The Horus Heresy Horus Heresy: The Battle for Beta-Garmon

[Gorgoff]

4 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Has anyone seen the full Blackshield rules yet?

Yup, they are pretty shwifty. 

12 different Oath' and you can pick two for your army of Blackshields. 

Just read goonhammer.com for a good review on them.

 

[lansalt]

New article in WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/03/29/the-age-of-darkness-around-the-community-check-out-what-these-creators-are-up-to/

 

Includes at the end a new mission with Horus vs the Khan:  Clash Atop The Ghal-Zammad

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Lol a mission where Horus will kill jaghatai on average by the middle of turn 2 to make the game pretty unfun for the scars player. Or, a mission where they can hit and run with jaghatai asap and make both primarchs unchargeable for the rest of the game, and maybe just play cat and mouse with the jetbike version of jaghatai.

 

Did jaghatai lose a duel to Horus at beta garmon? Or is that some newer fluff?

[lansalt]

I don't recall it happening in the Titandeath novel, or it being mentioned later in the Siege books by the Khan or Sanguinius. Given how significant should have been it's ridiculous that FW adds this duel out of nowhere except as an "alternate history" scenario.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

37 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Lol a mission where Horus will kill jaghatai on average by the middle of turn 2 to make the game pretty unfun for the scars player. Or, a mission where they can hit and run with jaghatai asap and make both primarchs unchargeable for the rest of the game, and maybe just play cat and mouse with the jetbike version of jaghatai.

 

Did jaghatai lose a duel to Horus at beta garmon? Or is that some newer fluff?

Someone on Youtube said Shadrak intervened on the Khan´s behalf and teleported himself and the loyal Primarch away.

[Marshal Rohr]

Isn’t it from a novella or short story?

[lansalt]

How? Meduson was killed by Marr years before Beta-Garmon and the Titandeath unless my memory fails me.

[Corswain]

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

I don't recall it happening in the Titandeath novel, or it being mentioned later in the Siege books by the Khan or Sanguinius. Given how significant should have been it's ridiculous that FW adds this duel out of nowhere except as an "alternate history" scenario.

Now Siege of Tera is done I think we should probably expect a lot more of this.

They were never going to just leave it at established lore, they'll go back and fill the gaps.

Not saying it won't get messy but in my opinion they have made a bit of a mess of heresy timeline already anyway.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

6 hours ago, lansalt said:

New article in WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/03/29/the-age-of-darkness-around-the-community-check-out-what-these-creators-are-up-to/

 

Includes at the end a new mission with Horus vs the Khan:  Clash Atop The Ghal-Zammad

 

GMG already played the mission:

 

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

GMG already played the mission:

 

Usually I like his videos but this was so full of severe rules mistakes that I turned it off before turn three. 

[Petitioner's City]

12 hours ago, lansalt said:

How? Meduson was killed by Marr years before Beta-Garmon and the Titandeath unless my memory fails me.

 

Yes, predominantly. Old Earth seems set years earlier:

 

Quote

Old Earth (late 31,010 - late 31,011)

 

• Begins right at the end of Deathfire, Vulkan's rebirth.
• Zytos says T'kell has already left Prometheus, so this is after Sons of the Forge began.
• In Chapter 4, the other Iron Hands have been waiting for 3 days, sometime after Hamart III, due to meet Meduson at Nerrovorn. He gets there 2 days later. At this point we are told it has taken "several months" to arrange this meeting.
• Meduson says he has received word of Beta-Garmon coming under attack, suggesting this may be early in the conflict. According to FW publications, this conflict began around 31,010/31,011.
• Vulkan recalls how he led Nocturnean natives into a Dark Eldar gate "several years" before the Emperor came to him.
• Chapter 18 moves to 2 weeks after the false Ferrus Manus was destroyed.
• When Vulkan reaches the Impossible City, he sees signs of the battle there, from Master of Mankind. Later, they see the gates to Terra closing and the Emperor's forces withdrawing, indicating this is at the end of Master of Mankind.
• Kestros is here as Archamus, and Dorn says the Khan is here, so this is after both Praetorian of Dorn and Path of Heaven.

