Full Dark Angel reveal

[Rain]

The whole Risen plot point is kind of dumb, but I don’t play DA, so whatever. I guess a lot of DA players didn’t like the Chapter being “pigeonholed” into being Fallen hunters, but the DA’s secrecy and extremism in executing this mission was the key point of the theme of the Chapter. They are called Unforgiven for a reason. Plus it allowed for groups like the Angels of Absolution who believed themselves to be absolved or Luther’s original sin to be interesting foils to most of their brothers.
 

Having the Fallen be redeemed is like saying that the Space Wolves have discovered razors and Alcoholics Anonymous. Oh, so their primarch is back,  and he says these Companions guys are really swell, and not to worry so much about those Fallen fellows. So, now they are just like Ultramarines, but—with more hoods. Wow, awesome.

 

What next, have the BA cured the Black Rage because Sangy showed up and told them how to move to the next step in the grieving process?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

23 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Dark Angels have always been about compartmentalisation of information, everything is on a need to know basis. If their Primarch turns up and tells the Apothecary to help an injured brother cross the Rubicon and delete all records, I am sure they would do exactly as they are told.

 

It's also possible that Dante and the Blood Angels were involved, given that they encountered the Lion first and know a thing or two about keeping secrets themselves.

[Kastor Krieg]

21 minutes ago, Rain said:

The whole Risen plot point is kind of dumb, but I don’t play DA, so whatever. I guess a lot of DA players didn’t like the Chapter being “pigeonholed” into being Fallen hunters, but the DA’s secrecy and extremism in executing this mission was the key point of the theme of the Chapter. They are called Unforgiven for a reason. Plus it allowed for groups like the Angels of Absolution who believed themselves to be absolved or Luther’s original sin to be interesting foils to most of their brothers.
 

Having the Fallen be redeemed is like saying that the Space Wolves have discovered razors and Alcoholics Anonymous. Oh, so their primarch is back,  and he says these Companions guys are really swell, and not to worry so much about those Fallen fellows. So, now they are just like Ultramarines, but—with more hoods. Wow, awesome.

 

What next, have the BA cured the Black Rage because Sangy showed up and told them how to move to the next step in the grieving process?

They're not Unforgiven anymore.

And Primaris BA were seen to be much more resistant to Red Thirst and completely unaware of the Black Rage.

[Redcomet]

31 minutes ago, Rain said:

The whole Risen plot point is kind of dumb, but I don’t play DA, so whatever. I guess a lot of DA players didn’t like the Chapter being “pigeonholed” into being Fallen hunters, but the DA’s secrecy and extremism in executing this mission was the key point of the theme of the Chapter. They are called Unforgiven for a reason. Plus it allowed for groups like the Angels of Absolution who believed themselves to be absolved or Luther’s original sin to be interesting foils to most of their brothers.
 

Having the Fallen be redeemed is like saying that the Space Wolves have discovered razors and Alcoholics Anonymous. Oh, so their primarch is back,  and he says these Companions guys are really swell, and not to worry so much about those Fallen fellows. So, now they are just like Ultramarines, but—with more hoods. Wow, awesome.

 

What next, have the BA cured the Black Rage because Sangy showed up and told them how to move to the next step in the grieving process?

Well the whole point is Lion forgiving them. The Dark Angels had an identity before the whole fallen thing, and will continue to have it now. It is not like all off them will be forgiven or come back. There is also still good reasons for the DA to keep secrets. And keeping secrets and being mysterious where a DA thing before the fallen too.

 

The BA had issues before Sangy died too. And kept them secret. BA marines became rage monsters back then too. Sangy coming back won’t change that.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Redcomet

[ZeroWolf]

17 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Well the whole point is Lion forgiving them. The Dark Angels had an identity before the whole fallen thing, and will continue to have it now. It is not like all off them will be forgiven or come back. There is also still good reasons for the DA to keep secrets. And keeping secrets and being mysterious where a DA thing before the fallen too.

 

The BA had issues before Sangy died too. And kept them secret. BA marines became rage monsters back then too. Sangy coming back won’t change that.

