Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I see we're playing the "Do Cult Marines have their own stuff" game again.

 

I posted the answer to this earlier in the thread iirc.

 

 

There's the previous post.

Cult Marines have barely anything unique (except DG).

Respectfully, I'm not playing any games and as an ec player I love the book and the range. I genuinely love the fact it's a stripped back list of options. For orks the "analysis paralysis" is heavy as there's so much choice. I don't think I've ever grumbled about the ec range.

 

I was simply stating that although the god legions share some units, their rules are different. I understand there's a lot of work to do for anyone that isn't death guard on the unique minis front. 

 

The only thing I'd like to see is a toned down defiler so that I could take two without breaking the points bank. The models are stunning and being largely restricted to one I find sad. Throw in the fact it was the only fire support really available for EC pushed us back into one playstyle really which is punching things. I've said before I'd take a weaker defiler with lower points but that's not where we're at. 

[MoriyaSchism]

11 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

its really funny, ive been a blood angel player since these were death company:

 

And honestly, I much prefer the level of bling on them to the set we got in 5th edition. They look like blood angel space marines that painted their armour black and painted saltires onto it. 

Whereas the 5th edition ones looked like christmas trees where apparently someone etched the saltires into the armour instead. 

 

 

I quite liked the 3rd edition ones too:

Though again, sculpted saltires annoyed me.

Don't get me wrong, I bought multiple death company kits, but I always had to mix them with tactical or assault squad parts to tone them down dramatically, and never used sculpted saltires if I could avoid it.

 

IMO the blood angel tactical squad was much better for blood angel designs than the death company kit (though personally, even these I tended to mix with regular tactical squad):

 

But the tabards were bad (too wide) and the muscle armour details on the sergeant never sat well with me as the point was always it was artificer armour (same reason 10th edition blood angel captain having separate rules and NOT being a 2+ save annoyed me).

Anyway, long story short, whilst I appreciate the view some have of "how the mighty have fallen" comparing 5th edition DC to the upgrade kit, and agree with the general sentiment, I think the actual fall was losing a more subdued but undeniably distinctive kit like the blood angel tactical squad, NOT the death company squad. 

I'd personally like to see a "blood angel intercessor squad" one day with a slightly more aggressive mix of poses than the base ones and slightly more subtle bling and details like these had than a return to the 5th edition DC kit. 

 

While I didn't enjoy the legs on the plastic Death Company kit I thought the kit itself was quite nice for the variety of parts it contained. The Blood Angel detailed bolters, a set of different chestplates including the old version of Maximus armour, 5 jump packs and a panoply of Assault Squad weapons. That was the big part of what I enjoyed about the older chapter specific and veteran kits, I never built one as is because they would end up looking really busy. I would always disperse the parts across my army and keep the more veteran or specialist parts for building more subdued versions of those specific squads. Sadly I only have two of the old 3rd Edition Death Company models left from my old collection. 

[Crimson Longinus]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I disagree. 

 

There are a lot of advantages to limiting units on a chapter by chapter basis. Everything from theming and lore all the way to game balance and reduction of bloat. Of course, it has to be done in a controlled and sensible matter.

 

In my opinion, there should be no circumstance in which Black Templars should be able to run Librarians. This should extend all the way to the unit being removed from their codex.

 

By the same token, why would Blood Angels have access to Apothecaries? They famously use Sanguinary Priests, and the model now exists (and if rumours are to be believed, Corbulo is also coming back in a future update). Having access to both is counter to their lore, and they feel thematically redundant.

 

And finally, we come to Space Wolves.

This chapter has more model and rule support than any other. They have access to bespoke Battleline options such as Grey Hunters AND Blood Claws - these are thematic alternatives to Intercessors and Assault Intercessors. I think that Space Wolves should lose access to the Codex variants of these units now that their range has been expanded, and it actually erodes their thematic identity to keep them.

