New Multi-Part Outriders

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Haven't seen it mentioned yet, but this reveal is also a stealth confirmation that the Mario Kart is going away given that the same rumor dump predicted the end of both push-fit kits.

 

Which SHOULD mean a new Attack Bike equivalent will be dropping alongside the MPK Outriders.

[SvenIronhand]

11 minutes ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

Which SHOULD mean a new Attack Bike equivalent will be dropping alongside the MPK Outriders.

Good. Contrary to popular belief, I don't like every Primaris model, and the ATV is chief amongst them.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

 

Unless you have exact sales figures from GW, broken down by faction and by kits (which you obviously don’t ) then this is argument by assertion fallacy.

I mean are you really going to pretend it was the old Lizardman kits adding to those sales?

[NothingHere]

Primaris as a concept had nothing to do with it

 

Same thing would have happened if they just decided to upscale everything like they should have. 

[FarFromSam]

3 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

No, it isn't. Full stop. They are still producing novels about him and they are still making Primaris marines.

Alright.  Maybe in every other instance in gw's history they were financially driven except for this one that impacts their most important financial line.  You're probably right. 

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

 

Unless you have exact sales figures from GW, broken down by faction and by kits (which you obviously don’t ) then this is argument by assertion fallacy.

So is the point it counterposes which you seem to support. You can't offhandedly posit that cawlisms and primaris are reviled by a financially significant chunk of the player base.

 

That would would require a lot of customer data and breakdown of sales by veterancy etc. Which doesn't exist and is therefore, by your admission, an assertion fallacy.

 

What can be proven is that GW stonks rocket when primaris kits come out, however.

[SvenIronhand]

4 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

Alright.  Maybe in every other instance in gw's history they were financially driven except for this one that impacts their most important financial line.  You're probably right. 

None of that is rebuttal to my argument, but you do you.

[Robbienw]

30 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

I mean are you really going to pretend it was the old Lizardman kits adding to those sales?

Appeals to triviality are also a logical fallacy 

 

GW produces a huge range of things that aren’t 40k marines, and in the time since 2017 they also had a new CEO with a new strategy, vastly increased social media presence and hype, and benefitted from people drawn in over the covid era.

 

If you want to claim the sole reason for their recent growth is one singular model  line, and nothing else matters, you need strong evidence to back that up.

 

Let me know how you get on sourcing that evidence  

 

 

[FarFromSam]

8 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

None of that is rebuttal to my argument, but you do you.

You're argument is they are still making marines?  I'll let you have this one.  They are still making marines. 

 

But to get back on subject I really wish they'd bring back the attack bike+ speeder for a full squad now that they removed the primaris atv, and remade the old firstborn speeder.  I loved being able to keep to the "ten man" squad Ravenwing bike squads. 

[Robbienw]

7 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

You can't offhandedly posit that cawlisms and primaris are reviled by a financially significant chunk of the player base.

Where did I do that?

 

I’m questioning the claim that Primaris models alone are responsible for GWs success.

 

As for stocks rising when Space Marine models come out,  it’s unlikely stocks would rise solely because of that.  The market isn’t looking at every singular release, the that’s not how it works. Financial reporting and dividends will have an effect on the stock direction.  As will the general direction of the stock market and the global economy. Possibly a highly publicised event as well, such as a computer game or an Amazon series announcement.  The release of Gravis silly name unit #5 or the Space Wolf battle force will not 

 

 

[Orange Knight]

6 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

You're argument is they are still making marines?  I'll let you have this one.  They are still making marines. 

 

But to get back on subject I really wish they'd bring back the attack bike+ speeder for a full squad now that they removed the primaris atv, and remade the old firstborn speeder.  I loved being able to keep to the "ten man" squad Ravenwing bike squads. 

 

You do realise that Primaris are the most succesful Marines have ever been, and that the rumours for 11th edition is that all Firstborn units are being retired to Legends?

 

Edited June 30 by Orange Knight

[Mogger351]

2 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

Where did I do that?

 

I’m questioning the claim that Primaris models alone are responsible for GWs success.

 

As for stocks rising when Space Marine models come out,  it’s unlikely stocks would rise solely because of that.  The market isn’t looking at every singular release, the that’s not how it works. Financial reporting and dividends will have an effect on the stock direction.  As will the general direction of the stock market and the global economy. Possibly a highly publicised event as well, such as a computer game or an Amazon series announcement.  The release of Gravis silly name unit #5 or the Space Wolf battle force will not 

 

 

The problem is you're disputing someone's counterpoint to someone else claiming primaris isn't financially appealing to a majority of customers. 

 

So it's coming across that you agree with and are supporting that stance, rather than simply trying to be overly confrontationally technically correct.

[Blindhamster]

3 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

Where did I do that?

You didn't. that was @FarFromSam

 

Anyway. Hey look another thread where its full of "nuh uh, primaris are bad/good"

 

The bikes remain fine, but not exciting, just like when everyone originally commented. 

 

As @Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said, it also may be a stealth confirmation of almost all firstborn kits (bar rhino and land raider) getting axed, alongside the ATV (hurrah!) the Suppressors (hurrah) and the Turret (hurrah). 

I own a unit of each of those primaris things, but I wont be super bothered to see them go. I think I used suppressors twice and the ATV once. 

[Robbienw]

3 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

The problem is you're disputing someone's counterpoint to someone else claiming primaris isn't financially appealing to a majority of customers. 

 

So it's coming across that you agree with and are supporting that stance, rather than simply trying to be overly confrontationally technically correct.

I’m disputing the argument that they are the be all and end all of GW’s last several years of growth.