Also important to mention that they won't have any easier a time with the Inquisition, who won't be very happy with anything going on here... There's plenty of story to be mined there

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Redcomet said:

Well the whole point is Lion forgiving them. The Dark Angels had an identity before the whole fallen thing, and will continue to have it now. It is not like all off them will be forgiven or come back. There is also still good reasons for the DA to keep secrets. And keeping secrets and being mysterious where a DA thing before the fallen too.

 

The BA had issues before Sangy died too. And kept them secret. BA marines became rage monsters back then too. Sangy coming back won’t change that.

 

There's a difference between something making sense, or being made to make sense in universe, and the effects that this has on our out of universe interpretation of the fiction, and enjoyment of the faction. Anything can be made to "make sense" in universe if a writer writes it, and hand waves away any inconsistencies. That's the whole thing with fiction. It can be whatever the writer(s) want.

 

They could write that the Ecclesiarchy gets taken over by Lorgar in disguise who uses his innate knowledge of Licticio Divinatus (which he wrote) to convert the Sororitas convents to Chaos by presenting himself as an avatar of the Emperor. It "makes sense" in universe, as Lorgar is an immensely powerful demon primarch, known for his powers of persuasion and manipulation, especially with regard to religious topics, and the Sororitas are religious zealots, much like how the WB were before they fell so Lorgar has experience in just this kind of conversion.

 

But, out of universe, this would probably ruin the Sororitas faction for many fans, as the raison dêtre of the Sororitas is their loyalty to, and worship of, the Emperor, often to the point of horrible violence, self-flagellation, and other extreme acts. Even if they get to keep the same units, and maybe gain a new "Aurelian Companions" unit of silent crimson armored warriors with (im)purity seals all over, something would be lost. Just because you can write a story that kind-of-sort-of makes sense in universe to explain why a faction loses a major aspect of their lore and goals doesn't mean that criticism of this plot point is invalid because "a wizard primarch did it." It's okay to find that disappointing, and as a watering down of faction identity and distinction, especially when it is nakedly driven by GW's desire to sell primarch models.

 

Anyway, bring on the little gray minus signs. They merely stoke the Nails 

[Redcomet]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

There's a difference between something making sense, or being made to make sense in universe, and the effects that this has on our out of universe interpretation of the fiction, and enjoyment of the faction. Anything can be made to "make sense" in universe if a writer writes it, and hand waves away any inconsistencies. That's the whole thing with fiction. It can be whatever the writer(s) want.

 

They could write that the Ecclesiarchy gets taken over by Lorgar in disguise who uses his innate knowledge of Licticio Divinatus (which he wrote) to convert the Sororitas convents to Chaos by presenting himself as an avatar of the Emperor. It "makes sense" in universe, as Lorgar is an immensely powerful demon primarch, known for his powers of persuasion and manipulation, especially with regard to religious topics, and the Sororitas are religious zealots, much like how the WB were before they fell so Lorgar has experience in just this kind of conversion.

 

But, out of universe, this would probably ruin the Sororitas faction for many fans, as the raison dêtre of the Sororitas is their loyalty to, and worship of, the Emperor, often to the point of horrible violence, self-flagellation, and other extreme acts. Even if they get to keep the same units, and maybe gain a new "Aurelian Companions" unit of silent crimson armored warriors with (im)purity seals all over, something would be lost. Just because you can write a story that kind-of-sort-of makes sense in universe to explain why a faction loses a major aspect of their lore and goals doesn't mean that criticism of this plot point is invalid because "a wizard primarch did it." It's okay to find that disappointing, and as a watering down of faction identity and distinction, especially when it is nakedly driven by GW's desire to sell primarch models.

 

Anyway, bring on the little gray minus signs. They merely stoke the Nails 

Well everything they have made and written has been made to sell more miniatures. Hard pill to swallow that even The Scared Texts where there purely to sell stuff.

[Kastor Krieg]

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

Anyway, bring on the little gray minus signs.

[mecanojavi99]

45 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

There's a difference between something making sense, or being made to make sense in universe, and the effects that this has on our out of universe interpretation of the fiction, and enjoyment of the faction. Anything can be made to "make sense" in universe if a writer writes it, and hand waves away any inconsistencies. That's the whole thing with fiction. It can be whatever the writer(s) want.

