The AM, Mars, the Void Dragon, and Necrons

[Pyriel]

walking behind someone and pulling their hair is just as annoying as walking up to them and slapping them in the face. even if you slip the insults in in the middle of a well put arguement, they are still that. insults.

You sound like I was the one starting it...

 

I showed restraint and tried to be logical only but after some insults and the gloating I had enough and even then the oh so evil reply I made was restrained.

So the problem being?

 

I do respect you for being concerned about Text references, but us Necron Players tend to do an awful lot of Theorizing due to the small amount of background we have, also this is what the point of this thread is, to come up with Theories. I do think you're a bit juvnelile yourself for a) Refusing to accept anything other than what is written might be possible and b.) You seem to complain about manners when you don't really use them yourself

There is a differance between theories. The most anchored by the fluff usually wins.

Then if you present a thory based on personal beliefs and I question that giving fluff hints of the opposite I get insulted by you until I myself retort back with the same means.

 

You have to understand that a theory has to and will be questioned and if it is questioned with validity you have to defend it with something substantial or it gets shoveled into the ideas-only-drawer.

This is nothing to do with refusing to accept theories (I love theories and have bucketloads of them myself) but if tehre is fluff pointing towards theory A and not theory B then I have to accept that theory B is the least valid of them no matter how much I happen to prefere it.

This is something you are yet to understand.

 

About manners...look at your own manners and my replies to them and see who started throwing gloating insults around in the first place. You cannot be angry at me for replying in the same manners as you used against me.

Change and so will I.

 

when we actually give you a piece of Background, the Hrangore' bit, you just blast it out of the water even though it's what you want! who says Abbadon can't speak deamon!

That is right, I say he cannot speak deamon since I have fluff backing this.

This means that your theory (albeit backed by fluff) is counterclaimed by my that is also backed by fluff.

The sum of this is that neither theory is right an dboth are meaning that the point is moot until more fluff proof comes along.

Ergo: You cannot claim abbaddon actuly commanding and suceeding in doing so, a deamon.

 

I also politely answered your question to how many worlds with Necron tombs on by directing you to the GW starmap, the last bit of the post was just a bit of light hearted humour

It was not polite. I was polite asking you to please do it.

You ansererd by gloating and being sarcastic in my face...and now you call it humor.

How about me calling my insult towards you as no insult at all, just some light hearted humor?

This was what ticked me off.

 

i just think you rely on it far to much, closing your mind to other points of view. With Mechanicus I brought him in because I know my knowledge of Necron background is as good as other peoples.

And this is your problem in a nutshell.

I know a great deal of fluff, necron too albeit not with exact page quotes (no differance really).

But as you know your necron fluff and very little of outside fluff you are the undergod as much fluff contradicts your necron fluff or adds to it or substracts from it but you do not know that since you specialize in necron only.

It is the ability to have the WHOLE picture that makes you good at theories and rebuking theories.

 

Se further down as I answer Mechanicus abbaddon-talks-to-deam post.

 

(Oh and the reason I didn't complain about Deamonic D's spelling because he's already been talked to about it by the CSG admin team)

...and I am not a mindreader so how should I know.

To me it sounded wrong.

 

 

Then someone unites the barbarians of Terra, and comes to Mars with technical secrets? It would certainly be a boost to morale if they believed that their messiah had arrived - and they may well have needed it, considering the circumstances.

Think about this then...

The emperor was well knows (hard fluff) for his foreboding abilities. If he saw the coming doom he would be damned careful about saving all knowledge that he could in some of his private and well hidden places.

Afterwards the Man comes out from hiding with the golden treasure of technology ready at ahnd to save the day, unite a tech crazed mechanicus and start with the "real" project of saving humanity.

How very convinient huh?

 

I'm not sure I would agree he is omniscient

Of course he is not, I wasn´t being to the letter. Is he was he wouldn´t be sitting on the throne:)

 

But his greatest misstakes in precognition also came from direct or indirect involvement of the chaos powers.

1 He failed to see the path horus would take. Why horus had been tainted by chaos in a time-travel loop (HH books) from even before his birth.

2 He failed to see Magnus trechery but then magnus used a very powerful chaos spell that was conviniently enough designed with breeching the emperors psychic defenses.

 

once been living tissue. Was it possible that some sort of corruption had been passed to him by the Nightbringer's weapon and had infected his body with this terrible sickness?"

