Adeptus Custodes Officially Include Women

[TrawlingCleaner]

10 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

It should have been an introduction though. Just telling people that they have actually always been there is a lazy way to go about it.

 

This topic might get a pass because some folks really wanted to see this outcome, so consider that Primaris and their supposed "secret plan ten thousand years in the making" also went over like a lead balloon. People generally do not like big changes delivered via retcon.

 

I think there's a two fold thing here:

1) The people that run the social media accounts are not loremasters, they've been told very little in the way of actual lore. I do feel for the people that run social media accounts for companies, they get a lot of flakk

 

2) How else do you introduce something like this?

From a meta(?) perspective, if you introduce women being inducted because there's low numbers of Custodes (say after SoT) does that not sound like they're scraping the barrel or they have no other choice so to speak? Realistically in that scenario they'd have had the tech to do it up until that point, why didn't they? That gets worse the further along the timeline you push that too

If they go the route of having a scientific breakthrough for it, what was the cause of it not working before? Why did the Emperor, literal God of Humanity with near infinite power and knowledge, not know how to do this? Or any other tech-priest after 10k years know how to do it?

 

"They've always been there but have yet to have focus in novels so far" probably feels like a nicer way of updating 20 year old crusty lore (there's plenty more where that comes from too). There haven't been that many Custodes focused books in the grand scheme of things, it would've been better to have done it 8 years ago as ADB suggested but ho hum. I think the change is excellent as more representation is what 40k needs. The hobby and it's surrounding universe is enriched by the people in it and the more diverse perspectives there are the better the hobby is for it

[Marshall Bretton]

I really don't get what people's issue is here but I understand that we all have our own opinions. Just a few observations from me:

 

We know the process for making custodes basically rewrites their DNA from the ground up when they are about 3 or 4. In reality that would basically homogenise all custodes to the point where there wasn't really any difference between male and female other than genitalia. Realistically their faces would probably even look the same.

 

There are lots of people arguing about differences in appearance between male and female soldiers. I can tell you with first hand experience, when we are all kitted up in combat gear it is really hard to tell male from female. Even height isn't a factor, i have male soldiers who are about 5'6" and females who are 6'. The only easy way to tell is hair styles if a female has a bun sticking out from the back of her helmet but that is preference as many choose not to have hair like that. If you change our combat gear to massive war plate that physically covers every part of your body including an all enclosing helmet, I guarantee that you  wouldn't be able to tell the difference in any way.

 

I'm terms of existing lore, terms like brotherhood etc, everyone uses terms like that nowadays in a generic sense. The brotherhood of steel in fallout for example. We know they have female members, does that break the lore? Just because we have never specifically seen a female custodian until now doesn't mean they haven't existed, how many anonymous custodians with their helmets on that we have seen were women? How would we know they weren't?

 

Finally I have seen references to the custodians being based on the companions of Alexander and other organisations and this is what causes the issue. The key thing is they are based on these organisations, not clones of them. It's like saying that because catachans are based on the US army in Vietnam, they can never have women because there were no female combat soldiers in Vietnam. That just makes no sense, the point is that's it's based on.

 

 

Anyway just my 2 cents, I personally think it's a great move and have no objection to it. I won't be converting any models or anything because the bodies would be the same and any custodian on the battlefield without a helmet on would just never happen because that would be insane, but doesn't mean some of my models won't be headcannon women!

 

 

[Sete]

If anything this is a great excuse to expand the range. Add a few more units to custodes. 

Like a Kill Team, or Plastic Dreads and Tanks and flyers.

Edited April 16 by Sete

[Nephaston]

20 minutes ago, Marshall Bretton said:

We know the process for making custodes basically rewrites their DNA from the ground up when they are about 3 or 4. In reality that would basically homogenise all custodes to the point where there wasn't really any difference between male and female other than genitalia. Realistically their faces would probably even look the same.

They might, but at least according to Shield Captain Valerian " We were the first glimpse of what the species could become, if shepherded aright and unshackled from its vicious weaknesses." which depending on how E-money rollls might go either way, but I think they'll end up like stormcast in a sense that they are their best possible version.