 

They could write that the Ecclesiarchy gets taken over by Lorgar in disguise who uses his innate knowledge of Licticio Divinatus (which he wrote) to convert the Sororitas convents to Chaos by presenting himself as an avatar of the Emperor. It "makes sense" in universe, as Lorgar is an immensely powerful demon primarch, known for his powers of persuasion and manipulation, especially with regard to religious topics, and the Sororitas are religious zealots, much like how the WB were before they fell so Lorgar has experience in just this kind of conversion.

 

But, out of universe, this would probably ruin the Sororitas faction for many fans, as the raison dêtre of the Sororitas is their loyalty to, and worship of, the Emperor, often to the point of horrible violence, self-flagellation, and other extreme acts. Even if they get to keep the same units, and maybe gain a new "Aurelian Companions" unit of silent crimson armored warriors with (im)purity seals all over, something would be lost. Just because you can write a story that kind-of-sort-of makes sense in universe to explain why a faction loses a major aspect of their lore and goals doesn't mean that criticism of this plot point is invalid because "a wizard primarch did it." It's okay to find that disappointing, and as a watering down of faction identity and distinction, especially when it is nakedly driven by GW's desire to sell primarch models.

 

Anyway, bring on the little gray minus signs. They merely stoke the Nails 

Except nothing has changed for the DA.

 

Do they still keep secrets? Yes, even among themselves as most people inside the chapter doesn't know where these Companions come from.

 

Do they still have access to lost technology that no other chapter has access to? I don't see any Ultramarines flying Nephilim Jetfighters or Space Wolf Terminators using Plasma Canons.

 

Do they still have a unique chapter organization, with 2 very unique special companies? We are just getting updated Deathwing models and the Ravenwing is still there.

 

Do they still go around looking like medieval knights? The Companions say yes.

 

Are they still on a secret hunt of those that betrayed the chapter at the end of the Heresy, even requiring the use of Interrogator Chaplains? Yes, the Lion only pardoned some Fallen, Luther is still out there gathering Fallen and it's not for something good.

 

So I fail to see where is this supposed "watering down" when all the elements that make them unique are still there.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Rain is objectively correct. 

Plenty has changed, the Lion has returned, the 10,000 year old 'habit' of killing All Fallen has been removed.

Now it's not All Fallen will be executed it's watered down.

 

Is it the end of the DA Schick? No. 

Is it watered down? Objectively yes.

Now, how interesting that is to DA players is subjectively up to them.

 

The Unit formation and availability is irrelevant to his point.

[Nephaston]

9 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Also, that Supp in the DW box has different art to the advertised one, donwe know if it's 'Speshul' yet?

As far as we know only the cover is different.

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, Kastor Krieg said:

And Primaris BA were seen to be much more resistant to Red Thirst and completely unaware of the Black Rage.

 

Once they got around to adding the rules for DC Primaris, that kind of put the nail in that minor plot question though.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Redcomet said:

Well everything they have made and written has been made to sell more miniatures. Hard pill to swallow that even The Scared Texts where there purely to sell stuff.

 

YOU LEAVE THE THIRD EDITION RULEBOOK LORE SECTION OUT OF THIS!

 

 

In all seriousness, I think that there are definite degrees of this. Obviously the 40k fictional universe has always ultimately existed to make money for GW. However, it previously felt like the models were downstream of lore in their conception. This is no longer the case. Let's look at Blood Angels as an example. 

 

Their theme was that they are picturesque and angelic, as well as being outwardly refined and artistic, but they hide a twofold curse, one being their quite literal hunger for blood, and the really big one being the Black Rage. Every so often one of these outwardly stoic, artistic warrior poets goes bonkers, decides that every living thing around him is Horus, and gets to cutting. This tends to be messy and unseemly. So, out of this lore grew the Death Company models. The model makers then branched out and thought "What about if one of these psychos gets put in a dreadnaught?" Makes sense. Hence the DC Dread model. "But if they are all crazy, how are they kept sufficiently coherent to not be a liability? Maybe a special leader versed in their curse leads them." Hey! Look! DC chaplain models. Yeah the lore is an excuse to make models, but the models derive from extrapolations of the lore.

