Adeptus Custodes Officially Include Women

[phandaal]

23 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

But this isn't meant to be an introduction, they were always there.

 

It should have been an introduction though. Just telling people that they have actually always been there is a lazy way to go about it.

 

This topic might get a pass because some folks really wanted to see this outcome, so consider that Primaris and their supposed "secret plan ten thousand years in the making" also went over like a lead balloon. People generally do not like big changes delivered via retcon.

 

As an aside:

 

Yeah, I know we all like to say how 40k is literally entirely told by unreliable narrators, but we do know in our heart of hearts that there are certain things that form a framework for the universe. Eldar spawned Slaanesh, Orks are green (and never beaten), Tyranids are hungry, the Tau are a new civilization on the galactic stage, and so on.

 

There should at least be a foundation on which to build the unreliable narrative.

 

Edited April 15 by phandaal
accidentally a word

[Robbienw]

It would be odd if GW doesn't change the Sister of Silence into the Order of Silence (or similar non-feminine name) now and have men as part of the order. 

 

They were designed in the art and the model line to be counterpart to the all male Custodes, so that reasoning falls away now they've introduced female Custodes. 

 

There has never been any reasoning given as to why men can't join, and we know their are plenty of male pariahs in the lore.

 

It would be hypocritical of them not to make this change now.

[Evil Eye]

Honestly, the introduction of female Custodes is less a bother to me than half the other problems that GW have generated for the setting. With Custodes being made in a far more individual/bespoke fashion than Astartes I think there's room for female Custodes, whilst Marines, being produced through a set method that has only been built upon, not fundamentally altered, by Cawl, are probably set as male-only. My bigger issue is that the Custodes really shouldn't be a playable army in present-day 40K. I much preferred the days when the Emperor's mightiest warriors were all on permanent vigil in the Palace, forever repenting for their shameful failure to protect their liege from Horus. Having a few female Custodes is far less of an issue than these supposedly super-rare, unbelievably skilled mega-soldiers suddenly being all over the galaxy.

 

I will say; the cynical part of me suspects that GW is going to try the age-old tactic of throwing in potentially inflammatory fluff changes to obfuscate from more objective flaws with the actual Codex. "You don't like the new Custodes book? Do you hate women?" etc etc. A bit like how a certain formerly very profitable movie franchise (Scuffle in Space was it?) used accusations of racism/misogyny to deflect from any critcisms of the actual substance of the films. It is, tragically, an all-too-common practice nowadays, and I've already heard bad things about the rules in the new Codex.

 

Also, GW's response to people just asking "Where did these come from" with "They've always been there, there was no retcon!" and then nuking their various social media fronts of any dissent was a bit crap. They could have made a bit more effort; "These are a recent addition to the Custodes, which due to their more unique creation process are not male-only like the Marines" or even "We never really explored the idea before, but we realized there was no reason why Custodes COULDN'T be female" would both have been far more professional and less deliberately confrontational.

 

This does, however, beg the question why male-only organizations are such a bad thing that need to be broken up, but female-only ones are A-OK. Unless we're going to be getting Misters of Silence and Femboys of Battle* in the future, it seems a touch odd to single out one of the two possible gender-exclusive clubs.

 

TLDR: Female Custodes are fine. How they were added was not and doesn't bode well, like, at all.

 

*Though I will say, a Canoness Astolfo would be hilarious.

[Captain Idaho]

To provide a different perspective, I don't like the change.

 

A personal preference to me was the idea of masculine and feminine, opposites conceptually if you will, tied together to make a greater whole. The masculine being Custodes and feminine being Sisters of Silence; they both provide different themes and are together better than they ever could be apart. A progressive visual of working together and combining our differences for a virtuous result.

 

By removing the masculine narrative, the concept doesn't work.

