie/bond between the lion, his sons and the blood angels.

 

while the angron/lion arc could have been the BA/DA ‘angels of death’ rumors valrak spoke of before the lion was dropped, it could have also be deeper than that with more yet to come.

 

On 10/28/2023 at 10:24 AM, phandaal said:

 

I am talking about the story the Horus Heresy is based on, which is Paradise Lost. Sanguinius is the Warhammer analogue of Michael, only in the Warhammer version he is defeated in his duel with Horus/Lucifer rather than beating him.

So…if we change the entire story, sure it matches up.

 

but we don’t have to change anything for him to match up with Jesus.

 

not to mention this 

“Would grow to be a man who would battle with satan, and stomp his head, even as the serpent strikes his heel, killing him”

id say the original story of sanguinius, Horus, and the emperor could be interpreted fairly closely to this, in that sanguinius created the chink in Horus’ armor that lead to his defeat, even as Horus killed him.

 

maybe the second section can be applied to the death of sanguinius powering up his sons.

 

https://realfaith.com/what-christians-believe/jesus-defeat-satan-demons-cross/

[Karhedron]

32 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I agree, these items weren’t a throw away line of what was on a table when lion walked into the dining facilities onboard a BA ship on his way to his sons, it was an entire plot point of the book, and making an entire plot point just to refer to old legends doesn’t make any sense other than just to fill out the page count.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So…if we change the entire story, sure it matches up.

 

To apply your own logic, the artefacts in the book line up perfectly with the Grail legend. But you have to do some serious mental gymnastics to try and get those artefacts to apply to other Primarchs. Maybe if we start getting further hints of Sanguinius returning I will revise my opinion but right now, I see this as the Lion's story, not simply an extended setup for another Primarch.

 

On that subject, the BA books have been solidly consistent on Sanguinius not returning. In Mephiston's vision quest during his crossing of the Rubicon Primaris, he specifically asked the Angel he encountered if he was Sanguinius. The Angel replied sadly that Sanguinius died long ago. If GW wanted to start teasing the eventual return of Sanguinius in some form, that would have been a far more likely place to do it than a book that focuses on the Lion and the redemption of the Fallen.

[phandaal]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So…if we change the entire story, sure it matches up.

 

It's changing one detail, dude. I am being polite and trying to explain what the Horus Heresy is based on.

 

Take your bad faith nonsense somewhere else.

[Scribe]

On 10/26/2023 at 4:14 PM, phandaal said:

Okay, but the lore did move forward. It has been for years now. Does it keep moving forward nonstop now that it started, or do we come to another point where it is a setting again?

 

Hopefully it stops progressing before someone ruins it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:24 AM, phandaal said:

 

I am talking about the story the Horus Heresy is based on, which is Paradise Lost. Sanguinius is the Warhammer analogue of Michael, only in the Warhammer version he is defeated in his duel with Horus/Lucifer rather than beating him.

…sure it’s totally the same except the all the parts where it’s not including the climax…

On 10/28/2023 at 1:47 PM, phandaal said:

 

It's changing one detail, dude. I am being polite and trying to explain what the Horus Heresy is based on.

 

Take your bad faith nonsense somewhere else.

The climax…that’s the most important part of a story…

 

On 10/28/2023 at 11:15 AM, Karhedron said:

 

 

 

To apply your own logic, the artefacts in the book line up perfectly with the Grail legend. But you have to do some serious mental gymnastics to try and get those artefacts to apply to other Primarchs. Maybe if we start getting further hints of Sanguinius returning I will revise my opinion but right now, I see this as the Lion's story, not simply an extended setup for another Primarch.

 

On that subject, the BA books have been solidly consistent on Sanguinius not returning. In Mephiston's vision quest during his crossing of the Rubicon Primaris, he specifically asked the Angel he encountered if he was Sanguinius. The Angel replied sadly that Sanguinius died long ago. If GW wanted to start teasing the eventual return of Sanguinius in some form, that would have been a far more likely place to do it than a book that focuses on the Lion and the redemption of the Fallen.

Corbulo has heard a heart beat while in sanguinius’ tomb. I admit I cannot remember where that comes from, but I heard about on one of the regular lore recap channels like wolf lord rho or a similar channel.

 

and again you didn’t apply my logic to get it to equate to Arthurian legend…because my logic is based what makes sense in terms of plot lines for GW.

an entire arc in a book being a throw away reference makes no sense.

[Scribe]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

and again you didn’t apply my logic to get it to equate to Arthurian legend…because my logic is based what makes sense in terms of plot lines for GW.

an entire arc in a book being a throw away reference makes no sense.