(Intercessors and Bladeguard in particular don't feel like Space Wolf units, nor do the generic Terminator variants when they have the Wolf Guard)

 

The same extends to redundant Terminator, Librarian and other units options across all the chapters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The handful of named chapters with official lore are just a small fraction of chapters in existence. Allowing people mx and match stuff allows representing myriad of variant chapters which might have combinations of units these couple of official chapters don't. And if people want to stick to the official lore of the official chapters, they still can.

 

I still remember when Emperor's Champion was something a lot of chapters had (Imperial Fist successors in particular,) and not just for Black Templars had. I'd like to be able to represent that fluff, and have an Emperor's Champion for my chapter even if they do not have Crusader squads nor shun Librarians.

[Blindhamster]

6 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I disagree. 

 

There are a lot of advantages to limiting units on a chapter by chapter basis. Everything from theming and lore all the way to game balance and reduction of bloat. Of course, it has to be done in a controlled and sensible matter.

 

In my opinion, there should be no circumstance in which Black Templars should be able to run Librarians. This should extend all the way to the unit being removed from their codex.

 

By the same token, why would Blood Angels have access to Apothecaries? They famously use Sanguinary Priests, and the model now exists (and if rumours are to be believed, Corbulo is also coming back in a future update). Having access to both is counter to their lore, and they feel thematically redundant.

 

And finally, we come to Space Wolves.

This chapter has more model and rule support than any other. They have access to bespoke Battleline options such as Grey Hunters AND Blood Claws - these are thematic alternatives to Intercessors and Assault Intercessors. I think that Space Wolves should lose access to the Codex variants of these units now that their range has been expanded, and it actually erodes their thematic identity to keep them.

(Intercessors and Bladeguard in particular don't feel like Space Wolf units, nor do the generic Terminator variants when they have the Wolf Guard)

 

The same extends to redundant Terminator, Librarian and other units options across all the chapters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

what should ultramarines lose? They have 8 unique things, including a primarch, two units and a bunch of unique characters (one being dropped in ventris and one being added in another champion guy, not including the black library guy)

[Orange Knight]

45 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

 

what should ultramarines lose? They have 8 unique things, including a primarch, two units and a bunch of unique characters (one being dropped in ventris and one being added in another champion guy, not including the black library guy)

 

Blood Angels have 12 unique things, including their own generic Captain with unique wargear. 

 

Dark Angels have 17, Space Wolves have 22+

 

I'm not suggesting that chapters should lose options that aren't redundant or in contradiction with the lore.

Nor am I suggesting that they should lose their characters.

I'm arguing against unit redundancy that also contradicts the lore directly. 

 

For example,In the official lore, all Space Wolf Terminators are Wolf Guard. They don't field codex compliant "Tactical Terminators."

 

Blood Angels have Sanguinary Priests because of their unique process of creating Astartes, as well as their spiritual duties within the Chapter. They don't have Apothecaries.

 

Unless we don't think the armies should reflect the lore? I've also outlined other advantages such as less bloat, more balance, stronger thematic identity, etc

 

Edited 21 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Blood Angels have 12 unique things, including their own generic Captain with unique wargear. 

I’ll focus on this as a blood angels player

 

the captain is a captain with 1 new pistol option and lacking almost every other option. What do you suggest there? Blood angels lose storm shield and sword version? Blood angels lose bolt rifle version? Something else?

 

the rest :

dante - Calgar 

mephiston - tigarius

astorath - Titus

lemartes - cato 

sanguinor - guilliman I guess

sanguinary priest - ventris or the new guy

sanguinary guard  - victrix guard equivalent

baal predator - staying for now, probably goes when actual codex drops, realistically 

the boys in blue have the wardens of ultramar and have two sneaky characters hidden in the victrix guard (chapter champion and chapter ancient - incidentally stuff blood angels once had lol)

 

 

death company with bolt rifles

death company on foot

death company with jump packs

death company captain

death company captain with jump pack

 

Badly implemented rules, done to pad out a supplement haemorrhaging units the faction had had previously. None of them even have actual models. But regardless, what precisely are they meant to replace from the core codex? They aren’t vererans and blood angels still absolutely have those. 