 

Whereas, Titandeath (the novel, which encompasses the time period seen in AT: Titandeath, LI: The Great Slaughter and HH: The Battle for Beta-Garmon) is later:

 

Quote

Titandeath (31,012 - 31,013)

 

• Opens with loyalist forces gathering for Beta-Garmon, though it also appears conflicts have been going on there for some time.
• Durana Fahl has fought for the Second Maniple for 3 years now.
• Mohana entered her current titan cockpit for the first time 124 years ago. She has commanded for 15 decades.
• In Chapter 2, Legio Solaria will arrive at Beta-Garmon in a day or two. The Mechanicum is now the Adeptus Mechanicus.
• The message ordering Solaria to Beta-Garmon has a datestamp of 832 013 (October). [CONFLICT: Adeptus Titanicus: Titandeath states that the Titandeath has already happened by this point]
• The Astronomicon shines brightly at the start of the book.
• Once they arrive in system, Theta-Garmon V is 3 days away. The battle for Theta-Garmon V has been going on for 3 years.
• Chapter 11 moves to 6 weeks after the initial attack on Iridium.
• In a flashback, we see Legio Vulpa marching on Biphex in 002 987 (January). At this point, Esha was approximately 6 months pregnant.
• Part II moves to Beta-Garmon III. Jinsu Hive is a burning ruin, and has been for a few months. The death toll of Beta-Garmon II alone is in the billions, with people calling it the Great Slaughter.
• Mohana says in Chapter 12 that the capital world has fallen to Horus. 2nd Battle for Nyrcon City? Now Solaria goes to Beta-Garmon III. This follows 1 month of negotiation, and they have held their place at Iridium for weeks.
• Protos says a daemon titan was made before, on Astagar (The Laurel of Defiance).
• Chapter 18 concludes the attempted ambush of Esha. In Chapter 19, Sanguinius and Jaghatai arrive. They are “weeks late”.
• In Chapter 20 (Harrtek losing control in battle) it is stated that Imperial ships arrived 4 days ago.
• Chapter 21 moves to 3 days later.
• Chapter 23 is weeks after the attempted ambush of Esha. At this point. Jaghatai and Sanguinius arrived just over a month ago. Sanguinius wants to launch an attack to retake Nyrcon City and Beta-Garmon II. This will be the 3rd battle for the city: the first was when Dorn dispatched a force to take it from traitors at the start of the war (referenced in FW Book VI, 010), the second when Horus’ massed forces took it back.
• At the start of Chapter 26, the battle at Nyrcon has been going on for a week.
• The Anvil was captured by Horus “some months before” (2nd battle for Nyrcon?).
• After the fall of Carthega Telepathica, the Warp is badly disrupted, and Esha sees Horus surveying the results. His wound re-opens.
• Adeptus Titanicus: Titandeath gives us a specific timeline. The wider Beta-Garmon conflict runs from 010 to 013, with the Great Slaughter really picking up from 012 onwards when the Ruinstorm goes down. The Second Gattle of Nyrcon City is in 403 (late May) 012, the ambush from Horus' mind-slaves was in 643 (late August) 012, Sanguinius and Jaghatai arrive in-system at 084 (early February) 013, the Titandeath itself is 356 (early May) 013, and the fall of the Diviner's Needle is 788 (mid-October) 013.

 

There is also the reality that Horus can't really be at BG in 011.M31 (when Meduson is still alive and the Khagan could have gone to BG earlier, before going back to Terra to come back to BG). In 011, Horus is busy with other events instead (Wolfsbane), at the end of which he is wounded by Russ - before going to BG. I had forgotten that doesn't immediately incapacitate him; instead after BG he becomes incapacitated because of the wound (in late 013) and Slaves to Darkness then happens.

Edited March 30 by Petitioner's City

[Petitioner's City]

11 hours ago, Corswain said:

Now Siege of Tera is done I think we should probably expect a lot more of this.

They were never going to just leave it at established lore, they'll go back and fill the gaps.

Not saying it won't get messy but in my opinion they have made a bit of a mess of heresy timeline already anyway.

 

I recommend Tymell's timeline both for trying to rationalise it, and also - helpfully - pointing out the errors (as above).

 

It is something the wikis should be doing, but they do not seem interested in sources and source comparison to work this out (in another franchise, Trek writers often credit Memory Alpha and Memory Beta with keeping them correct - whereas our wikis cannot do that! :( ) 

 

Of course it's also something GW should be doing - but if the heresy team at BL has moved on, as they have, I can imagine the SDS team feel less beholden to their colleagues' work (plus, I doubt they have read all of it, as very few people have, nor attempted to catalogue the timeline). I am not sure if there is an Alan Merrett-esque figure attempting to make it all fit anymore either. 

