Unit of the week CSM 10th edition Unit of the week: Legionaries

[Cpt.Danjou]

 

CSM 10th edition Legionaries

 

This is a topic about Chaos Space Marine Legionaries in the 10th edition.

 

• Do you use them?
• How are you using them?
• Do you think they perform well
• How do you equip them?
• Do you use any transports with them?
• Do you attach any characters?
• Is there a detachment that they are extra crucial?

Edited July 10 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Cpt.Danjou]

These are our bread and butter boys, I never leave home without them, usually two full units in every game, many times I bring more. They have never let me down. I usually keep them kind of clean with maybe a reaper chaincannon, and a heavy melee weapon or two, just for the extra punch in close combat. Of course I always bring an icon, which my champion is carrying. These days I usually attach a Chaos lord, and often a Rhino.

 

I can't say if how well they perform in other detachments than Veterans of the Long War, Soulforged Warpack, and Pact-bound Zealots, but in all those detachments they have been useful. In the Soulforge Warpack my opponent got kind of surprised when the Rhino rushed straight through a building taking an objective an unloading a full brick of Legionaries. I usually don't use stratagems on them if I have not used a Battletactic stratagem earlier on a heavy hitter unit, so it does not matter for me if they are in a detachement that don't have any stratgems they can use, except the standard one.

 

Plus they look awesome.

 

Cpl. Danjou

[abaumann]

These guys are awesome so far for me. I like running them in small squads in rhinos. The double heavy melee weapon is nice. Might try a bigger squad soon…they could be almost as good as chosen…sorta. 

[Brother Nathan]

Not had a game yet with the codex but im planning fellhammer-

2 5 man squads. With all the extras. Either double heavy melee weapon or accursed and heavy. Balefire tome lascannon. Icon.  All in a rhino... possibly thinking a lord in one squad as well as cypher.... oh and swap all remaining bolters for chainswords

 

yeah its a lot of points but im thinking. 2 models can shoot out. Both las can shoot out. But thats just an added extra. The tomes can likely do more damage than bolters normally wound. But really these guys are for combat. They arnt stopping to shoot they just do to distract. 

Anyway if rhino gets the chance it can move full shoot las. . Squads all disembark and you have more options than a 10 man. You have more melee than a 10 man. And better shooting as you can double up technically and 2 tomes... you dont get the same benifit with strats. But the extra weapons and 2 squads over 1 for options  seems feasable. 

[MadEdric]

Legionaries are great.  They are the base of any list. I use 25-35 in each list. Usually one 10 man of shooting and assault focused, with 5 man squads added to taste.

Shooting squads usually have heavy bolter/ chain cannon with the champion having an accursed weapon. I'll be adding autocannons and missile launchers someday. These guys are mainly used to take hold back objectives or move up into no mans land after other units soften up or take an objective.

Assault squads take all the plasma pistols and heavy weapons they can, they are great for assaulting objectives with their reroll wounds ability.

I've tried attaching a sorcerer to the 10 man shooting squads and want to use him more with them. The -1 to hit is pretty nice.

The large assault squad almost always has a MOE or Lord with them to increase their punch.

I almost always have 2 rhinos for these guys, one for the large assault squad, a second is for who needs it depending on the mission.

 

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Legionaire loadouts are actually something I've been giving a lot of thought to recently, as I've been "upgrading" a melee noise marine squad to be a legionaires squad.  In doing so, I've had a few questions:

 

1.  Is there much of a role for bolter armed legionaires versus chainsword ones?  I mean, outside of the odd shooting squad to grab objectives and such?

 

2.  In a melee squad, is it worth it to take the psycher upgrade?  Is the firepower it offers worth the degradation in its melee ability?   I guess the same thoughts apply to heavy and special weapons, as only the plasma pistol doesn't come with a corresponding drop in melee power for that model.