 

But look at what happened now. GW made Primaris, (which I'm not going to touch on in of itself, please disarm the virus bombs) but realized that they didn't have the production capacity or whatever to make Primaris DC for at least 5 years. So what did they do? They just removed the Black Rage from Primaris entirely (lorewise) until the models are ready. But now the production queue came back around so they are being re-introduced. It's contrived, and it pulls you out of the fiction. 

 

The lore clearly follows GW's model production schedule, and the models no longer feel inspired by lore, which cheapens the lore and destroys the illusion which makes fiction compelling by making it extremely obvious that the lore exists only to sell models, instead of creating engaging lore that, oh by the way, you can buy models to represent on the tabletop, wink wink. It's like if you're watching a movie and see a production assistant walk past in the background. Yes it's all fake and exists to make money, but the job of a fiction writer is to make that as non-obvious as possible.

 

Edit: My precise timeframe noted may be off, see @Marshal Reinhard's point below. It was more like 2 years, not 5. But it's definitely a "we thought they were immune" until the models came along, and then it was "guess they're not after all! Buy the models" Quoting Warcom here:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

 

"But wait, what’s this? Death Company Intercessors? It was thought that Primaris Space Marines might be immune to the Black Rage, but the legacy of Sanguinius flows in their veins. "

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Rain

[Marshal Reinhard]

2nd > 3rd anyway

 

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

But look at what happened now. GW made Primaris, (which I'm not going to touch on in of itself, please disarm the virus bombs) but realized that they didn't have the production capacity or whatever to make Primaris DC for at least 5 years. So what did they do? They just removed the Black Rage from Primaris entirely (lorewise) until the models are ready. But now the production queue came back around so they are being re-introduced. It's contrived, and it pulls you out of the fiction.

 

This is just inaccurate, Death company intercessors were a thing from 2019 at least

[mecanojavi99]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

YOU LEAVE THE THIRD EDITION RULEBOOK LORE SECTION OUT OF THIS!

 

 

In all seriousness, I think that there are definite degrees of this. Obviously the 40k fictional universe has always ultimately existed to make money for GW. However, it previously felt like the models were downstream of lore in their conception. This is no longer the case. Let's look at Blood Angels as an example. 

 

Their theme was that they are picturesque and angelic, as well as being outwardly refined and artistic, but they hide a twofold curse, one being their quite literal hunger for blood, and the really big one being the Black Rage. Every so often one of these outwardly stoic, artistic warrior poets goes bonkers, decides that every living thing around him is Horus, and gets to cutting. This tends to be messy and unseemly. So, out of this lore grew the Death Company models. The model makers then branched out and thought "What about if one of these psychos gets put in a dreadnaught?" Makes sense. Hence the DC Dread model. "But if they are all crazy, how are they kept sufficiently coherent to not be a liability? Maybe a special leader versed in their curse leads them." Hey! Look! DC chaplain models. Yeah the lore is an excuse to make models, but the models derive from extrapolations of the lore.

 

But look at what happened now. GW made Primaris, (which I'm not going to touch on in of itself, please disarm the virus bombs) but realized that they didn't have the production capacity or whatever to make Primaris DC for at least 5 years. So what did they do? They just removed the Black Rage from Primaris entirely (lorewise) until the models are ready. But now the production queue came back around so they are being re-introduced. It's contrived, and it pulls you out of the fiction. 

 

The lore clearly follows GW's model production schedule, and the models no longer feel inspired by lore, which cheapens the lore and destroys the illusion which makes fiction compelling by making it extremely obvious that the lore exists only to sell models, instead of creating engaging lore that, oh by the way, you can buy models to represent on the tabletop, wink wink. It's like if you're watching a movie and see a production assistant walk past in the background. Yes it's all fake and exists to make money, but the job of a fiction writer is to make that as non-obvious as possible.