 

So, what do blood angels lose? And what do ultramarines lose? Considering if you are from codex space marines and not an ultramarine you have 6 fewer things (I’d argue more than that due to black library character and the variant victrix unit)

[Orange Knight]

I'm not saying Blood Angels shouldn't get more models and more support, or even that GW didn't under-deliver with some of their models.

 

I have no issue with a new Death Company kit (I hope they get one), or unique Dreadnought upgrades, etc etc

 

I'm saying that having access to redundant units that aren't actually a part of the Chapter in it's defining lore is something that can and should be rectified, IF it can be done well.

Otherwise it makes no sense that Black Templars can't take Librarians.

Edited 21 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm not saying Blood Angels shouldn't get more models and more support, or even that GW didn't under-deliver with some of their models.

 

I have no issue with a new Death Company kit (I hope they get one), or unique Dreadnought upgrades, etc etc

 

I'm saying that having access to redundant units that aren't actually a part of the Chapter in it's defining lore is something that can and should be rectified, IF it can be done well.

Otherwise it makes no sense that Black Templars can't take Librarians.

so which units, precisely, do the blood angels not apparently have?

 

keeping in mind their lore has always been codex adherent except that they have additional structures to manage the flaws.

 

Literally the only thing I think is justifiable based on that, is apothecary as they have the sanguinary priesthood specifically instead.

 

but you have made comments repeatedly. I’m asking you to be explicit.

 

do the same for dark angels too please.

[Orange Knight]

Only the bog standard Apothecary. They have Sanguinary Priests in their place.

 

But keep in mind that I also feel the chapter needs a few more releases. I mentioned that I would like to see a proper Death Company kit, I also think they need a better upgrade sprue with some additional weapon options for vehicles - eg, a Melta of some kind that can attach to the fist of a Redemptor in place of the Onslaught, or a Flame turret for the Gladiator, something along these lines.

 

GW gave the Black Templars a unique Multi Melta upgrade for all vehicles. It makes their Impulsor strictly better than any other Chapter's, but I have no issue with this because it's an additional distinction for the chapter. I want to see more of this.

Edited 21 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

It’s funny, basic weapon options like that IMO would have just been better for everyone.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

Probably, I wouldn't be against extra options across the board.

 

But I also think that the range and flexibility is already there. I would prefer if GW focused on fleshing out all the chapters.

[Mogger351]

6 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

so which units, precisely, do the blood angels not apparently have?

 

keeping in mind their lore has always been codex adherent except that they have additional structures to manage the flaws.

 

Literally the only thing I think is justifiable based on that, is apothecary as they have the sanguinary priesthood specifically instead.

 

but you have made comments repeatedly. I’m asking you to be explicit.

 

do the same for dark angels too please.

 

You highlight the issue perfectly, in the 87 datasheets of the space marine codex and the 12 extra extra of the blood angels book, there are no overlapping units? No units that could serve to be replaced or streamlined?

 

This is largely irrelevant as it's too historically ingrained now, but they're just space marines, with more stuff than other space marines.

 

Do alaitoc, or evil sunz, or mephrit, or any other myriad fluff subtraction get a minimum of 12 datasheets and extra detachments? No.

 

That said, we also have:

- chainsword guys on foot

- chainsword guys on foot but angry

- chainsword guys with jump pack

- chainsword guys with jump pack but angry

- guys on foot with fancy swords

- jump pack guys with fancy swords

- gold jump pack guys with fancy swords

 

There's a lot of overlapping design space in the marine force as it is and it might behoove GW to lean into their stereotypical niches a bit more and prune back whilst offering alternatives to fit the theme.

[Karhedron]

6 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Only the bog standard Apothecary. They have Sanguinary Priests in their place.