A theior only. "Was it possible" is just as valid as "it is not possible".

The fact is that Pasanius didn´t suffer anything otehr then shame from it, it bonded with his nervous system and served him well without ever harming him, not even when it was removed.

 

Yes, and the Deceiver's grabbed some into his pockets, and has now realised that he needs the other C'tan awake and on his side (for now) to carry that big pot of gold away to a nice cozy tomb... And there's hardly no threat - the Imperium are beginning to get the hint that they need to destroy the Tombs if they are to survive,

While the nightbringer just wants to kill them all so it evens out in a nice way. Both theories are valid and as such no one can claim his to be the true one (my point all the time).

 

Fluff also repeatedly tells that humans and the most powerful of human tech is like ants with spears compared to the necrons and ctan.

So there really is no threat what so ever to worry about from humanity.

 

I can understand if the ctan were a bit worried facing the entire of the eldar in all their glory plus them being backed by other races as well as the Slann.

But nowdays there are only some primitive ants (humans).

Fluff backs that more then it backs the necrons being afraid of humans.

 

Besides fluff also hints the Tau being the new and mot potent weapons-in-the-making against the ctan as the eldar failed, their secret weapons are scattered and the humans cant even find their own behind with both hands.

 

The talismans of vaul are either destroyed (ALL were needed in combination to destroy a ctan), taken by chaos and scattered.

 

It is safe, I think, to take it that Dorn was advised on how to convert/add to the Golden Throne a life-support facility, hence the Golden Throne in its current believed incarnation.

Not quite.

Old official fluff sais that Dorn heard the emperor speak about making the throne and putting him there.

Newer fluff (BL) sais the emperor already made the throne to control the webway and the breech there.

 

And there is also (cannot remember but I think it was official) fluff that tells of the emperor constructing a means to control the new danger to humanity in the form of appearing psychers by constructing eitehr one gigantic engine to locate and neutralise/control said individuals or several smaller "portale" ones that were to be installed into the black ships (the full potential and goal of the black ships was thus this).

 

I'm probably missing something - I can't see how it's contradictory, but I'm tired right now, so it could be obvious...

The contradiction is this:

Ctan made the pariah gene as the ultimate weapon against eldar.

Eldar consider it extremely dangerous.

Eldar would want to take this weapon away from the humans (in the end ctans).

Eldar do have the means, knowledge and possibility to destroy the largest and most potent concentration of pariah gene carriers in the imperium.

The eldar refuse to do so since their divinations tell that doing so would be even worse.

 

It's still a possibility though, and although it has been a long time since I have read the Eisenhorn books, I don't remember Cherubael trying to kill it's master (Or Prophaniti, for that matter, but if I don't remember one, I might not remember the other. I need to reread those books, but I have trouble rereading Abnett's work - I don't know why... :s).

Both prophaniti and cherubael tied to kill their masters on a more or less constant basis.

We also have a good example of a deamon called parmanides (other fluff).

 

There are several fluff references telling of how it is impossible for humans to utter chaos names (deamons true names), the name a deamon prince is given upon it´s ascencion or the name of a deamon in the warp.

 

Quote from the story of the lion-wolf:

"Dark Tongue, which could only be spoken in the warp.

...spelled out his chaos name, so reently betowed upon him by his greater daemon patron."

 

I know what I mean... even if no one else does. I did mean around Sol, but I failed to state that... presumably because I was thinking on the very human-o-centric thought of "Our sun is this size, so normal size must be 1 AU". Ah well.

It´s still not that simple.

1 Sun type.

2 Sun radii.

3 Sun radiation output.

4 Material used in the sphere and it´s particular tolerance to said radiation.

5 Radiation level is also a variable. Why keep it at 1AU, making it smaller saves on the material and build time but increases raidtion output.

6 Tensile strenght (negative tau) of the material must correspond to the "solar wind" strenght.

7 Shear strenght must correspond to the stars gravity and more importantly, gravitational flux.

 

=Impossible to have a "normal" or even a vaguily general Dyson Sphere.

 

Makes sense, then they realised that you oculd do a lot more than walk around in a reactor in it

Yeah, what took them so long:)

[Necrontyr]

You sound like I was the one starting it...

 

I showed restraint and tried to be logical only but after some insults and the gloating I had enough and even then the oh so evil reply I made was restrained.

So the problem being?