And even now the look very different; Trajann Valoris is your stern old man, Valerian is a handsome blonde, Maldovar Colquan is a perpetually unamused asian.

[Doctor Perils]

@Robbienw do Imperial Knights and Titans have different models depending on if their pilot is masculine, feminine or non-binary?

 

Well no they don't, because they're mechs.

 

OK, so what is power armour if not a miniature mech? We've seen how much extra kit and layers of armour go into space marine armour, so it stands to reason Custodes power armour is similar, but also bespokely fitted for each individual wearing it, even more so than space marines. You design the exterior to provide the best protective qualities, and the interior to provide the best fit: no reason they should look particularly different from the outside.

[Robbienw]

1 minute ago, Doctor Perils said:

@Robbienw do Imperial Knights and Titans have different models depending on if their pilot is masculine, feminine or non-binary?

 

Well no they don't, because they're mechs.

 

OK, so what is power armour if not a miniature mech? We've seen how much extra kit and layers of armour go into space marine armour, so it stands to reason Custodes power armour is similar, but also bespokely fitted for each individual wearing it, even more so than space marines. You design the exterior to provide the best protective qualities, and the interior to provide the best fit: no reason they should look particularly different from the outside.

 

No of course they don't differentiate in form between male or female crew.  They are crewed war engines.

 

You can't compare that with form fitting suits of individual armour 

[Doctor Perils]

4 hours ago, Robbienw said:

No, the bald top knot hair style would work, but for the power amour that's kind of fetish-like and wouldn't work as a general rule. 

We do agree it would be wrong for only feminine presenting models to wear fetish-like gear, don't we? It would be wrong to sexualise the representation of only one gender in our little plastic toys, right?! We are in agreement on this point, aren't we?!

1 minute ago, Robbienw said:

 

No of course they don't differentiate in form between male or female crew.  They are crewed war engines.

 

You can't compare that with form fitting suits of individual armour 

Custodes armour isn't skin tight and form fitting though? It's power armour.

[Robbienw]

8 minutes ago, Doctor Perils said:

Custodes armour isn't skin tight and form fitting though? It's power armour.

 

It follows the human form, as does Vratine armour.  Its not comparable to a crewed vehicle like a titan, sentinel, Knight, Leman Russ Thunderhawk etc 

 

It would be comparable to the amour the crew of these vehicles would have, like the personal armour the knight pilots wear.

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= Reminder to stay civil folks, I've hidden some sniping comments. If you feel a comment is out of line or breaking our rules the best thing to do is report it and move on =][=

[Indy Techwisp]

I can't wait for some random book to imply that the plumes sticking out the top of the Custodes helmets are just a really, really tall hairstyle and the helmets have a hole in the top.

 

But in all seriousness, since Custodes as the guards of the Emperor are all about peak efficiency, it stands to reason that their armour design is the most efficient for its purpose regardless of the occupant.

The interior can be tailored to the individual and the exterior provides that efficiently designed protection required for their role.

 

I feel that because the previous reason we didn't get female Custodes was a lack of females in the kits, there's a good chance we've got a model update on the way (which will probably just have female head options, like how a number of other kits have male and female bodies being indistinguishable with the only difference being the head option).

Alternatively the Custodes become more like Stormcast with the update, wherein he armour will, in fact, represent the wearer's biological sex (tho probably not overtly or extremely so).

 

IMO if people want a kit/unit which really emphasises the Custodes for whats beneath the armour, we need an "Eyes of the Emperor" unit.

Since these Custodes have shed their armour and "traditional" polearm weapons in favour of a more espionage role, they'd make for a decently tough Infiltrate/Scout unit for the Talons army.

Since the Eyes of the Emperor don't wear the traditional armour, this would be a place to show off the unarmoured Custodes physique without really messing with the traditional Custodes visuals.

Genuinely not sure what weapons the Eyes of the Emperor actually use, but I'd guess its a Master-Crafted version of whatever it is (probably a Bolter of some kind).

