New Warhammer 40,000 Edition announced!

[phandaal]

57 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

That's kinda what I had in mind; something similar to the 4th edition custom chapter rules, if maybe a bit more balanced* would be cool.

 

*Even as the Emperor's strongest advocate for fluffy rules and a big fan of the 3.5/4th edition era, they definitely could have done more to make the drawbacks actually feel like drawbacks. I think the idea itself has legs, so to speak, but needed fine-tuning.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the system gets many tweaks over the edition once tournament players start power gaming and breaking it. Will be interesting to see where it lands between fluff and balance.

[Nephaston]

The nid ones are tasty, especially with the confirmation that these are 1DP while most of the regular detachments will be 2DP; Hide a chunk of Ambush Predators amongst Endless Swarm, supplement a Crusher Stampede woth a throng of Warriors, or plonk some extremely rude Norns in an Invasion fleet.

[DemonGSides]

31 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the system gets many tweaks over the edition once tournament players start power gaming and breaking it. Will be interesting to see where it lands between fluff and balance.

 

The detachments having costs is another lever for them to pull for balancing; if a specific combo becomes too over bearing, you make both detachments cost 2 and then it's no longer an issue.

 

It's not as nuanced as it could be (I think a scale up to 5/6 would probably be a bit better) but I think it's a good direction to go so that you won't have to nerf unit points into the ground if they are over performing in a single detachment; just make the detachment expensive and not punish those units as harshly in the points. 

[Nephaston]

17 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

The detachments having costs is another lever for them to pull for balancing; if a specific combo becomes too over bearing, you make both detachments cost 2 and then it's no longer an issue.

 

It's not as nuanced as it could be (I think a scale up to 5/6 would probably be a bit better) but I think it's a good direction to go so that you won't have to nerf unit points into the ground if they are over performing in a single detachment; just make the detachment expensive and not punish those units as harshly in the points. 

 

Knowing geedubs though they'll raise points on the offending unit, nerf their proffile, AND raise the detachment points. But maybe they'll prove me wrong.

[DemonGSides]

59 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

 

Knowing geedubs though they'll raise points on the offending unit, nerf their proffile, AND raise the detachment points. But maybe they'll prove me wrong.

 

Sure sure sure but constant negativity isn't fun nor productive so I'm choosing to be positive about it haha

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

You're taking it too literally and missing the forest for the trees.

 

I'm not talking about keywords. I'm talking about the rules bonuses you can apply to different parts of your army.

 

You can have sneaky troops, tankier tanks and more heroic heroes. Optimise. Chose whatever benefits the particular units most with theme and narrative being secondary. 

 

This is nothing new. We have seen this before. 

I hate to tell you this, but not everyone in the army is going to act the same. Hence why I look forward to a dual army using Deathwatch rules in a Librarius Conclave and another detachment of my choice. You can cry about optimizing all you want, but people have been optimizing armies since the game's existence. At least here there's more to experiment with and THAT is fun. 

[Orange Knight]

15 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

I hate to tell you this, but not everyone in the army is going to act the same. Hence why I look forward to a dual army using Deathwatch rules in a Librarius Conclave and another detachment of my choice. You can cry about optimizing all you want, but people have been optimizing armies since the game's existence. At least here there's more to experiment with and THAT is fun. 

 

Again, you've taken what I said too literally. 

 

They aren't all going to act exactly the same, no.

 

But why SHOULD they be able to do all these things simultaneously? 

Thematic rules and imposed limitations are better in my opinion. It's why people in the past were glad to see the back of "soup editions" like 7th.

 

This is just another turning of the wheel. Also, I don't trust GW to balance everything. They're adding a lot more variability and they haven't been able to balance a single detachment over the last edition, never mind multiples that can be glued together. 

 

I'd much rather they added more complexity to the core rules and more abilities to individual units to expand on the game.

Edited 7 hours ago by Orange Knight

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I miss the days before Detachments even existed. 

[Orange Knight]

3 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I miss the days before Detachments even existed. 

 

Yeah, I prefer factions and subfactions having unique rules, and the rest of the sauce coming from unit abilities.

 

I think some hobbyists that are less familiar with past editions are resistant to things being radically different. 

