Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Robbienw]

3 hours ago, MoriyaSchism said:

I looked through the Codex leak and counted all the helmets on the shots of the new Intercessors. I counted 6 Mark X, 3 Mark VII, 1 Mark VIII and 1 beakie helmet. 6 default Mark X helmets in different styles and 7 classic style heads. That leaves 2 out of 13 that are of unknown mark at the moment. I made sure to check their bolters for the location of the magazine release to confirm they are images of the new Intercessors. 

 

 

That's cool they included a MkVIII helmet!

[Dr. Clock]

All told, I'm liking what I'm seeing. I'll be going Stormlance + Assault Bros + Tacticus Attack first off. 

 

Super chuffed that my Reiver stonks just went up 

My double Thunderstrike play is also paying off. It's more self-sufficient overall, and still helps set up moves on big stuff with 2+ or no invuln.

Hellblasters jank always felt a bit off to me, an they seem way more sensible now; I'll still take them. 

Inceptors uppy downy let's gooooooo!

Korsarro's eagle is pretty amusing, and it shouldn't be too hard to land him on a character in this day and age. Thinking Company Heroes or Assault Inter brick. It's annoying that he doesn't set up an Lt's Doctrine ability, tho i guess none of the named Captains do that either...

 

 

34 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Everyone else gets special buffs for their named guys but we don't get that treatment apparently.

Oh, and Dark Angels get the ability to have battleline bikes because apparently we can't have anything that DA don't have better.

Fair point. For me I'd almost rather have a strong 1DP that's bang-on for the overall theme than a 2DP that's a shade better than the generic bike/speeder detachment but effectively costs another 1DP. That said, my army is 2nd Founding / compliant and sporting just 2x3 Outriders + Suboden alongside 4 speeders, so I don't have too many eggs in the Mounted basket.

 

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Oh, and Dark Angels get the ability to have battleline bikes because apparently we can't have anything that DA don't have better.

Fair criticism, though I wouldn't be super surprised if they put out a 2DP White Scars detachment that does precisely this at some point. Probably right around the time they release new Ravenwing stuff and send the old to Legends?

 

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

This is gonna be the same nonsense we have now where our preferred Detachment is locked to 3dp 'cause it's getting abused in Comp by 3 divergent chapters at once except now we don't even have our own White Scars specific Detachment to use instead.

With the new detachments I expect they won't fiddle with the DP prices much any more, just focus on keeping individual strats and upgrades in line. It looks like the model they're going for is a single 3DP for the whole faction, then you might get access to up to 1x2DP based on sub-faction and their character, then just a heap of 1DPs, two-thirds of which have exclusions of some kind. This means if a combo gets out of whack they can amend or remove a single rule at a time instead of suddenly locking off your third DP choice. Hopefully. 

 

Now we just need to see what happens to the rest of the MEQ hordes. Oh, and points would help lol.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Well the codex compliant article is up and White Scars get absolutely shafted because apparently our special little Detachment is already in the codex.

 

Which is strange because I can see the Imperial Fists at the top of the Detachment.

 

Everyone else gets special buffs for their named guys but we don't get that treatment apparently.

Oh, and Dark Angels get the ability to have battleline bikes because apparently we can't have anything that DA don't have better.

 

This is gonna be the same nonsense we have now where our preferred Detachment is locked to 3dp 'cause it's getting abused in Comp by 3 divergent chapters at once except now we don't even have our own White Scars specific Detachment to use instead.

It's very unlikely they don't get a detachment later, but do keep in mind WarCom doesn't always have accurate info, nor are they passed along all bits of information (after all, today's article had basically no information outside Salamanders and Raven Guard). They might have one Day 1 for all we know. 

 

Still annoying not to be given anything Day 1 though. 

 

And agreed on Dark Angels, and this is why GW treating just a couple Chapters as special snowflakes is inconsistent and makes for terrible rules writing. 

Edited 14 hours ago by HeadlessCross

[Emperor Ming]

Isnt this like scale and power creep worse than the original votann release?

 

[jaxom]

25 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Isnt this like scale and power creep worse than the original votann release?

 

I’m not really sure about how much power creep there is until I get an army on the table. Units have gotten more powerful, however there’s less ways to stack combinations of stratagems and character-unit buffs. Plus individual stratagems are more targeted in effect and less powerful.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's very unlikely they don't get a detachment later, but do keep in mind WarCom doesn't always have accurate info, nor are they passed along all bits of information

 

Turns out you were right.