 

Another aspect lost that I enjoyed was the Custodes being a fraternity. They combine with a sorority in the Sisters of Silence, but are their own entities too. How a fraternity interacts internally and with allies and enemies under duress, success or failures is interesting to me. The dynamic between Valerian and Aleya was a highlight to me as they complemented each other so well. The First Heretic and other novels nicely showed how the dynamic between Astartes and Custodes ebbed and flowed, the good and bad. The similarities and contrasts between two fraternities, two brotherhoods.

 

It appeals to me on a personal level. Being a large, working man myself with a sporting history and friends within and around such a thing, I enjoy reading the echoes of fraternity.

 

There's nothing wrong with a faction or two having sex specific theme. There's plenty of room in the galaxy to have mixed sex factions and some aren't, to provide a variety of themes for all to enjoy.

 

On that note, I'd theme my miniatures to personal preference and it wouldn't be an issue practically speaking, but my interest in the background of the faction (alongside the dynamic of Sisters of Silence) has waned. On a personal level, my connection to the faction has diminished.

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, Trysanna said:

Also very funny that a bunch of you are saying the women only armies should include men now, which okay sure, you guys can be part of the SoS, but by that logic women should be included in every Space Marine faction too. Gotta keep it all fair, right?

 

Can we just nip this in the bud? No one here is included in any faction (including you). They are fictional. Including women in Custodes in the lore does not cause women in the real world to become inducted into the Adeptus Custodes. By the same vein, "you guys" are not included in the Talons of the Emperor just because GW makes the Misters of Silence.

 

This might be like asking Superman to eat a bowl of Kryptonite, but can we not get this thread locked again?

[MithrilForge]

I don't wish to get into debates about obvious things here but will say that GW is a company that wants to make money...lots of it... They have another half of an audience out there and they want their money too... It's just the way it is, the new players coming into this game are young and male and female... GW want's them both.

The old schoolers who hate change (you all know who you are ) Nothings been taken away from you, something's been added for some more fans and I honestly hope your not so self focused that you can't see that?! , well, you'll all be gone in several years and the world will have moved on anyway . 

Anything written in a GW book can be changed to suit a companies profits/sales...it's not about fluff/history anymore it's about generating an everchanging story to sell products to consumers... I know lots of people are heavily invested in the Story of 40K but at the end of the day it was stories written to support model sales not models made to add to a story...

 

Cheers, M 

 

 

 

[Roomsky]

I don't want to claim there was no thematic power to Custodes as men and SoS as women, but it was more an aesthetic difference than anything else. The opposite factors they retain (geneforged vs baseline, lack of autonomy vs freedom of thought, soul vs soulless) are far more meaningful than men vs women, especially when Custodes often state that every facet of their being was reforged by the Emperor. Physically and mentally, excepting the shrivelled remnants between their legs, each sex would be identical and will still skew traditionally masculine in the ways Custodes are already masculine (they're large and muscular.) Nothing about Custodian personality really has anything to do with their sex, they're whatever the Emperor wanted them to be to the last minute detail. Their gender is Custodian.

 

So yeah, I guess I'd be fine with a sex-neutral Order of Silence as well, as nothing about them is traditionally feminine but their armour. 

 

There is a part of me that's more puritanical with fluff, but again, that part already wrote the Custodes off when they became active away from Terra. Thematically, what Custodes originally represented was annihilated well before this change. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The introduction of a LOT of new units to various factions were called out by the playerbase, especially because GW's method of introduction usually reduced itself to "no, this isn't new, it's been there all along!"  You know, like their tweet confirming Custodes claimed.

 

I remember the first appearance of Centurion warsuits.  I remember seeing leaked pictures, posted here on these very forums, showing the back of the models where you could see the back of the leg of the power armor where the war suit armor doesn't completely enclose the "boot" and lower leg.  People began mocking this new model, and the most popular joke was a reference to a TV show at the time called "Pimp My Ride."  If you're unfamiliar, the host Xzibit would glow-up the crappy cars of young people based on their interests, usually with an explanation of "Yo dawg, I heard you like X so I put X in there so you can X while you X."  Cue early memes about "Yo dawg, I heard you like power armor so I put power armor on your power armor so you can power armor while you power armor."

