Rumour Imperial Agents Leak

[Indy Techwisp]

4 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

There's currently seventeen Imperial Agent datasheets including the four assassins and five named Inquisitors. 

 

I think there could be room to then add in;

The Tacticus/Gravis/Phobos Deathwatch teams alongside the Corvus Blackstar (maybe Firstborn, Bikes & Terminators) for another 6-8

Grandmaster/Crowe/Voldus with Terminators/Paladins and Strike/Purifier/Purgation/Inceptor and the Dreadknights (perhaps Landraider) for 11-13

 

Add in some reverse Imperial Agents rule for Detachments to let the Deathwatch and Grey Knight forces add in vehicles and characters from the Marine codex, and perhaps a more general 'Inquisitorial Mandate'/'Writ of Passage' for the Inquisitorial or Rogue Trader ones to take 1-3 units from other Imperial factions and you'd have a huge array of new lists opening up from a book that has the same number of datasheets as the new Tau book.

 

Might even be room to add in a Missionary or Navigator as alternative warlords/characters using the Blackstone Fortress characters.

 

The Grey Knight symbol is above the "Banishing Deamons" fluff text and they kind of just need three kits to update them in scale with Primaris.

 

I feel stealing basically all the actual faction specific stuff from both Grey Knights and Deathwatch just to fill a few pages in this "codex" is quite possibly the worst outcome I've seen suggested so far.

[CL_Mission]

10 minutes ago, Orion said:

Gonna be able to use Rhinos with Storm Troopers?

 

Maybe they'll finally release a plastic Repressor and it'll be the dedicated transport for more of the Agents units.

[Doctor Perils]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I feel stealing basically all the actual faction specific stuff from both Grey Knights and Deathwatch just to fill a few pages in this "codex" is quite possibly the worst outcome I've seen suggested so far.

 

Having them as the main fighting force of the inquisition makes perfect sense; having them being able to ally with other Imperial forces also makes sense.

 

In my opinion, GKs, DW, and Custodes should never have been standalone armies, that's not how they're described as generally operating in the lore. Now that the cat's out of the bag, giving agents the opportunity to take mixed forces of (eg) Deathwatch, Scions and Operatives seems like a good compromise to actually represent such forces from the lore on the tabletop.

 

Please GW, just give me an excuse to buy a unit or two of Adepta Sororitas, and allow me to field them with my existing imperial kill teams

[Tokugawa]

"Lore accurate" is false proposition, and chasing it is harmful to game design. 

A pistol has 12 inches range on tabletop. If rules went "lore accurate", Tau opponent player should be able to shoot me from a mansion on other side of street, with a railgun.

[Indy Techwisp]

25 minutes ago, Doctor Perils said:

 

Having them as the main fighting force of the inquisition makes perfect sense; having them being able to ally with other Imperial forces also makes sense.

 

In my opinion, GKs, DW, and Custodes should never have been standalone armies, that's not how they're described as generally operating in the lore. Now that the cat's out of the bag, giving agents the opportunity to take mixed forces of (eg) Deathwatch, Scions and Operatives seems like a good compromise to actually represent such forces from the lore on the tabletop.

 

Please GW, just give me an excuse to buy a unit or two of Adepta Sororitas, and allow me to field them with my existing imperial kill teams

 

Unfortunately all 3 of those have been independent Tabletop armies for a while now, so regardless of lore accuracy there's multiple players for those factions who'd much rather prefer to use the army they actually purchased rather than get wedged into an entirely different faction altogether.

[chapter master 454]

Do feel maybe Deathwatch much like Grey Knights do warrant their own codex, they are really a seperate aspect entirely and more akin to "a chapter that aid their Ordo" with the Grey Knights aiding the Ordo Malleus (however again, only aiding, they are still independent of the Inquisition for the most part and can most certainly can tell inquisitors to get lost) and similarly the Deathwatch function in aid of the Ordo Xenos though due to their less secretive nature and open operation I believe they tend to be more accomendating of investigating issues brought by Inquisitors (Grey Knights from what I know, tend to look at inquisitors saying "there's daemons here!" with the eyes of "Daemons are everywhere inquisitors...I had to kill one in my cereal this morning")

 

This book if it is entitled "Agents of the Imperium" feels more about those incredibly small groups that themselves don't operate typically on large scales. Inquisitors and Assassins are the most notable and easy to point to example. To be honest, not sure how I would feel about Arbites being included...these guys I don't doubt would be fighting such horrors when war comes but...something tells me these guys aren't any more special than guardsman...likely even more expendable than guardsman.