[Indy Techwisp]

I love how barely any of this discussion is about the new faction focuses anymore...

 

Anyway, CSM and Daemons tomorrow is interesting. It's not like there's a time crunch to get this out, so that seems indicative of something to me...

[The Lost Son]

Maybe I'm being a bit slow on the uptake here but surely the easiest way to balance all these detachments (for competitive play) would be to individually price units with each detachment instead of in a broad sweep? 

From the snippets we've seen so far i like that you could possibly tailor your force in a more meaningful way for play and still (or more?) stick to your own lore. 

[HeadlessCross]

43 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

But why SHOULD they be able to do all these things simultaneously? 

Because it's odd when I have a Librarius Conclave and there's zero rules interactions with any of my non-Librarian units besides one strat to give another unit S+1? 

 

If anything, this enables "lesser" detachments to shine. 

11 minutes ago, The Lost Son said:

Maybe I'm being a bit slow on the uptake here but surely the easiest way to balance all these detachments (for competitive play) would be to individually price units with each detachment instead of in a broad sweep? 

From the snippets we've seen so far i like that you could possibly tailor your force in a more meaningful way for play and still (or more?) stick to your own lore. 

That's basically what the detachment cost does. Opportunity cost is actually a valid balance mechanic when done correctly, and the ability to make units "cost" more with touching them can work. 

[GenerationTerrorist]

Ambush Predators looks perfect for my current Tyranid list, so may have to add some Warriors/Prime to combine it with Warrior Bioform.

[The Lost Son]

4 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

15 minutes ago, The Lost Son said:

Expand  

That's basically what the detachment cost does. Opportunity cost is actually a valid balance mechanic when done correctly, and the ability to make units "cost" more with touching them can work. 

I more meant in the sense that with a scale of 3 for what would probably (hopefully) be more of a niche unit selection there's little that can be done without calling out the offending unit(s) but my thought is that if it's ascribed individually per detachment it stops being such a group punishment for a few gamey combos. 

[Nephaston]

57 minutes ago, The Lost Son said:

I more meant in the sense that with a scale of 3 for what would probably (hopefully) be more of a niche unit selection there's little that can be done without calling out the offending unit(s) but my thought is that if it's ascribed individually per detachment it stops being such a group punishment for a few gamey combos. 

That honestly sounds like a huge amount of book-keeping on geedubs end, as you'd have to have a complete list of points per faction per detachment, and on just space marines that would be 26 pages of just points (13 detachments by 2 pages) before even accounting for the bonus chapters. They'd probably buckle under the weight.

[Mogger351]

3 hours ago, The Lost Son said:

Maybe I'm being a bit slow on the uptake here but surely the easiest way to balance all these detachments (for competitive play) would be to individually price units with each detachment instead of in a broad sweep? 

From the snippets we've seen so far i like that you could possibly tailor your force in a more meaningful way for play and still (or more?) stick to your own lore. 

Thats how you end up with intercessors with 70 points values though, being a very simplistic way of explaining the reasoning why it's a bad idea.

[Tastyfish]

1 hour ago, Nephaston said:

That honestly sounds like a huge amount of book-keeping on geedubs end, as you'd have to have a complete list of points per faction per detachment, and on just space marines that would be 26 pages of just points (13 detachments by 2 pages) before even accounting for the bonus chapters. They'd probably buckle under the weight.

 

Theoretically you could do it with a unit upgrade enhancement that gives the detachment keyword etc and can be given to X units.

 

So one core manual, but if you want to buff robots with the new "Catechism of St Rogers" so they always shoot twice, they all cost +50pts etc, but no one else has to worry about that one broken combo.

Edited 3 hours ago by Tastyfish

[jaxom]

9 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Thats how you end up with intercessors with 70 points values though, being a very simplistic way of explaining the reasoning why it's a bad idea.

I’m too dumb to follow this.

[SvenIronhand]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

I’m too dumb to follow this.

Mogger means 70 different points values for one unit.

[Kyari]

I really would love to know whether we're going to get a Combat Patrol update in 11th. They've been relatively radio silent on it aside from the offhanded mention that the 11th edition starter box armies are "about the size of a combat patrol with some extra bits".