 

Plot lines for GW? Like...you think they have some kind of plan?

[Urauloth]

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Corbulo has heard a heart beat while in sanguinius’ tomb. I admit I cannot remember where that comes from

I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that's Red Fury, and if so then uh... good luck with that.

[MegaVolt87]

21 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Plot lines for GW? Like...you think they have some kind of plan?

 

Hasn't the plan always been bigger numbers at the next quarterly earnings reports ?   Adding in all the primarchs isn't much of a stretch at this point in that context. James Workshop would put their nan as a missing primarch if it could potentially make a buck. 

[Cenobite Terminator]

GW only cares about picking up every red cent on the table. There’s no reason for them not to bring back the Blood Angels Primarch. To think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, milddead said:

GW only cares about picking up every red cent on the table. There’s no reason for them not to bring back the Blood Angels Primarch. To think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

 

Good taste, logical lore, a setting with integrity...I mean there are reasons.

[SvenIronhand]

Bring back the real sons of the Emperor.

[Toxichobbit]

8 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Good taste, logical lore, a setting with integrity...I mean there are reasons.

 

"And how much extra profit does leaving some of the Primarchs dead make? None you say? I see. Well then, shove a new battery up Sanguinius' arse and staple Ferrus' head back on, because Primarchs are back baby! Integrity can go in the bin with other profitless ideas, like all that cyber-security malarky." - some GW suit in a meeting, probably.

 

I'm with you in that I'd rather they didn't bring back all of the Primarchs (or any, in fact, but that ship sailed, discovered a new continent, had a few mutinies and was sank by a giant white whale, long ago". Sadly, the part of GW that ultimately makes the decisions cares very little about setting integrity, logical lore/consistency, good taste or anything else beyond profit margins.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 10/29/2023 at 7:45 PM, Scribe said:

 

Good taste, logical lore, a setting with integrity...I mean there are reasons.

Reasons for fans.

shareholders don’t give a rat’s rear end about any of that

 

On 10/30/2023 at 3:56 AM, Toxichobbit said:

 

"And how much extra profit does leaving some of the Primarchs dead make? None you say? I see. Well then, shove a new battery up Sanguinius' arse and staple Ferrus' head back on, because Primarchs are back baby! Integrity can go in the bin with other profitless ideas, like all that cyber-security malarky." - some GW suit in a meeting, probably.

 

I'm with you in that I'd rather they didn't bring back all of the Primarchs (or any, in fact, but that ship sailed, discovered a new continent, had a few mutinies and was sank by a giant white whale, long ago". Sadly, the part of GW that ultimately makes the decisions cares very little about setting integrity, logical lore/consistency, good taste or anything else beyond profit margins.

Yep.

none of the primarchs should have ever returned and I’m pretty sure most players agreed before guilliman came back, but since now roughly a 1/3 have, it doesn’t make sense for GW as a company not to bring them all back.

 

 

 

Any way back to the items from the lion’s book.

3 items, 2 of which are very easily connected to sanguinius/blood angels, seems a pretty solid indication that something with the BA are coming in the future.

 

the candles, a bit more thought needs to be put into it, but currently the BA are the embodiment of the emperor’s light in imperium nihilus, so not a hard connection to make there either.

if not that, sanguinor is literally the light in the darkness that takes the BA through the warp to where they need to go.

[Karhedron]

I was just about to say that I think GW will not touch the 4 perma-dead Primarchs (Sangy, Ferrus, Curze and Horus) because doing so would effectively undo the remaining implications of the Horus Heresy and rob it of its narrative heft.

 

But then it occurred to me, the Horus Heresy is almost over anyway. When the End and the Death Part 3 (or insert incrementing number of your choice) comes out, the story of the HH will be finished. The HH game will live on as a historical setting but that is about it. Once the HH novel series has gone cold, there really is not much incentive for GW not to bring back even the deadest of dead Primarchs and give us Horus Heresy 2.0 Psychic Boogaloo.

[Noserenda]

They are obviously going to do something for the Blood Angels, but i suspect thats why the part of whjy Sanguinor (And arguably LoTD Ferrus) exist, the creatives coming up with an option that isnt creatively bankrupt. 

 

[Jscarlos18]

Primarchs sell the most of all named characters for the looks of it, be HH or 40k. It's just a matter of time before all of them come back. The dead ones included, be it them or an avatar of their soul like many say the Sanguinor is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is worrysome is the disparity of narrative weight between them and Xenos main characters of their own factions. IoM and Chaos Primarchs make all types of stories end up revolving around them. The difference in how they're treated is sadly enormous. You can be certain the Primarchs will look cool in every story they take part in, not so much for Xenos characters.