 

The Heldrake and Mauler/Forgefiends were received with scorn at the styling, and were maligned as "dinobots."

 

There are still people in the hobby who adamantly refuse to use anything that even appears to be a Primaris Space Marine.

 

But now?  These things are accepted.  There's a lot of controversy over this change -- and I stand by my earlier statement that this is a change, and I will send receipts via PM if it's that important to someone -- but it's not a fundamental change to the setting.  The Chaos Gods aren't going to rip apart the Golden Throne because one of the immortal demigod Primarch-ish power-level guardians of the Emperor needs a little extra space beneath their plastron.  The game will continue.  Those who like it will enjoy it, those who don't will either leave, or on a long enough timeline will just accept this change the same as how dinobots, Centurions, and Primaris have been accepted.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

So, I think part of the issue surrounding this discourse is the way that GW handled the retconning of the custodes being all male. If all the info we got on female custodes came from the codex with the blood games story and female shield captain, I think the community might have handled it a lot better, but as we all know the Warhammer Twitter account tweeted "Since the first of the Ten Thousand were created, there have always been female custodes" which sours things a bit.

 

To my knowledge (and please correct me if I'm wrong)  a lore change like this hasn't been before on social media and It sucks to have a change to 40k be from outside the world of this franchise. It makes the whole ordeal feel more retroactive in a way than if the change had just been from the codex.

 

Personally, I don't mind the change. More cool modelling options and representation I suppose, and that's all groovy with me. I just wish GW would let the world and the narrative speak for itself instead of changing things from an outside meta-perspective.

[AutumnEffect]

4 hours ago, Trysanna said:

Joking aside, I've seen so many people, mostly women, totally jazzed for this change. My social media is currently full of excited women who are now interested in the faction where they previously didn't care that much, or had already headcannoned some Custodes as women. Heck, I've already seen people pump out some pretty nice art of female custodes and it's been like, two days since the news.

 

I want to second this.

I have a few female friends involved in the hobby and all of them have been very excited about this.

I'm glad that we have post-human super soldier women now. It's embarrassingly overdue.

[Duymon]

Consideirng the gene editing process begins on infants and knowing the male/female dimorphism isn't really expressed until puberty it really wouldn't matter what gender the custodes was before the process they'd still end up looking like the roided freaks we know and love because of how much grimdark-grade testosterone they got pumped up with in order to meet the physical demands of guarding the emperor and being able to smack down any threat to the emperor with overwhelming force.

 

I'm not expecting any huge changes to the aesthetics of the custodes except now maybe you'll have a few long-haired genetic space freaks but we're already used to that with the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Emperor's Children so whatever

Edited April 16 by Duymon

[AutumnEffect]

5 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

This does, however, beg the question why male-only organizations are such a bad thing that need to be broken up, but female-only ones are A-OK. Unless we're going to be getting Misters of Silence and Femboys of Battle* in the future, it seems a touch odd to single out one of the two possible gender-exclusive clubs.

The thing that I find a touch odd, is that, until now, there were no female transhumans. I'm sure people will bring up Assassins or something else that's niche as a red herring, but we all know what I mean.
There was no faction that has/had transhuman women badasses that could kick ass and take names. Zippo, zilch, nada. 

[Nephaston]

Coincidentally the first rumours of new stuff for 30k custodes started to pop up. Would be a relative good place for new custodes "basic" infantry, at a better scale and with some choice of heads.

[Nephaston]

12 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

The thing that I find a touch odd, is that, until now, there were no female transhumans. I'm sure people will bring up Assassins or something else that's niche as a red herring, but we all know what I mean.
There was no faction that has/had transhuman women badasses that could kick ass and take names. Zippo, zilch, nada. 

Technically Admech counts as transhuman, but in the cyborg sense. Other than that only Biles Gland Hounds and Homo Novus might apply, but those won't see the tabletop any time soon if at all.