 

I apologise if I did start something, I have been told by another member some things about how this forum works, what the members are like etc. And as I said back in an earlier post, the CSGs members tend to accept more theories even if they do not hug closely to the given Background. Unfortunatly I got annoyed when I found you did not accept that they might be possible, so I apologise for that.

 

That is right, I say he cannot speak deamon since I have fluff backing this.

This means that your theory (albeit backed by fluff) is counterclaimed by my that is also backed by fluff.

The sum of this is that neither theory is right an dboth are meaning that the point is moot until more fluff proof comes along.

Ergo: You cannot claim abbaddon actuly commanding and suceeding in doing so, a deamon.

 

Slight mistake there on my count, it wasn't Abaddon saying it, it was his sorceror, Abaddon also sticks his Talon in the Deamon which is quite agood tool for persuasion...

 

...and I am not a mindreader so how should I know.

To me it sounded wrong.

 

You send offended, it was just a simple request

 

Anyway, will continue in morning, need sleep...

[Aidoneus]

Okay, I kinda lost track of what was said recently (I think more than a dozen very long posts were added in a single day, and I didn't feel like reading them all). However, I will say this: What is done is done, and let's move on. I don't care who started it, I don't care who got offended. From what I know of the people involved, I can guarantee no one meant to be insulting, but sometimes on the internet tone is hard to communicate, and people inadvertently sound harsher than they mean to. Can we please just stop pointing fingers and get on with it, keeping in mind that when someone sounds harsh, they probably don't mean to. I really don't want this thread to get shut down after so long, just because of a couple people misunderstanding each other and arguing over it.

[Severus6]

Last chance gents. Last chance.

 

Necrontyr, please be so kind as to go and read or re-read the rules.

 

Pyriel, if you felt that you were being personally attacked all you had to do was ask a Mod to look into it and it would have been handled.

 

As for anybody else that I have missed, the same goes for you. Respond intelligently and tactfully and as stated earlier, think before you type. Last and final warning for any and all involved. <_<

 

Severus6

[Necrontyr]

Think about this then...

The emperor was well knows (hard fluff) for his foreboding abilities. If he saw the coming doom he would be damned careful about saving all knowledge that he could in some of his private and well hidden places.

Afterwards the Man comes out from hiding with the golden treasure of technology ready at ahnd to save the day, unite a tech crazed mechanicus and start with the "real" project of saving humanity.

How very convinient huh?

 

It's possible that the Emperor did it but it's also likely that the information came from another source.

 

While the nightbringer just wants to kill them all so it evens out in a nice way. Both theories are valid and as such no one can claim his to be the true one (my point all the time).

 

Fluff also repeatedly tells that humans and the most powerful of human tech is like ants with spears compared to the necrons and ctan.

So there really is no threat what so ever to worry about from humanity.

 

Ants can do a lot of damage, especially ones which float around in big ships with Bombardment weaponry on board, Necron tombs are likely made of Living Metal which would reduce the damage but enough volleys could destroy the structures.

 

I can understand if the ctan were a bit worried facing the entire of the eldar in all their glory plus them being backed by other races as well as the Slann.

But nowdays there are only some primitive ants (humans).

Fluff backs that more then it backs the necrons being afraid of humans.

 

C'tan never fell worry, neither do Necrons, this was one of the reasons the Necrontyr were transformed into Necrons, so they wouldn't falter in the heat of battle. The C'tan were never worried about the lesser races the Old ones created, they would have really only been apprehensive and more cautious of the Old Ones due to things like the Talismans of Vaul.

 

The contradiction is this:

Ctan made the pariah gene as the ultimate weapon against eldar.

Eldar consider it extremely dangerous.

Eldar would want to take this weapon away from the humans (in the end ctans).

Eldar do have the means, knowledge and possibility to destroy the largest and most potent concentration of pariah gene carriers in the imperium.

The eldar refuse to do so since their divinations tell that doing so would be even worse.

 

Did the C'tan actually create the Pariah gene? I can't find anything that gives evidence that they did. If any of the C'tan did create it then it would either be the Outsider due to the effect his Sphere has on the Hive Mind or the Dragon as he was the C'tan who spent his time fighting the Eldar and almost wiped them out.

 

There are several fluff references telling of how it is impossible for humans to utter chaos names (deamons true names), the name a deamon prince is given upon it´s ascencion or the name of a deamon in the warp.

 

Does it count if the Deamon materialises into the Materium?