Edited April 16 by Indy Techwisp
Editing for typos and to add some clarification to a suggestion. EDIT 2: Fixing a typo in the Edit reason.

[Doctor Perils]

10 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I can't wait for some random book to imply that the plumes sticking out the top of the Custodes helmets are just a really, really tall hairstyle and the helmets have a hole in the top.

Yep that's a fun image

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Sete said:

If anything this is a great excuse to expand the range. Add a few more units to custodes. 

 

If the 3rd party mini market for other factions is any indication, the range will definitely expand. Maybe not in the way some people are hoping, but the Internet being the Internet means there will be many new sculpts taking advantage of lore-friendly female Custodes.

[Crimson Longinus]

8 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

The thing that I find a touch odd, is that, until now, there were no female transhumans. I'm sure people will bring up Assassins or something else that's niche as a red herring, but we all know what I mean.
There was no faction that has/had transhuman women badasses that could kick ass and take names. Zippo, zilch, nada. 

 

It is because the sort of superhuman marines and custodes are, a big muscular and powerful hulk is a male power fantasy and some men are super threatened if women are allowed to be that. Sad but true. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

38 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I can't wait for some random book to imply that the plumes sticking out the top of the Custodes helmets are just a really, really tall hairstyle and the helmets have a hole in the top.

This isn't any more mad than top knots on marine helmets to be honest. Is that their hair? Is there a hole in the top of the helmet to let the top knot out? Do they have to let their actual top knots down before donning a helmet decorated with a false top knot?

[Indy Techwisp]

8 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

The thing that I find a touch odd, is that, until now, there were no female transhumans. I'm sure people will bring up Assassins or something else that's niche as a red herring, but we all know what I mean.
There was no faction that has/had transhuman women badasses that could kick ass and take names. Zippo, zilch, nada. 

 

Technically, Warhammer does have an army which includes both Male and Female Transhumans in the army.

It's just not an army in 40k.

 

The Stormcast Eternals fit that Transhuman niche for a Warhammer faction and Sigmar's been reforging people of all biological makeups to expand his ranks of Sigmarines.

 

In that Aspect, 40k's fallen behind the curve a bit, so adding female transhumans to the army most visually comparable to Stormcast makes sense from a business perspective.

There's already golden armoured Transhuman ladies produced by GW, so you introduce that familiar concept first before you try and really push the envelope (if that's even the route they're trying to go down at this point.)

[phandaal]

42 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

It is because the sort of superhuman marines and custodes are, a big muscular and powerful hulk is a male power fantasy and some men are super threatened if women are allowed to be that. Sad but true. 

 

These will mostly still be purchased by men, even once female sculpts are included in the model kits. Surveys have confirmed over the years that something like 95% of the interest for these types of hobbies is from men, and the ratios do not tend to change much even when more female-centric stories and merchandise is included.

 

Warhammer 40k's "problem" (as it related to getting more women customers anyway) is that it is a wargame, not that it does not have enough female sculpts in model kits.

 

Female Custodes may or may not move the needle there, but most of them will still be purchased by men.

[LemanPuss]

Agree with Phandaal.

 

Personally, my favourite factions are all male, I find the girls must have girl minis argument extremely patronising. 

 

The green boyz are the best thing GW do imo.

[Robbienw]

Its made mainstream news, there is an article in the daily mail of all places 

[Marshall Bretton]

17 minutes ago, LemanPuss said:

Agree with Phandaal.

 

Personally, my favourite factions are all male, I find the girls must have girl minis argument extremely patronising. 

 

The green boyz are the best thing GW do imo.

 

I have to disagree. My favourite factions are the ones that actually represent reality. I don't think this is a case of girls must have girl models. I think it is a case of actually models should reflect the reality. There should be female guard models because there are female humans, it's reality they would be in the guard. Same for tau, eldar etc. I personally find it more patronising when people refuse to accept reality when creating models or lore (specifically referring to companies behind the games, not anyone on these forums for clarity)

 

The exceptions are the really specific races where there is specific existing lore to prevent it:

 

Marines (without opening a debate about whether they should or shouldn't exist, just stating lore) - the process doesn't allow it.