[Doctor Perils]

5 hours ago, Roomsky said:

So yeah, I guess I'd be fine with a sex-neutral Order of Silence as well, as nothing about them is traditionally feminine but their armour. 

This is also a good point - not only does including women in the Custodes not make them any less masculine coded, but the Sisters of Silence don't really embody many traditionally feminine values. The only tangible way they reflect the feminine experience is ironically how they are "silenced", which is apparently a poignant metaphor for how women are treated in some hobby circles...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

On a Lore front. I've also been finding it interesting that a lot of people. (Well, men) Keep pointing to this one quote about noble Terrain families sending their SONS off to be custodians as evidence that Custodians could only be men.

 

With respect, that's perhaps looking at it the wrong way around. That's not the quote saying that daughters couldn't be turned into custodians, more that the noble families didn't value their daughters enough to send them.

 

Those noble families aren't sending their sons to be custodians for altruistic reasons, they're sending them to have a seat at the new powerful table the Emperor has made for himself, seeking that power for their own families.

[LemanPuss]

It's a cheap pandering gesture that was lazily executed and which they think is good for business.

 

Sometimes they create wonderful art and stories, and then sometimes, like with the story behind the primaris (hidden in a giant but very secret cupboard for 100 centuries) you question whether they proof read their own material or receive constructive feedback. 

[Captain Idaho]

@Trysanna thanks for your extensive reply, much appreciated.

 

You're right there is a case of masculine and feminine in a literal sense where men can be feminine in a number of ways etc. I totally get that.

 

The idea that I was saying appeals for me is more of an intrinsic, subconscious level that appeals to people like me. As an example, watching a Gina Carano pummel Colossus in Dead Pool was cool but I don't feel an actual connection to her in the way I did watching 300 and Captain Artemis lose it when he looked on in pride of his son only to see him fall.

 

Similarly, watching Dredd and Anderson in the film of Dredd was great to watch. The direct and brutal masculine of Dredd and the psychic and intelligent Anderson in his wake bug never his shadow. Good dynamic.

 

I get those things as they directly appeal to me. Just for clarity and to make sure it isn't missed by those who may take a cursory glance at this post (sorry for the long text also) but it is my perspective.

 

I love my perspective and what appeals to me might not appeal to others. If female Custodes brings in thousands more than it puts off so be it! Good move by the hobby!

 

But not for me. I wouldn't be appealed to by the change and it actively detracts me from the Custodes and even game universe a little. This is because it doesn't appeal to me.

 

Whether it appeals to young masses I don't know but I can say that the hobby is predominantly male and that won't change no matter how many times I show female models to girls on a tinder date 

 

My boys, 2 and growing, follow my trends also.

 

(It's probably a different topic to discuss the market and my brain can't cope with that so it's a passing reference only)

 

Anyway, disastrous dating stories aside, I do feel like there's space in 40K for factions that are mixed sex and those that aren't. There can be a narrative for everyone somewhere and I feel the narrative is only going for one theme at present which just turns me away.

Edited April 17 by Captain Idaho
Spelling!

[Robbienw]

7 hours ago, Trysanna said:

Also very funny that a bunch of you are saying the women only armies should include men now, which okay sure, you guys can be part of the SoS, but by that logic women should be included in every Space Marine faction too. Gotta keep it all fair, right?

No, we aren’t saying that, just for the SoS.  The design contrast between Custodes being male and sisters female is gone now so there is no valid reason for there not to be Brothers of Silence.  It will be hypocritical of them if they don’t.

 

You’d still have exclusively female Sisters of Battles as a mirror to exclusively male Space Marine.

[Captain Idaho]

5 minutes ago, Trysanna said:

I totally understand the way you can just connect to a character more based on their gender, it's why this stuff is important to me. I'd never want to take that away from someone, it's so rewarding to really connect to a character and to see yourself in them. I want more people to experience that. Damn near every woman I've talked to about 40k has expressed dissapointment in there being no female super soldiers on the same level as Marines, and I personally feel that too. Marines are my absolute favourite thing in 40k, I want to see women included in their ranks, especially because they make up so much of modern 40k. I don't super have a point here, just that I don't want this change to take anything away from anyone but I also want to see people like me included in within at least one super-soldier faction.