Edited March 30 by Petitioner's City

[The Unseen]

The timeline being a little wonky I can deal with, but this feels like "gotta have a Primarch fight in here somewhere", so they just crammed it in. It stretched a bit fitting Russ fighting Horus before Terra, but it made enough narrative sense, was set-up over at least 2 novels, and it was used as a good way to explain why the Wolves werent on Terra. Now the Khan did too and never brings it up again?

Just feels very disjointed.

 

[lansalt]

3 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

I am not sure if there is an Alan Merrett-esque figure attempting to make it all fit anymore either. 

It's evident that each group of people involved in the HH is doing their own thing with little coordination. FW's Horus Heresy has been deviating from the Black Library novels since many years ago in small and big details. And the BL series has a big case of Dan Abnett's HH vs Graham McNeill's HH vs the rest of authors' HH. They don't even make sure that the BL books illustrations of key characters match the descriptions in the text (Ollanius Piers, Amit) or even the models (Zephon).

I guess at some point it becomes a matter of personal taste which version of events and looks we prefer.

[Corswain]

6 minutes ago, lansalt said:

which version of events and looks we prefer.

I am Alpharius.

 

Suits me perfectly. Been choosing the head canon that suits me for years now with no hindrance to my enjoyment of the hobby.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

5 hours ago, Corswain said:

I am Alpharius.

 

Suits me perfectly. Been choosing the head canon that suits me for years now with no hindrance to my enjoyment of the hobby.

Alpharius is like Pippi Langstrumpf:

 

"Er macht sich die Welt wie sie ihm gefällt."

 

 

[Noserenda]

There was a point with Laurie Golding when they were trying to keep things consistent, or using Alan Bligh as a walking reference library but I don't think it's a coincidence that drift has accelerated since gw lost them.

 

It's natural that various writers will want to makes changes and ake their marks. It's natural that the money men might order more dramatic duels or product linked events.

 

Just wish the people working in the same building at least might talk to each other!

[Etruscan]

Is there any indication how much the new Blackshields rules deviate from the old rules in Retribution?

 

I'm keen to hear if the same limitations such as no Praetors or Tactical Squads etc. in a Blackshields force still apply and whether they still have access to Xenos Deathlocks and Halo Blades, for example. I have a sinking feeling that GW will do away with the latter two.

 

I'm itching to get going on some exotic Blackshields conversions...

[Astartes Consul]

The Campaign Books are one big 'What If?' scenario generator though, tbf. And I'd take getting a whole suite of rules for interesting things any day if it means they have to be tangentially tied into a campaign that the studio seems to be obsessed with! 

 

Also remember, if in doubt, the warp did it.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

1 hour ago, Etruscan said:

Is there any indication how much the new Blackshields rules deviate from the old rules in Retribution?

 

I'm keen to hear if the same limitations such as no Praetors or Tactical Squads etc. in a Blackshields force still apply and whether they still have access to Xenos Deathlocks and Halo Blades, for example. I have a sinking feeling that GW will do away with the latter two.

 

I'm itching to get going on some exotic Blackshields conversions...

The same limitations are no longer present on the things you mentioned, except some of the Traits you can choose from do have an effect on what you can take. The deathlocks and halo blades do still exist. The rules are around and out there if you look around, though I’m sure we can’t share pages here or I would.

[Petitioner's City]

On 3/28/2024 at 1:11 PM, lansalt said:

And here are the Legiones Auxilia: https://imgur.com/a/HX7zvI2

 

Given both the shattered legions and legiones auxilia rules are linked to in the chat by @lansalt, I'm sure it's ok to share them @Ripper.McGuirl for @Etruscan

 

https://imgur.com/a/3OQbqMb

 

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Some really cool things in there. I think it's easily the most creative thing they've made for 2nd by far and kinda begs the question of what happened with the daemons?

[No Foes Remain]

I agree, a good list of options there though I kinda wish they had the other traits from 1.0 there in a new form and not just the Chymeriae. But I'm sure plently of people are going to have fun with that.

[Astartes Consul]

21 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Some really cool things in there. I think it's easily the most creative thing they've made for 2nd by far and kinda begs the question of what happened with the daemons?

 

No proper range of models so no real interest internally, I guess?

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 minutes ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

No proper range of models so no real interest internally, I guess?

 

That was...the entire point originally though? The daemon rules in 1st were so customizable to encourage any model use.

 

I'd assume if anything happened it was that they were directed to focus on the stuff that would sell models that fell within the specialist games umbrella, which is why there's a bunch of encouragement towards necromunda kit mixing.