Would be nice to expand on inquisitors a little bit. Give them their own proper units, just a small set of units like the mentioned stormtroopers with their Henchmen being just like their name: Henchmen who they send out to check on things and get information.

 

Just weird really...this book will be more of a "here's where we put the oddball killteams that don't fit anywhere else..."

[Felix Antipodes]

Downgrading Deathwatch and Grey Knights from their own codices down to the equivalents of Inquisitorial henchmen and bit players is something I find demeaning to those factions and those who play them imho.  Will hold off on further comment until the codex is released and we see where GW is heading, but the melter is warming up…

[Emperor Ming]

So death-watch and greyknights are being rolled into this dex and not getting their own?

 

Or just speculation atm?

[Tastyfish]

35 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Unfortunately all 3 of those have been independent Tabletop armies for a while now, so regardless of lore accuracy there's multiple players for those factions who'd much rather prefer to use the army they actually purchased rather than get wedged into an entirely different faction altogether.

 

I can't help but feel that Deathwatch is going to get the short straw here as their whole previous vibe doesn't seem to mesh with 10th ed's philosophy of streamlining things by removing options and turning equipment choices into generic "Deathwatch weapons". Not to mention how far models from different kits is from the 'what's in the box' philosophy, I think they're going to be lucky to keep mixed units as opposed to just being a codex supplement (with Watchmaster and Corvus)/single specialist detachment for marines with specialist ammo upgrades.

 

Hopefully being in the Agents book puts them into more of a 'collectors'/'experienced gamer' category given that the previous iteration of the army was as add ons to an existing force rather than something a beginner would be expected to pick up, and they can keep a bit of the old school flavour. But the list of datasheets I had up there was my optimistic guess.

 

For Grey Knights though, is there anything they would be missing if they kept the datasheets for the infantry units and then had the option to 'ally in' the common vehicles from Codex Space marines alongside a few librarians and characters? Other than the finecast special characters moving to legends.

 

You'd just be restoring the option to take Inquisitors and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers from old Daemonhunters armies.

 

 

Edited March 16 by Tastyfish

[ZeroWolf]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

So death-watch and greyknights are being rolled into this dex and not getting their own?

 

Or just speculation atm?

Just speculation right now.

[Bryan Blaire]

With the new army construction rules, would an Imperial Agents supplement have to include elements/units of the Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard to allow units selected from those Codexes to be played alongside units from an Imperial Agents book?

 

I was under the impression that they wouldn’t have to, and I thought that GW had indicated that they didn’t want units duplicated across multiple books that had to be updated to keep people from “yelling” at them throughout the ‘Netverse’.

 

This could be a very small supplement with minimal units in it, because it probably can’t be a stand alone army in its own right anyway.

[Tastyfish]

8 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

So death-watch and greyknights are being rolled into this dex and not getting their own?

 

Or just speculation atm?

There's images of Grey Knights on the page header for "The Book of the Warp' section of the codex, with the chapter symbol front and centre in the header above it. I think it would be very strange for them not to be included if the book is being split up into these 'Book of' style chapters.

 

On the opposite side of the picture, there's a large marine that looks like it could easily be a Deathwatch Watchmaster with halberd and shield standing behind an Inquisitor, so if there is a "Book of the Alien" it'd make sense to include them.

 

Whether it's a fully list, or just a unit and character or two for attaching to other armies, who knows. I was just speculating that if they were wrapped into this book, you could include almost everything from the older armies and still keep the total pages of Datasheet under that of the T'au codex.

Edited March 16 by Tastyfish

[brother_b]

I think this will incorporate some kits like inquisitorial agents and navy breachers as well as rogue traders. 
 

In the leak there’s a section that says rogue traders, and one for navigators.

 

They may include some inducted space marines or something but I don’t think it’ll be a rolled up book with DW and GK. Too many models and data sheets.

 

Im not sure what else they’ll add but I’m hyped. Even the biggest games of 40 K are still really just large skirmishes. I often see them as snapshots of larger battles. I think inquisition will be a perfect fit for the tabletop.