(Also like, how dare you apologize for a long post, have you seen how long winded I am? I exhaust myself)

(Also also I really know what it's like to show a girl your into the warhammer you paint and have them be completely uninterested. No sword will ever cut as deep )

 

You've hit the nail on the head there; it's personal. It might be a great change, it might be a terrible change, it most likely won't change things much at all and we're posting about this in vein (lol)

 

If it's a good change and I'm someone who it doesn't appeal to, then so be it! The hobby isn't mine after all.

 

That's how we should all be of course.

 

Anyway, that's my position on it and I hope I've illustrated a different angle that shows not every differing opinion has to be a line drawn the sand type of thing.

[Robbienw]

No, the bald top knot hair style would work, but for the power amour that's kind of fetish-like and wouldn't work as a general rule.  If they want to go to the effort of making female Custodes, they should make them look distinct.  Like the Necromunda gangs that have female members where the bodies are outfitted like the men but are distinctly female.  The Van Saar and Orlock women are a good example of this without it being overdone.  And vice versa for male Silents.

Edited April 16 by Robbienw

[AutumnEffect]

8 minutes ago, Trysanna said:

But why would they have to look different?

 

They don't, tbh.

 

Considering all there is at the moment is a couple instances of Custodes using female pronouns, all we need to make it 'fair' is a couple instances of Sisters using male pronouns. 

[Robbienw]

10 minutes ago, Trysanna said:

But why would they have to look different? Can't men and women just wear the same gear and not require gender-specific looks?

 

Because men and women look distinct of course.  Otherwise you might as well just have everyone being indistinct like an artists mannequin 

 

Look at the Stormcast for example, as they are similar in look to Custodes.  The women have the same gear but with some body and face changes so they are clearly women.  Do the same for Custodes and Silents. 

 

Otherwise its pointless, you just end with the male body female head effect as on Cadians, which looks odd.  Particularly in a mixed unit.

[AutumnEffect]

9 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

Otherwise its pointless, you just end with the male body female head effect as on Cadians, which looks odd.  Particularly in a mixed unit.

 

I haven't noticed it looking odd in my Cadians, but you can't really quantify something like this.

But women, at least in my opinion, don't look hyper-distinct when they are wearing a modern military dress.


Things have possibly changed, but according to a friend of mine who served, women don't get a 'women's bulletproof vest'.
As she put it: "You cram everything in a sports bra, you're uncomfortable and you live with it."

 

15 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

 

Because men and women look distinct of course.  Otherwise you might as well just have everyone being indistinct like an artists mannequin 

 

Putting aside the fact that men and women comprise an incredibly vast spectrum.

With the statement from Games Workshop that women Custodes have always been a part of the ten thousand, then yes, they look exactly the same as those using male pronouns until we have a model to compare to that confirms otherwise.

The only artistic examples of transhumans in 40k are male, so we don't have anything to suggest at all what a female transhuman of any stripe would look like from which we can extrapolate an appearance.

In the absence of information, all we can really draw on is yeah, they aren't distinctly different looking when wearing armor.

[Robbienw]

6 minutes ago, Trysanna said:

Do they tho?

 

Yeah they do.  They are called out as specifically female.  The process isn't going to transmogrify them into men, and if it did then there wouldn't be any female Custodes 

 

The process transforms the body one into a superhuman one, but you still have huge base muscloskeletal differences between men and women.  The process still leaves men looking recognizably male and not something else entirely.  I see no reason why it would make women look like men, that would be odd.

 

You still see a lot of difference in combat gear ready men and women in modern militaries.  Facial and body structures and general heights are not changed by utility uniforms and body armour.  Female body builders still look distinct from men.