[phandaal]

Just now, Blindhamster said:

Anyway. Hey look another thread where its full of "nuh uh, primaris are bad/good"

 

People had the audacity to express a preference for bikes with wheels or bikes with grav plates. It's like The Sneeches, but way sadder.

 

Speaking of which, with the new forum guidelines, do you think it would be alright to use AI to start a Primaris vs Firstborn argument? Considering how this discussion has been allowed to continue, I guess it would be OK so long as the post was tagged.

[Orange Knight]

Just now, phandaal said:

 

People had the audacity to express a preference for bikes with wheels or bikes with grav plates. It's like The Sneeches, but way sadder.

 

This wasn't the issue at all.

 

Besides, if I was a betting man I would predict that we'll ultimately get both. 

 

In the Horus Heresy both types exist simultaneously. 

[phandaal]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

This wasn't the issue at all.

 

My bad, I am sure the real issue is way more important and worthwhile.

[Mogger351]

5 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

I’m disputing the argument that they are the be all and end all of GW’s last several years of growth.

Ok, so would you also dispute that space marines are being held back in sales due to a disenfranchised financial majority of the playerbase?

 

Do you agree that all signs are on a basic level, marines still sell well, regardless of whether they're the single biggest factor?

[Evil Eye]

The ATV bothers me quite a bit because the idea of a small scout car or tankette style vehicle, bigger and better armed than an attack bike but not a full on tank, is a cool idea. It steps on the toes of the Land Speeder a bit, perhaps, but being terrestrial instead of a skimmer has its advantages; ease of maintenance/manufacture, presenting a smaller/lower target, lower risk of being completely wrecked in the event of engine failure etc. Unfortunately the ATV is basically a sillier-looking attack bike (the main difference armament wise is that the assault cannon replaces the heavy bolter as the anti-infantry option), and boy it looks silly. I can see what they were aiming for but...no.

 

A shame, honestly; something like the Staghound or Wiesel but Marine-flavoured would have been cool. (See the spoiler for the vehicles in question.)

Spoiler

 

[Mogger351]

Just now, phandaal said:

 

My bad, I am sure the real issue is way more important and worthwhile.

To be fair it's not so much classic vs primaris as "marines dont sell people people are angry at the fluff" vs "they sell great and drive GWs profits".

 

Which, is admittedly off topic, but slightly different ground to tread for once.

[jaxom]

OUTRIDER BIKES!

 

Sorry, I felt the need to yell to make sure people knew this was topical  

Spoiler

and not -filter deployed- Primaris and Sales Argument Episode XXIV: The Search for Being More Correcter Again The Sequel.

 

They now have Weapon Options. I like that. Gives a little more punch. I’m wary because they were announced as Sergeant weapons and I’m not as keen on promoting MSU to get more special weapons.

 

I like that there aren’t special shooting weapons because I feel like the stock bike squads are not meant to be dragoons since the end of 2nd edition. I think it also leaves some room for Hopium that White Scars will get some Parthenon Shot modeled guys in a special squad to call their own.

[ZeroWolf]

8 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

You didn't. that was @FarFromSam

 

Anyway. Hey look another thread where its full of "nuh uh, primaris are bad/good"

 

The bikes remain fine, but not exciting, just like when everyone originally commented. 

 

As @Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said, it also may be a stealth confirmation of almost all firstborn kits (bar rhino and land raider) getting axed, alongside the ATV (hurrah!) the Suppressors (hurrah) and the Turret (hurrah). 

I own a unit of each of those primaris things, but I wont be super bothered to see them go. I think I used suppressors twice and the ATV once. 

I had actually had some success using the ATV, the turret though, I tried i really did. It didn't seem to have a purpose. It wasn't mobile enough to be anti-armour but also wasn't strong enough to be a deployment obstacle.

 

I have suppressors but can't say I ever used them 

 

Back to outriders though, one of my favourite youbtubers (Jay from EonsofBattle) pointed out that the outrider biker makes sense for space marines as it looks like it could be driven through walls with no impediment. Why bother with manuverability when you can just run everything over (wish the rules reflected that)

[Orange Knight]

I'm not sure if I believe that the ATV is going to be retired. The model isn't great but it isn't horrible either.

 

It adds durability and firepower to an Outrider unit, and if an Outrider Captain is going to be introduced in the near future, it could be the makings of a pretty decent, mounted unit.

 

It would be a shame to lose it. I would be more open to the model being updated.

[Focslain]

20 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

The ATV bothers me quite a bit because the idea of a small scout car or tankette style vehicle, bigger and better armed than an attack bike but not a full on tank, is a cool idea. It steps on the toes of the Land Speeder a bit, perhaps, but being terrestrial instead of a skimmer has its advantages; ease of maintenance/manufacture, presenting a smaller/lower target, lower risk of being completely wrecked in the event of engine failure etc. Unfortunately the ATV is basically a sillier-looking attack bike (the main difference armament wise is that the assault cannon replaces the heavy bolter as the anti-infantry option), and boy it looks silly. I can see what they were aiming for but...no.

 

A shame, honestly; something like the Staghound or Wiesel but Marine-flavoured would have been cool. (See the spoiler for the vehicles in question.)

  Hide contents

 

So a marine version of the Hippogriff AFV then? They are both about the same sze.

[FarFromSam]

40 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

You do realise that Primaris are the most succesful Marines have ever been, and that the rumours for 11th edition is that all Firstborn units are being retired to Legends?

 

 

Really trying not to start up a petty party.  It looks like more first born are headed to legends. Yup.