 

No, Blood Angels have regular Apothecaries too (sometimes called Sanguinary Adepts in previous editions). Because of the flaw, Apothecaries are immensely important to the Blood Angels. Also, the Chaplains devote much of their time to managing the Black Rage and Red Thirst. 

 

This has created the need on the Blood Angels for a senior rank of Apothecaries who are part Medicae, part spiritual leader. Sanguinary Priests don't replace Apothecaries, they are senior Apothecaries with additional duties within the Chapter cult.

[MoriyaSchism]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

No, Blood Angels have regular Apothecaries too (sometimes called Sanguinary Adepts in previous editions). Because of the flaw, Apothecaries are immensely important to the Blood Angels. Also, the Chaplains devote much of their time to managing the Black Rage and Red Thirst. 

 

This has created the need on the Blood Angels for a senior rank of Apothecaries who are part Medicae, part spiritual leader. Sanguinary Priests don't replace Apothecaries, they are senior Apothecaries with additional duties within the Chapter cult.

The army list entry for the Honour Guard listed a Sanguinary Novitiate in place of an Apothecary and he came equipped with a blood chalice by default. There was no Apothecary entry in the Elites section of the 5th edition codex, only Corbulo and a generic Sanguinary Priest. I can't remember any mention of Sanguinary Adepts. In 7th edition the Sanguinary Novitiate lost the blood chalice option and came equipped with a narthecium by default. 

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

 

You highlight the issue perfectly, in the 87 datasheets of the space marine codex and the 12 extra extra of the blood angels book, there are no overlapping units? No units that could serve to be replaced or streamlined?

 

This is largely irrelevant as it's too historically ingrained now, but they're just space marines, with more stuff than other space marines.

 

Do alaitoc, or evil sunz, or mephrit, or any other myriad fluff subtraction get a minimum of 12 datasheets and extra detachments? No.

 

That said, we also have:

- chainsword guys on foot

- chainsword guys on foot but angry

- chainsword guys with jump pack

- chainsword guys with jump pack but angry

- guys on foot with fancy swords

- jump pack guys with fancy swords

- gold jump pack guys with fancy swords

 

There's a lot of overlapping design space in the marine force as it is and it might behoove GW to lean into their stereotypical niches a bit more and prune back whilst offering alternatives to fit the theme.

Yes the issue is that they can’t get rid of assault intercessors, assault intercessors with jump packs or intercessors because death company don’t replace them in the lore. 
 

now, as a lot of people comment regularly, it would probably have been easier/better if death company were simply one unit, with option to take jump packs increasing the cost (similar to how storm shields on terminators work)

 

Death company, if designed properly should be a suicide unit, intended to throw at an enemy, do a lot of damage and expected to die. That’s their lore and it should be their mechanics, a distinction from the other units listed.

 

sanguinary guard are a unique bodyguard unit, and actually have an equivalent in a lot of the chapters. My view there is codex marines should have a slightly more flexible option in their book which isn’t allowed for blood angels, dark angels, space wolves or ultramarines. They aren’t analogous or intended to be analogous with vanguard or bladeguard.

5 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

The army list entry for the Honour Guard listed a Sanguinary Novitiate in place of an Apothecary and he came equipped with a blood chalice by default. There was no Apothecary entry in the Elites section of the 5th edition codex, only Corbulo and a generic Sanguinary Priest. I can't remember any mention of Sanguinary Adepts. In 7th edition the Sanguinary Novitiate lost the blood chalice option and came equipped with a narthecium by default. 

Mostly true, except you go back further and they had nartheciums. The novitiate model even specifically had a narthecium.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

No, Blood Angels have regular Apothecaries too (sometimes called Sanguinary Adepts in previous editions). Because of the flaw, Apothecaries are immensely important to the Blood Angels. Also, the Chaplains devote much of their time to managing the Black Rage and Red Thirst. 