[Captain Coolpants]

I started grey knights during the daemonhunter days.  I wouldn't be apposed to being rolled back in with inquisitors and henchmen etc. I remember when they were first all removed and separated, people hated it. Now seems it may be the opposite, and people still hate it haha. Us nerds are so hard to please 

[Doctor Perils]

3 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

"Lore accurate" is false proposition, and chasing it is harmful to game design. 

A pistol has 12 inches range on tabletop. If rules went "lore accurate", Tau opponent player should be able to shoot me from a mansion on other side of street, with a railgun.

I see what you mean, though I think we should be able to build an army that _reflects_ its lore rather than be completely at odds with it.

 

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Unfortunately all 3 of those have been independent Tabletop armies for a while now, so regardless of lore accuracy there's multiple players for those factions who'd much rather prefer to use the army they actually purchased rather than get wedged into an entirely different faction altogether.

Yeah, there's no going back on that now, the militant wings of the inquisition need to retain their standalone codices now. But that doesn't mean we couldn't see units that could be recruited by the agents as well

 

2 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

With the new army construction rules, would an Imperial Agents supplement have to include elements/units of the Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard to allow units selected from those Codexes to be played alongside units from an Imperial Agents book?

 

I was under the impression that they wouldn’t have to, and I thought that GW had indicated that they didn’t want units duplicated across multiple books that had to be updated to keep people from “yelling” at them throughout the ‘Netverse’.

 

This could be a very small supplement with minimal units in it, because it probably can’t be a stand alone army in its own right anyway.

For the most part the core rules of 10th don't allow allies, its only specific exceptions in the codices/indices that have it. And generally only in one direction: for example, you can include a few Agents units in another Imperial Army, but you can't do it the other way round (eg attach a unit of Deathwatch to an Imperial guard detachment) which is a shame imo.

If on the other hand Imperial Agents had generic options for Deathwatch kill team, Grey Knights kill team and sororitas kill team, then you could share the love a bit better. Add in the likes of Legion of the Damned and Sisters of Silence and you're cooking with fire

[Noserenda]

Deathwatch, Custodes and grey knights have all been functioning independent forces in the fluff for a while, not a short while either. People out there have built collections with that in mind.

 

You might not like it, but the fluff changes and updates, mostly to sell toy soldiers, and trying to force those cats back in the bag just because you don't personally like it is a bit of a dick move honestly.

 

 

[Nephaston]

An easy way to include those otherwise standalone factions is to do it like the CSM rule on cult marines and just give Agents slightly easier access to some of the infantry. That way you avoid condensing of existing armies into some massive amalgam of rules. And encourage some people to buy an extra codex or three ;).

[MoshJason]

Inquisition should be able to take Battleline squads from Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters of Battle based on the Detachment - So like, Ordo Malleus gets Grey Knight Strike Squads and Terminators, and Ordo Hereticus gets Battle Sisters. Then maybe let them take 1-3 (depending on the battle size) elites from the same. Give Inquistorial Stormtroopers a cool datasheet, similar to Tempestus Scions, and Bam! You've got a fluffy and fun list, using all the imperial agents rules + a few units from other factions.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Doctor Perils said:

I see what you mean, though I think we should be able to build an army that _reflects_ its lore rather than be completely at odds with it.

 

Lore changes over time, often to reflect what models are available. Back in 1st and 2nd editions, there was only one squad of Grey Knights in production so the Lore was that these were rare troops and a single squad might be deployed to aid more conventional forces when a powerful demonic enemy was expected.

 

Now we fight bigger battles and the GKs have been fleshed out into a full army. It would be nice if you could add a single squad to another army using the Agents of the Imperium rules. It wouldn't need to be particularly competitive but it would be a nice nod to the older lore. 

[Cleon]

I'd like the Agents book to just refer to the appropriate Codex/index and say 'if your warlord is and inquisitor of 'x' ordo, then you can choose these units - it makes sense to me that an inquisitor would be the nominal focus (even if not technically leading) a force with a few chamber militant units, but if the more obscure/extreme/elite units are deployed then so is their leader, so the Inquisitor becomes an ally.

 

e.g. If you chose a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor as your warlord, you get access to unlimited (rather than limited by ally rules) selections of the Native imperial agents units (subject to usual rule of 3, epic heroes etc.), but can also select Battle Sister squads, Noviate squads, Dominion, Retributors, Seraphim and Penetient engines AND you generate a small faith pool.