WarComm forgot to check their emails:

[HeadlessCross]

5 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Turns out you were right.

WarComm forgot to check their emails:

I'd like to think I know a thing or two about a thing or two. 

6 hours ago, jaxom said:

I’m not really sure about how much power creep there is until I get an army on the table. Units have gotten more powerful, however there’s less ways to stack combinations of stratagems and character-unit buffs. Plus individual stratagems are more targeted in effect and less powerful.

Based on both codices we have or about to have, the method seems to be stronger datasheets and weaker detachments. Interesting way of writing, but we'll see how long that lasts. 

 

6 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Isnt this like scale and power creep worse than the original votann release?

 

If we ever get anything as absurd as the Land Fortress Magna Cannon on release, I'll be one of the first to complain about it. 

[DemonGSides]

2 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

I'd like to think I know a thing or two about a thing or two. 

Based on both codices we have or about to have, the method seems to be stronger datasheets and weaker detachments. Interesting way of writing, but we'll see how long that lasts. 

 

Yeah never trust that WHC got it right the first time. Plenty of examples of them being wrong so just always take what they say with a grain of salt.

[01RTB01]

Hopefully the marine and ork codexes set the tone for the edition but that the power increase isn't a leap. It'll be interesting to play orks vs marines to see how it goes. Marines not relying on oath will be a novelty.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

Isnt this like scale and power creep worse than the original votann release?

 

Maybe not as game destroyingly broken as votann but in terms of shifting the landscape of the game, yes probably.

 

I'd watch the 8 man victrix + new guy + calgar unit though for a dirty combo as a yard stick. Victrix just generally look good, as ever tbh.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

Isnt this like scale and power creep worse than the original votann release?

 

I don't think the increased number of attacks is going to lead to a significant increase in lethality. OOM is gone, cover now provides -1 to Hit and the codex has lost several sources of rerolls (e.g. Ballistus strike among others). My hunch is that many of the buffs will work out neutral.

 

Also a lot of the buffs have been focussed on units that have not been popular in 10th. Bladeguard Vets for instance saw no improvements because they are already good. Some popular choices like the Ballistus and Lancer saw mild nerfs. Flamestorm Aggressors look actually good now and are on par with the Boltstorm variety (nice for my ETB squad).

 

So overall it looks like a lot of levelling has taken place. The strongest buffs seem focussed on the weakest units so I am not convinced Marines will be meta-breaking. Hopefully they will go up a bit as they are currently flirting with the 45% win-rate threshold so a little buff would not go amiss. But a lot of the boosts seem to focus on bringing under-performing units up to the level of the others.

[jaxom]

13 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I'd watch the 8 man victrix + new guy + calgar unit though for a dirty combo as a yard stick. Victrix just generally look good, as ever tbh.

I also expect this to be a brutal tournament unit. The big question for me is how much it will cost, and so what else can fit in the army.

[Orange Knight]

30 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

Hopefully the marine and ork codexes set the tone for the edition but that the power increase isn't a leap. It'll be interesting to play orks vs marines to see how it goes. Marines not relying on oath will be a novelty.

 

I'm ok with the 11th edition codex books leaving 10th edition books in the dust... as long as they are balanced well against other 11th edition releases.

 

As I said earlier - I don't think the new books should be held back by the status quo or standards of 10th.

 

Right now it's far too early to even make educated guesses. It took a few weeks to figure Orks out, but in the end they turned out to be very powerful. Marines seem more straightforward in what makes them strong, but at the same time we're all very familiar with the faction.

 

We need to take stock after a few other armies have been updated as well.

[irlLordy]

I don't think 8 man Victrix will be a thing, its just worded that way to cover the existing possible model combinations in the unit. The MFN will probably just specify you can take 3 and 6 man units.

[mel_danes]

11 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Alongside that, why are heavy bolters magically S6 when an eradicator picks one up?

 

It appears that the only other S6 Heavy Bolter is the Company Heros datasheet. But it's listed as Mastercrafted.

The Sternguard, Hvy Int, Scouts etc all have S5.

It is weird.

[jaxom]

5 minutes ago, mel_danes said:

 

It appears that the only other S6 Heavy Bolter is the Company Heros datasheet. But it's listed as Mastercrafted.

The Sternguard, Hvy Int, Scouts etc all have S5.