 

 

 

Except it didn't take them 5 years to add Death Company Primaris, they were added in Psychick Awakening at the end of 8th with Death Company Intercessors, so 2 years from 2017 to 2019, all previous Lore simply being that the Sanguinary Priests hoped that they weren't affected by the Black Rage and couldn't really know for sure, they never said that they were inmune to it, similar to how the Space Wolfs didn't know if Primaris could turn into Wulfen until it happened which is completely logical as neither the Black Rage or the Curse of the Wulfen can be predicted, they just happen.

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= We don't need to be going into Blood Angels lore here or anything other than the Full Dark Angels reveal =][=

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Any chance of threaded replies being a thing in 2024 so potentially interesting side conversations can avoid being squatted?

 

Because if so, I'd be able to point out that DC Intercessors being a thing had ZERO to do with production capacity as there was no new plastic in the box at all.

 

But since we're still in 2023 going on 1992, I won't.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

This is no longer the case.

Hate to break it to you, it never was. Models got made and rules and lore then had to conform, it’s always been this way

[Cactus]

I'm going to try and drag this back on topic by saying I like the companions so much that I might buy my first nu-scale space marines. If I can get hold of this bundle box before the scalpers. After that I expect that the new shiny enthusiasm will wear off and I'll be back here in ten years bemoaning how they were retired before I got around to buying any.

 

Their robes cover so much of the armour that I can easily imagine MkIII knees or MkVI greaves are underneath rather than the MkX knee-flange.  I don't hate the backpacks but I would be tempted to kitbash a few different ones to increase the variety and hint at older armour.

 

If there's an interesting side-discussion to be had why not start a new thread elsewhere?

[TrawlingCleaner]

20 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

Any chance of threaded replies being a thing in 2024 so potentially interesting side conversations can avoid being squatted?

 

Because if so, I'd be able to point out that DC Intercessors being a thing had ZERO to do with production capacity as there was no new plastic in the box at all.

 

But since we're still in 2023 going on 1992, I won't.

 

You're more than welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate place to discuss whatever you'd like. The NRBA tends to get off topic (/personal if Primaris vs Firstborn gets brought up) much faster than anywhere else due to traffic, so we keep a tight lid 

[Wispy]

Dark Angel fans need to channel their inner Dark Angel and realize that Dark Angels always wore that style of armour, were always that tall, and always had 22 total gene implanted organs. In fact, Inner Sanctum Companions were always part of their chapter formations and I challenge you to find the Chapter records that indicate otherwise!

Edited December 27, 2023 by Wispy

[Cactus]

I have those records (Codex Angels of Death etc.) but sadly I can't share that knowledge with the uninitiated. So yeah, whatever you say is true from a certain point of view. 

 

Guys in robes who don't have a place in the codex structure have been around since the company veterans were introduced. I accepted them so I can cope with these ones too.

[MoriyaSchism]

You Unforgiven lot sure are a silly bunch. We all know who the True Sons of the Lion are.

Spoiler

The Star Phantoms. Why hunt for the Fallen when you can melt people and boil them alive just like in the good old days of the Dreadwing?

 

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Cactus said:

I'm going to try and drag this back on topic by saying I like the companions so much that I might buy my first nu-scale space marines. If I can get hold of this bundle box before the scalpers. After that I expect that the new shiny enthusiasm will wear off and I'll be back here in ten years bemoaning how they were retired before I got around to buying any.

 

Their robes cover so much of the armour that I can easily imagine MkIII knees or MkVI greaves are underneath rather than the MkX knee-flange.  I don't hate the backpacks but I would be tempted to kitbash a few different ones to increase the variety and hint at older armour.

 

If there's an interesting side-discussion to be had why not start a new thread elsewhere?

 

Yeah, the models are very nice. I have sort of written off the new lore at this point. It enters my awareness, but it is only there to be used for winning pedantic nerd arguments. To me, my Dark Angels are still the Unforgiven. I don't even have the new Lion model, because it was never something I asked for or wanted.

 

So these guys are just more cool Inner Circle models to me.

[Wispy]

Speaking, of, I wish there were more plainly robed Primaris minis like LT Zachariah. Mostly to use as Squad Sargent's.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Wispy