 

If on the other hand you want Paragon Warsuits, Sacresants, Exorcists, Zephyrim, well then you need to be a Sisters Army and you can take your Inquisitor and his warbands using the limited 'Agents' Allied rule.

[Tastyfish]

6 hours ago, brother_b said:

They may include some inducted space marines or something but I don’t think it’ll be a rolled up book with DW and GK. Too many models and data sheets.

If a Land Raider is a Land Raider and a Techmarine is a Techmarine regardless of chapter, it might be less than you think. And if we're already going in thinking "Codex Supplement: Agents of the Imperium" which can also technically work as a stand alone list for smaller Rogue Trader/Inquisitor warbands but is primarily focused at existing players with another codex, I think it is possible.

 

How plausible is up for debate of course - but it wouldn't be an outrageous page count to have the current Agents datasheets + the equivalent of Codex Supplement: Dark Angels for Deathwatch and Grey Knights.

Edited March 16 by Tastyfish

[Indy Techwisp]

13 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

If a Land Raider is a Land Raider and a Techmarine is a Techmarine regardless of chapter, it might be less than you think. And if we're already going in thinking "Codex Supplement: Agents of the Imperium" which can also technically work as a stand alone list for smaller Rogue Trader/Inquisitor warbands but is primarily focused at existing players with another codex, I think it is possible.

 

How plausible is up for debate of course - but it wouldn't be an outrageous page count to have the current Agents datasheets + the equivalent of Codex Supplement: Dark Angels for Deathwatch and Grey Knights.

 

Grey Knights aren't considered a "Divergent Chapter" like Deathwatch are tho.
They're in the Imperium section of the website iirc, not the Space Marine one.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Agents as a Suppliment to either AS, AM, DW or GK would be great.

Get the cool new KT minis etc in the Supp, and all the other units in their respective dexes.

Oh, and Cusdards; I always forget they got let out.

[Tastyfish]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Grey Knights aren't considered a "Divergent Chapter" like Deathwatch are tho.
They're in the Imperium section of the website iirc, not the Space Marine one.

 

They've really missed out on getting a range refresh and expanded units due to the Primaris scale change over the last two editions and...ye gods, thirteen years though! With one new character (kind of replacing the previous Grand Master) and one updated Character figure.

 

They've got a really small range. The question is then what would their range expansion look like? More marine units or Inquisitorial ones (akin to Chaos and their cultists and daemon engines)? Primari-sizing their two units boxes and adding in the new marine vehicles (and dreadnought varients) and some characters via detachment would be a significant increase in what they can take on that front, whilst including them as 'Agents' might also open up some options to include from this new 'Imperium book'. 

 

As far as unique units that codex marines doesn't have, excluding special characters they've got seven (nine with the Voldus and Crowe). Dark Angels got eight with six or seven characters on top of that - the poor Grey Knights just haven't kept up to the point that in their current state they are 50% unique units including special characters and 50% copies of units from Codex Marines. They're also under space marines now on the online shop...

Edited March 16 by Tastyfish

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Tastyfish said:

They've got a really small range. The question is then what would their range expansion look like? More marine units or Inquisitorial ones (akin to Chaos and their cultists and daemon engines)? Primari-sizing their two units boxes and adding in the new marine vehicles (and dreadnought varients) and some characters via detachment would be a significant increase in what they can take on that front, whilst including them as 'Agents' might also open up some options to include from this new 'Imperium book'. 

 

Other than just Upscaling their current kits, I feel they could dive a bit deeper into the whole Paladin vibe they're meant to have.

They lack the classic Paladin "Sword and Board" loadout (pull a celestian sacresant and throw a gun behind the Shield for some range too), they lack a unique "Wizard" (primaris Libbys are cool, but Grey Knights should really have a unique full-caster character) and a Psychic Dread would fit for them too (hopefully making it reminds GW we're still waiting for ours over here in TSons).

Other than that, I'm not certain.
As a fellow Psyker-faction, I would steal ideas from TSons and just "imperialise" them, but I doubt Grey Knights want any Goats.

 

EDIT:

While maybe not the most lore accurate addition, a Grey Knights specific Chaplain would be an interesting addition at least.

Thematically Paladins and "Clerics" go hand-in-hand, and after spending all day hunting down the literal occupants of space hell they could need a marine to boost their morale (who they don't then need to boot back to the mind-wipe zone since Daemons were mentioned).

Edited March 17 by Indy Techwisp
Added another idea.