Necrons - no reason female necrons wouldn't exist and they really should as characters, but in terms of models, they are supposed to be uniform with the entire race forced into identical bodies. The only females that would exist would be some of the very few that actually retained a level of sentience. The rest are basically just robots.

Orks - actually have no gender, are literally fungus.

Sisters of battle - the whole point is they are a way to get around the wording "men under arms" so have to be all women.

 

When it comes to custodes, there has never been any reason that there shouldn't be females, so what's wrong with introducing them?

 

 

On a complete side note I do think this is a really interesting and healthy debate and I really hope that people get something positive out of the discussions at least. Mods I really appreciate the work that is clearly going into keeping this healthy and I appeal to you to keep it going.

 

[Indy Techwisp]

45 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

These will mostly still be purchased by men, even once female sculpts are included in the model kits. Surveys have confirmed over the years that something like 95% of the interest for these types of hobbies is from men, and the ratios do not tend to change much even when more female-centric stories and merchandise is included.

 

Warhammer 40k's "problem" (as it related to getting more women customers anyway) is that it is a wargame, not that it does not have enough female sculpts in model kits.

 

Female Custodes may or may not move the needle there, but most of them will still be purchased by men.

 

While yes, these kits will still be bought mostly by men, there's more women getting into the hobby in recent years than before.

That 95% Male will change, given time, as it becomes more societally acceptable for a Woman to get into Wargaming.

It's a change happening in all "male oriented" roles/hobbies and the inverse is true as well (although not as commonly referenced or commented about).

So it's not really a "Girls need Girl Minis" thing or whatever, it's a matter of time and actually letting these prospective people enter the hobby.

 

IIRC, wasn't there a poll which showed the most popular faction picked up my Female players was Orks?

[Robbienw]

3 minutes ago, Marshall Bretton said:

When it comes to custodes, there has never been any reason that there shouldn't be females, so what's wrong with introducing them?

 

There actually has. I think the reason why its seen as wrong to introduced them is twofold:

 

Previously produced lore where they are stated to be all male and have been shown to be entirely male in various art and BL fiction - many will solely object to that because its a sudden very abrupt change.  Not least of all because it has a strange as yet unknown effect on a 60+ novel HH series that has only just concluded.  It affects 30k far more than 40k.

 

Secondly, like Marines the Custodes are the top military elite.  Elite units have extremely stringent requirements in the real world and seemingly in 40k. A miniscule percentage of the very best hardest men make it through training to be one, a vanishingly small amount.  It seems hard to believe any women would make it given innate physical differences and the gap there would be between women and men in the respective top percentiles.  This is ameliorated a bit by some peoples perception of this being based more in Hollywood depictions rather than real life, but probably still a factor.

 

 

[phandaal]

14 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

That 95% Male will change, given time, as it becomes more societally acceptable for a Woman to get into Wargaming.

It's a change happening in all "male oriented" roles/hobbies and the inverse is true as well (although not as commonly referenced or commented about).

 

Without veering too far off topic, it is not society that keeps women from wargaming. It is preference. Some women are interested in these kinds of hobbies, most are not, and that is fine. People who are interested in 40k will find their way here. Just like there are hobbies that have a significantly higher percentage of female enjoyers. Aiming for parity in all interests is counterproductive, because there are some things that just do not appeal to certain people.

 

25 minutes ago, Marshall Bretton said:

When it comes to custodes, there has never been any reason that there shouldn't be females, so what's wrong with introducing them?

 

"Wrong" is a charged term, but I would guess a lot of people thought the Custodes process worked similarly to the distinction between men and women in the real world. For example, women competing in the Olympics could whup plenty of men without breaking a sweat, but when stacked up to their male peers they would not make the rankings.

 

If the Custodes' evolution process preserved that difference in strength, then over time it would make sense for the input fodder to be male.