 

Don't know how will be GW able to justify fans of them that the Imperium is on the backfoot against the other races, or that their stories have stakes when fighting Xenos factions and "Epic Heroes" once they all return to 40k.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the order they will appear in 40k will be this:

1. Fulgrim+Russ->The last mono-God Chaos Primarch is guranteed looking at their track record from past editions.
2. Lorgar
3. Dorn+Perturabo->Rivalry and DarkMech release to use Vashtorr.
4. Jagathai->interchangeable position with Vulkan
5. Vulkan->interchangeable position with Jagathai
6. Alpharius/Omegon
7. Corvus->The least human in appearance
8. Ferrus Manus->Dead but not with same weight as the last two
9. Curze->Dead but not with same weight as the last two
10. Sanguinus->Very unlikely, but if true with reincarnation or clone body->interchangeable position with Horus
11. Horus->Very unlikely, if true he is the last one->interchangeable position with Sanguinus.
12. Missing Primarchs->If they're REALLY Desperate.

Seeing the pattern from 7th to 9th, it seems it will be ore or less a combination of 1 Primarch for each side being brought back at the same time/edition. That will also come with a range refresh or upgrade sprue for the related Legion.

 

What do you guys think of my guessed schedule?

[Bryan Blaire]

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if GW comes up with something to do with Sanguinius + the Sanguinor or the like to bring him back into the game.  There’s nothing shocking about that possibly happening - of course they will do what sells.

 

What is lacking is any evidence why and that GW would be telegraphing their eventual model release of that persona years in advance with placement of items of limited connection to said model (and possibly no connection at all) in a book about the Lion when those items align with a legend in the King Arthur mythos when the Lion himself is actually connected to that mythos.

 

This is what folks are stating is the “wishfulness” of fans - it doesn’t have anything to do with whether bringing Sanguinius back would sell models - that’s obvious that it would.  You have to want those items written about in the Lion’s book to represent something for Sanguinius, rather than being the tie in between the Lion and the King Arthur legend - they don’t inherently have the connection to Sanguinius, and the items don’t have to have any connection to Sanguinius for Sanguinius to be brought back either.  People have already shown this several times between what is written about in legend vs. fans trying to tenuously connect the items to Sanguinius.

 

Additionally, the legend of the Fisher King itself had nothing to do with anything coming back to life except the land - the Fisher King wasn’t dead - and there is nothing about Sanguinius’s return that would somehow “heal” the 40K universe or even the Imperium itself.  If anything, the legend would more closely allude to the return of the wounded Emperor and what that would do to heal his domain.  It is also okay to want “your” Primarch back without anything in any GW writing indicating that will happen - not having it written somewhere has zero bearing on whether GW will bring a Primarch back, they can always invent a story at the time they choose to do it.

 

@Jscarlos18 I don’t know that there’s so much a specific time frame or order to which Primarch GW will bring out so much as they are likely to tie into big narrative events - either large campaigns or end of an edition/heading into a new Edition phase.  These will be likely to be built around which model(s) are done and can get produced for whatever set up they have - honestly aside from the dead Primarchs, most of the ones named that are Chaos could come with any campaign event, doesn’t have to be something specific to have them written in, while all of the Imperial ones left (that aren’t dead) are “lost”, and so could come back when they want provided GW has a way to write them in.  It’ll be something like “…been off doing… waiting for… signaling the need to return, so here I am!”

Edited October 30, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[phandaal]

29 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Additionally, the legend of the Fisher King itself had nothing to do with anything coming back to life except the land - the Fisher King wasn’t dead - and there is nothing about Sanguinius’s return that would somehow “heal” the 40K universe or even the Imperium itself.  If anything, the legend would more closely allude to the return of the wounded Emperor and what that would do to heal his domain.

 

Yeah, it is 100% alluding to the Emperor's eventual return. All of those things being included are GW's neon sign going "THE EMPEROR IS THE FISHER KING *bzzt* THE EMPEROR IS THE FISHER KING."

 

Maybe some people feel like if they cannot come up with a justification right now for Sanguinius to come back, then he never will? That would explain the refusal to even consider that maybe some connections aren't actually there after all.

 

As many people have correctly pointed out, however, whether Pepe Sanguinius has been stealing the mail or not is irrelevant. What matters is whether Games Workshop wants to make a lot of money with big fancy centerpiece models. And the answer there is: they do.