 

3.  If one does go with heavy/special weapons, what ones?  Plasma pistol seems the most natural fit, but is one of the weaker ones - and taking one lets your spread out the failed hazardous tests so as not to kill your champion, as such tests aren't model by model but are instead pooled.  (Oddly, given the history of their rules and uses) Heavy weapons seem generally better than special weapons, though the plasmagun does give you an even bigger pool for hazardous casualties.  I see the reaper is popular, though I would have thought a melee squad would have enough anti-chaff power and would more likely want some antitank... though, I suppose that depends on the rest of the list.

 

I haven't had any games since the codex came out, but in my last game under the index I ran a squad with a sorceror - I think that's definitely how I will run them until I get them a ride, as the -1 to be hit (which also applies in melee) really helps them get where they want and then be able to hang around a bit once they get there.

[Brother Nathan]

not played either but depending o rest of list....

 

1... bolters seem redundant. the ap on chainsword combined with the units rerolls makes em want to get in... so you want those choppy options...

 

2..2 shots at str5 ap1 1 damage. id take it over a bolter but over an extra attack in melee and all having ap... i mean hard call. i want to to confuse my opponent as to this squads uses... and have options so likely will. im firing lascannons in as yes the squad arnt likely to sit still but the occasional freem of something tough gives real options that even powerfists dont hit..

 

3 with such its more what do you want options against.  infantry or tough stuff. most such options do one or the other. lascannon for tanks, plas for tough infantry. heavy bolters and such for infantry etc. if its not better than the attacks dont bother. personally ill take las. can see heavy bolter being worthwhile... and missile launcher gives options without being as good as either. plasma pistol if you like none of the above... 

 

the real question is where are you sticking your icon...

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Thanks, Nathan, that was very helpful.

 

As for the icon, that's pretty simple, actually - there is the right answer and the right for me/you answer.   

 

The right answer is to stick it on the model you most want to keep around that doesn't have a harzardous weapon.  Typically I would think this would be the heavy melee weapon guy, but it would depend on your force and your needs.  This is because it simplifies casualty removal and helps ensure you keep the icon for as long as possible as you take casualties.

 

The right for me answer is to give it to a bog standard squaddie as all my icons are standards (so, flags on poles or icons on poles) and that's what looks best.  From a effectiveness perspective, this is not optimal but I'm willing to accept that to get the look for my guys that I want.  In the same vein, the right for you answer might be putting it on their champion as that's the model they want to make look the most imposing, even when the champion's plasma pistol has the potential to kill the icon off with a bad hazardous roll.

Edited July 3 by Dr_Ruminahui

[gaurdian31]

I've only played one game with the new codex and they were great. Renegade Raiders giving guns assault makes them great little mobile heavy weapons platforms. I still pushed them up field with a chaos lord and had a chain cannon in the squad that did good work softening up targets for the the chain sword boys and lord with hammer to clean up.

[legoman]

I have played lots of games with the index and 2 with the codex using Pactbound Zealots. Originally I has 1 squad of 5 with bolters and a missile launcher, and another squad of 5 with chainswords and a power fist. This was just how I decided to build them out of the box as at that stage I had no intention of playing the game.

 

The unit with bolters has never really done anything - perhaps a squad of 5 is really too small to do much damage. However the chainsword squad (accompanied by a Lord) has always been fantastic. I give them the mark of Slaanesh for the sustained hits which also works well with the Lord as you can get some extra hits which have a high chance of doing damage with his daemon hammer due to its good strength and AP. It also means you can use the Torpefying Refrain (random name!) stratagem using the Lords free CP to move then advance then charge to get them into combat ASAP. Once they get into combat they will then go through most other normal infantry (in my experience!), although obviously aren't going to be as effective against higher toughness targets, eg terminators. 

[Dr. Clock]

On 6/28/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cpt.Danjou said:

Do you use them?

I mostly play Khorne, but when I dabble in CSM - absolutely... plus I play against them pretty regularly with lots of other armies, so some of this is based on being their opponent.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cpt.Danjou said:

How are you using them?

Frontline assault and scoring.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cpt.Danjou said:

Do you think they perform well

They excel as either MSU scoring pieces or a budget beatstick with a character thrown in. For the points, flexibility and abilities, they are just more efficient than competing marine battleline units IMO, with notable slight exception of Crusader squads. So they perform well, if they are suitably assigned.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cpt.Danjou said:

How do you equip them?