 

With this latest lore change though, it does not work that way - the process creates the same output no matter the gender.

[Indy Techwisp]

12 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

 

There actually has. I think the reason why its seen as wrong to introduced them is twofold:

 

Previously produced lore where they are stated to be all male and have been shown to be entirely male in various art and BL fiction - many will solely object to that because its a sudden very abrupt change.  Not least of all because it has a strange as yet unknown effect on a 60+ novel HH series that has only just concluded.  It affects 30k far more than 40k.

 

Secondly, like Marines the Custodes are the top military elite.  Elite units have extremely stringent requirements in the real world and seemingly in 40k. A miniscule percentage of the very best hardest men make it through training to be one, a vanishingly small amount.  It seems hard to believe any women would make it given innate physical differences and the gap there would be between women and men in the respective top percentiles.  This is ameliorated a bit by some peoples perception of this being based more in Hollywood depictions rather than real life, but probably still a factor.

 

So.

Two things.

 

1) We have proof from ADB that Female Custodes were intended from the start and were only excluded because the standing at the time was "Sorry, but the minis we made were male." A couple of the more recent HH books have definitely slipped in a couple "gender ambiguous" depictions of Custodes in places where prior to this new lore someone could assume there was a SoS in the scene for example one passage has Sanguinius note the golden armoured "men and women" guarding his Dad (but not all of them make sense in that way, since Big E tends to keep the SoS away from him 'cause of them being uberblanks).

Additionally, the only real in-text statement of explicitly male Custodes is from the 8th Ed codex, where one line says they recruit from the sons of Terran nobles. The passage directly after that says they also recruit during missions and in ways only they know about. Also a number of lines from that same codex are reused in the new one but with less male-specific language.

 

As for the art, see the "minis were male" thing. If it was studio policy to not bring up female Custodes yet, the art team would also be beholden to that.

 

2) To make a custodes, you take a baby, break it down to its soul and base components and then using Arcane technowizardry rebuild the baby into a literal 9ft tall Demigod. That's all we know about the process. So why couldn't you take a female baby through the same process? These Custodes are a glimpse into the evolution of humanity Big E is striving for, and humanity as a concept doesn't preclude women. If anyone could push the human form so far past it's natural limits like Big E has, why is it not reasonable to assume they could also eliminate this "gap" in strength?

[Roomsky]

31 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

Secondly, like Marines the Custodes are the top military elite.  Elite units have extremely stringent requirements in the real world and seemingly in 40k. A miniscule percentage of the very best hardest men make it through training to be one, a vanishingly small amount.  It seems hard to believe any women would make it given innate physical differences and the gap there would be between women and men in the respective top percentiles.  This is ameliorated a bit by some peoples perception of this being based more in Hollywood depictions rather than real life, but probably still a factor.

 

Custodes creation begins at the developmental stage before any significant difference between strength or form between the sexes, as the process begins before they hit puberty. What's more, the Custodes have already been very specific that every facet of their being is hand-crafted when they're being created, which implies they don't have induced "hyper-puberty" or something similar. And on top of that, Custodes reliably being made from hostages of rebellious nobility means that physical acumen doesn't factor into it anyway. Their creation process isn't analogous to real-life military training on any level.

 

Also, gene science in 40k is effectively magic.

Edited April 16 by Roomsky

[Indy Techwisp]

Also, 3 bonus things.

 

1) Where was this controversy when the Votann were unsquatted or when the Guard spontaneously gained a new Tank which had "always been there" as per GW? It's the exact same issue, but they had no outrage at all iirc.

 

2) Female Stormcast are equally as strong as Male Stormcast, and since that's currently our only GW example of Female Transhumans, I'd say that's a good place to look to see how they're handled.

 

3) The last time GW made up in-universe reasoning for a change in the same ballpark as this we got Primaris Marines, and since we still have people complaining about them nearly a decade on from that, I think GW made the right call to just use their traditional, in use since the start of the game method of adding new things to the lore of "Yeah, that's always been a thing." rather than risk another decade long hot topic like Primaris turned into.