 

This has created the need on the Blood Angels for a senior rank of Apothecaries who are part Medicae, part spiritual leader. Sanguinary Priests don't replace Apothecaries, they are senior Apothecaries with additional duties within the Chapter cult.

 

I don't understand your point. BA don't have regular Apothaceries, there's noone called "apothacery" in the chapter organisation. Sanguinary priesthood fully replaces Apothacerion and Sanguinary Adepts/Novitates are priests in training. They are also below the regular apothacery, they are more equivalent of apothacaries in training like Helix Adepts. This is why neither appear on chapter organisation charts, while sanguinary priests and apothaceries do. The number of priests given in 5th ed, over two dozen, also corresponds to the number of apothaceries in a regular chapter - at least one per company + several more extra. So yes, priests replace apothaceries, while Sanguinary Adepts/Novitates don't. 

[MoriyaSchism]

34 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Yes the issue is that they can’t get rid of assault intercessors, assault intercessors with jump packs or intercessors because death company don’t replace them in the lore. 
 

now, as a lot of people comment regularly, it would probably have been easier/better if death company were simply one unit, with option to take jump packs increasing the cost (similar to how storm shields on terminators work)

 

Death company, if designed properly should be a suicide unit, intended to throw at an enemy, do a lot of damage and expected to die. That’s their lore and it should be their mechanics, a distinction from the other units listed.

 

sanguinary guard are a unique bodyguard unit, and actually have an equivalent in a lot of the chapters. My view there is codex marines should have a slightly more flexible option in their book which isn’t allowed for blood angels, dark angels, space wolves or ultramarines. They aren’t analogous or intended to be analogous with vanguard or bladeguard.

Mostly true, except you go back further and they had nartheciums. The novitiate model even specifically had a narthecium.

That's right for 2nd. I don't I have access to any of the 3rd edition Blood Angels stuff. I do have the 4th edition White Dwarf army list which is missing a generic Sanguinary Priest option separate from the Honour Guard and it lists the narthecium as an exanguinator. 

[Orange Knight]

The removal of an Apothecary from the Blood Angel army selections shouldn't cause upset if done correctly. 

 

1: Sanguinary Priests should fulfil the same role and provide the same bonuses + something extra that is thematic to them. They also have unique wargear - a melee combat weapon instead of the pistol.

 

2: It would more accurately reflect the lore of the Chapter on the tabletop.

 

And as I mentioned prior (with the Space Wolf example), this needs to be carried further to the other chapters that have lore themed alternatives. For example, Black Templars never used standard Tactical Squads in the lore. I haven't read their recent codex books, but I imagine you wouldn't find a codex compliant Intercessor Squad in the army when they have their Crusader alternatives? (I actually don't know in the case of BT)

 

My question to everyone is: Do we actually want the armies to be the lore accurate and thematic or do we just want to have special, "+1" favoured Marines?

And to be clear, what I'm suggesting has to be done WELL for it to be worthwhile. I'm not asking for one chapter to be worse than another. The unique unit options should be of a similar power level whilst playing into the strengths and themes of their faction.

 

With 11th edition we're seeing some serious cutting of units, and we might even see further consolidation when the codex drops (I hope all the various Phobos Lts and Tacticus Captains get consolidated)

On top of this GW is doing the biggest stat readjustment of this faction that I've seen in the last 20+ years.

This is an opportunity for them to do some thematic refocusing and army clean up. Whether they do so or not is obviously not in our control. I'm just voicing my position of wanting the tabletop and lore to align more closely, whilst doubling down on Chapter Identity. If they also intend for these chapters to have their own codex, it's even more reason to make them as distinctive and unique as possible.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Orange Knight

[Blindhamster]

I’d have no issue with dropping apothecaries for blood angels for what it’s worth.

 

My main issue with going back to full separate codexes for the chapters is that it’s duplicating a lot of datasheets and GW notoriously suck at keeping stuff aligned.