This really almost doesn't matter, I find tbh. I would always start with 2x5 with chainswords, heavy weapons (las and/or rotary is a great shout rn, but HB or missile won't go amiss) with mix of sergeant kit. A second 2x5 could get bolters on the expectation that the bolter unit supports melee unit but avoids actual combat. With a couple units played more conservatively from 12" back of objectives, the bolters make sense. 10-man is a great budget boyguard (see below), but otherwise I'd recommend just more 5s.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cpt.Danjou said:

Do you use any transports with them?

Definitely. 2x5 together in a Rhino is a great option for pushing an objective not once, but through multiple turns.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cpt.Danjou said:

Do you attach any characters?

Definitely a consideration, but only in a 10-man to maximize buffs and survivability. I love herohammer astartes builds of all stripes this edition, and they really key off 'effective units' of [character + chonky efficient battleline]. I'd probably do Master of Executions first, but a Lord or anything can kick Legionaries up a notch or even two as damage dealers in addition to scoring role.

 

On 6/28/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cpt.Danjou said:

Is there a detachment that they are extra crucial?

More like there are detachments where a 10-man with bolters and no character might make some sense for just that one devastating bolters strat lol? I think they're crucial to the army more or less and would lack frontline scoring without 2x5 minimum. Pactbound, Deceptors, Raiders and Veterans can all do really interesting things to make Legionaries a core part of your game plan though. I guess Deceptors would be hard to run effectively without making use of that part of the detachment rule, but Pactbound and Raiders both synergize incredibly well with the unit's role and capabilities.

 

In summary: take 10 in every list, 20 in most, and sometimes 30 ; )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Brother Mephiston LOD]

Appreciate the topic as I’m going to be working on a Red Corsair army shortly and was hoping to ask about heavy weapon choice.

 

i see a lot of people liking the chain cannon or las cannon and was tempted to just go with those but was hoping the extra ap from raiders might make the heavy bolter or auto cannon good. 
 

I would be running 3 or 4 squads of 5 and have a land raider 2 las destructors and a defiler for anti tank and some flame rubrics for some crowd control in the rest of the list. 

[Dr. Clock]

15 hours ago, Brother Mephiston LOD said:

heavy bolter or auto cannon

Neither bad, esp. with Pacts. HB feels like a very Red Corsairs weapon because it is possibly better (in fluff if not game) than rotor vs their nemesis loyalist astartes ; )

 

Autocannon is kinda weird because it doesn't really have enough shots, but it is dang cool, which I've heard may be a rule.

 

Heavy bolter Havocs are also frighteningly dakka, especially if you can get them plunging fire... AP-3 heavy bolters from Raiders on buildings? Seems good. Heck, put them in a rhino instead to use Ruinous Raid while 5 Legionaries run up to scrub survivors.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Brother Nathan]

fluff wise etc i love autocannons, i bought the forgeworld autocannons back in the day and made a lot of havocs. in other editions they were great. they could hurt light vehicles and infantry alike. this edition with the increase in toughness of tanks its now wounding most tanks on 5s so with an ap of 1 and only 2 shots its doing pretty poor in comparison to its bretherin. id say with the easy access to sustained/lethal the other anti infantry have overtaken them in troop killing power. and equally lascannons and missile launchers still are threats to vehicles. leaves the auto cannon sadly lost(which im very sad about... may have to count them as something else now... _

[Brother Mephiston LOD]

On 7/5/2024 at 4:50 PM, Dr. Clock said:

Heavy bolter Havocs are also frighteningly dakka, especially if you can get them plunging fire... AP-3 heavy bolters from Raiders on buildings? Seems good. Heck, put them in a rhino instead to use Ruinous Raid while 5 Legionaries run up to scrub survivors.

 

that sounds like a good set up, 300 points for that along side another rhino with 2 legionnaires could be nice especially if you stack the ap as you said. Always liked the heavy bolter it just felt kinda bad due to stats but it’s good to see the book opening up options. 
 

 

Edited July 7 by Brother Mephiston LOD