It is weird.

Maybe because Gravis-version? Dunno, but I’m not complaining.

[phandaal]

  

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

If we ever get anything as absurd as the Land Fortress Magna Cannon on release, I'll be one of the first to complain about it. 

 

Eldar 10th Edition Index

[DemonGSides]

10 minutes ago, phandaal said:

  Eldar 10th Edition Index

 

Two different things can suck, and both of those did.  I straight up stopped playing with one buddy who was one of those "I don't see what's wrong with my army" eldar players from that time period.  He switched to Wolf Jail... in hindsight he might just be an :cuss: lol

[SvenIronhand]

15 minutes ago, phandaal said:

  

 

Eldar 10th Edition Index

In my opinion, the Strands of Fate mechanic is no different than the Sisters Miracle Dice mechanic and the only stand-out problem was the Wraithknights. Stuff like Aspects, Guardians, et cetera — these were pretty weak for the Eldar at the time. 

[HeadlessCross]

13 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

In my opinion, the Strands of Fate mechanic is no different than the Sisters Miracle Dice mechanic and the only stand-out problem was the Wraithknights. Stuff like Aspects, Guardians, et cetera — these were pretty weak for the Eldar at the time. 

I promise you that the dice mechanic was NOT the only problem with the Eldar Index. 

[phandaal]

3 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Two different things can suck, and both of those did.

 

They were quite different, yeah.

 

Pre-launch Votann could use Uthar plus judgment tokens to guarantee a single Magna-rail shot's splash damage effect. That was nerfed within days, before most people with the launch box had even finished assembling their minis. (Remember - Votann didn't exist as an army before people got that box.)

 

Launch 10th Eldar had a faction-wide pool of preset dice that meant every key weapon was basically a Magna-rail with a built-in Judgmental Uthar attachment, and it went live for weeks. Even after its first nerf, Eldar dominated with something like a 70% win rate for months.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I'm ok with the 11th edition codex books leaving 10th edition books in the dust... as long as they are balanced well against other 11th edition releases.

 

As I said earlier - I don't think the new books should be held back by the status quo or standards of 10th.

 

Right now it's far too early to even make educated guesses. It took a few weeks to figure Orks out, but in the end they turned out to be very powerful. Marines seem more straightforward in what makes them strong, but at the same time we're all very familiar with the faction.

 

We need to take stock after a few other armies have been updated as well.

Please reword this, it kinda reads as willingly splitting the game into haves and have-nots with a bit of "well I got mine".

 

[DemonGSides]

31 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

They were quite different, yeah.

 

Pre-launch Votann could use Uthar plus judgment tokens to guarantee a single Magna-rail shot's splash damage effect. That was nerfed within days, before most people with the launch box had even finished assembling their minis. (Remember - Votann didn't exist as an army before people got that box.)

 

Launch 10th Eldar had a faction-wide pool of preset dice that meant every key weapon was basically a Magna-rail with a built-in Judgmental Uthar attachment, and it went live for weeks. Even after its first nerf, Eldar dominated with something like a 70% win rate for months.

 

For sure; if GW was moving as deftly as they are now with changes back then, Eldar would've been nerfed way sooner.  I think it was a good choice of theirs to build in a few updates on a monthly basis at the start of this edition, and then space them out more as time goes on so people have stuff to get ahold of.  Kinda crazy that some people seem to prefer the idea of no changes ever, though; imagine if they stayed the same until their Codex dropped.  Woooooof.

 

That they were so quick with Votaan was an outlier, but also probably a good one.

Edited 10 hours ago by DemonGSides

[phandaal]

9 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

That they were so quick with Votaan was an outlier, but also probably a good one.

 

I agree with this 100%. It actually annoyed me as someone who was very excited about the army to see them being given something so broken (still does, obviously ). If people had actually had to play against that version of Votann instead of just imagining that they did, it would have been 10x worse.

[Ahzek451]

24 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 Kinda crazy that some people seem to prefer the idea of no changes ever, though; imagine if they stayed the same until their Codex dropped.  Woooooof.

 

I'm not aware of anyone that wants zero changes(maybe out of thousands there are 2 hiding in a basement somewhere), I would be curious who they might be, but I think the bulk of those related to what you are referring to just want a more polished and complete product up front with minimal changes for the sake of not chasing endless updates. I think its a bit odd how many people are still ok with the current drip-feed codex model. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Ahzek451