 

all the above said, I have been thinking and I wonder if blood angels assault intercessors and intercessors with jump packs may be more expensive than other chapters as the options in the upgrade sprue may be getting added to them.

[Orange Knight]

I only decided to bring all this up because GW was hinting at full codex released for the "divergent" chapters.

 

It would be weird if we just went back to supplements after what they were saying in the recent previews, but again, we can't be certain.

[Mmmmm Napalm]

(please disregard)

Edited 9 hours ago by Mmmmm Napalm

[Mogger351]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Yes the issue is that they can’t get rid of assault intercessors, assault intercessors with jump packs or intercessors because death company don’t replace them in the lore. 
 

now, as a lot of people comment regularly, it would probably have been easier/better if death company were simply one unit, with option to take jump packs increasing the cost (similar to how storm shields on terminators work)

 

Death company, if designed properly should be a suicide unit, intended to throw at an enemy, do a lot of damage and expected to die. That’s their lore and it should be their mechanics, a distinction from the other units listed.

 

sanguinary guard are a unique bodyguard unit, and actually have an equivalent in a lot of the chapters. My view there is codex marines should have a slightly more flexible option in their book which isn’t allowed for blood angels, dark angels, space wolves or ultramarines. They aren’t analogous or intended to be analogous with vanguard or bladeguard.

Mostly true, except you go back further and they had nartheciums. The novitiate model even specifically had a narthecium.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote in terms of the fluff, I was just highlighting that in terms of unit design space they're often not that distinct.

 

A vanguard vet and a sang guard divorced from the fluff are pretty similar in concept - elite melee jump guy with power weapon.

 

In the event they want to push the flanderising of the chapters, blood angels 2 big things are jump packs and death company. Don't have me I'm just spitballing this with the detached mind of a GW dude told to "make them unique".

 

They could have assault intercessors replaced with death company arguably. Or maybe death company could simply be a bolt-on rule for battleline? Make jump and foot assault intercessors battle line.

 

Make a note that their overcharged engines only work for tracked vehicles, hence keep the baal, rhino, land raider, thats it for the motor pool + speeders. If it times with the refresh of the rhino, maybe it could be a new kit with a couple options

 

Trim out some of the gravis/phobos units to remove the slower ploddier elements to reinforce the fast assault theme maybe.

 

Arguably van vets could go as above?

 

Again, just applying the chaos legion thought process to loyalists.

[redmapa]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I only decided to bring all this up because GW was hinting at full codex released for the "divergent" chapters.

 

It would be weird if we just went back to supplements after what they were saying in the recent previews, but again, we can't be certain.

 

iirc from the QnA video they did a while ago they explicitly said that if you wanted to make a list with JUST unique units from your chapter then yeah you could just use the upcoming PDFs but if you wanted to have generic units then you needed to buy the vanilla book, I think WarCom is just muddying the waters with their language and the divergent chapters will just be supplements just as they are now, I trust the guys on the video more than WarCom.

 

Now how that will interact with detachments and doctrines we will see, if the non codex chapters all have their own army rule like BT than Im also expecting them to have more detachments than they have now to make up for not being able to use 4-5 detachments that focus on an army rule that they wont have access to.

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

A vanguard vet and a sang guard divorced from the fluff are pretty similar in concept - elite melee jump guy with power weapon.

sorry, but you’re wrong as the unit design is different. One is specifically a bodyguard unit with rules relating to that, the other is intended as purely a damage dealer. They don’t always get the rules quite right for that, but it’s their intended purpose from a design perspective.

 

i won’t debate it further, you’re allowed your opinions, but I think we fundamentally disagree here

[Northern Walker]

14 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

For example,In the official lore, all Space Wolf Terminators are Wolf Guard. They don't field codex compliant "Tactical Terminators."

 

This is another one where GW's kit design and balancing is a problem, while all SW terminators are WG, they do use the same weapon loadouts as other chapters from time to time, but because of kits you now have 3 datasheets to represent that