 

It´s still not that simple.

1 Sun type.

2 Sun radii.

3 Sun radiation output.

4 Material used in the sphere and it´s particular tolerance to said radiation.

5 Radiation level is also a variable. Why keep it at 1AU, making it smaller saves on the material and build time but increases raidtion output.

6 Tensile strenght (negative tau) of the material must correspond to the "solar wind" strenght.

7 Shear strenght must correspond to the stars gravity and more importantly, gravitational flux.

 

Also taking into account the risk andmagnitude of Solar Flares, if it's a particualrly lively Star there is a greater risk of Solar Flares occuring which as well as releasing excess radiation also has the risk of blasting a hole into the Sphere due to the intense heat.

 

Necrontyr, please be so kind as to go and read or re-read the rules.

 

Yep, I've read and re-read the rules, if I HAVE broken any then I apologise.

[Demonic D]

quote:

Did the C'tan actually create the Pariah gene? I can't find anything that gives evidence that they did.

 

If I am not mistaking me I have read something about it and I think that I was the Deceiver that came up with it.

(I will check it up)

Plotting have never been anything for the Nigthbringer, he is more straightforward.

 

qoute:The C'tan were never worried about the lesser races the Old ones created, they would have really only been apprehensive and more cautious of the Old Ones due to things like the Talismans of Vaul

 

Well they did got there but kick the last time and there actions fuel the warp and than they were forced into hiding.

I do not think that they will do the same mistake again. Than fluff tells us that the Deceiver wants to unite the C´tan because that is the only way if they want to bring the universe to their heel. The Eldar must be destroyed, the great eye must be stops and world of man must be enslaved.

 

And the Codex Necron tells us they often attack and destroy human outpost and mechanicus resurge stations

 

Talismans of Vaul: if not Abby hade been able to destroy it that the deceiver would have cast the Gothic sector into war again and again untill it he had been able to destroy them. This is state some were in the Necron codex or in the Armageddon book to BFG.. It tells at least me that he was very determen, He was threaten by it, it had to go.

 

Well untill monday Guys, see you than Demonic D out

[Pyriel]

I apologise if I did start something, I have been told by another member some things about how this forum works, what the members are like etc. And as I said back in an earlier post, the CSGs members tend to accept more theories even if they do not hug closely to the given Background. Unfortunatly I got annoyed when I found you did not accept that they might be possible, so I apologise for that.

Well you being new here and all that explains it.

I on the other hand, compared to my usual self, showed extreme (you should see me otherwise) restraint since admin asked me to some time ago.

But nevertheless I broke the restraint in the end and insulted you too.

Sorry bout that.

 

So you found out about how certain members in here are huh?

Sheesh, this means you now know what a fruitcake I can be...and knowledge is power:)

 

Slight mistake there on my count, it wasn't Abaddon saying it, it was his sorceror, Abaddon also sticks his Talon in the Deamon which is quite agood tool for persuasion...

And both the eisenhorn and counters books describe deamons being tortured for weeks by teh inquisitions most skilled interrogators without breaking the slightest bit.

 

It´s again, about the whole picture. It will leave very little theories and what we consider foolproof undisputed and often leaves us with more then one way to go when it comes to fluff.

And that is the beauty of it as it leaves the field open for conspiracies and whatnot:)

 

You send offended, it was just a simple request

Was not the slightest, sorry if I used inadequate means to present my view.

 

What is done is done, and let's move on. I don't care who started it, I don't care who got offended.

We are long past that. We are into the delicate pointings of various fluff that contradicts itself.

You should read it all, it´s very fun and it shines more then one light on fluff we think might be set in stone.

 

Ants can do a lot of damage, especially ones which float around in big ships with Bombardment weaponry on board, Necron tombs are likely made of Living Metal which would reduce the damage but enough volleys could destroy the structures.

Ants in ant ships are still just that. More then one instance in the fluff tells of whatt happens when ant ships meet necron ones.

There is simply no comparison.

The ctan did barely have any problems against eldar and slann fleets so what threat do humans pose.

 

Sure you stepped on an ant hive and they can be a pest but bear in mind that you are wearing a flame proof ABC suit and wielding a flamethrower.

 

C'tan never fell worry, neither do Necrons, this was one of the reasons the Necrontyr were transformed into Necrons, so they wouldn't falter in the heat of battle.

Does the fluff tell this explicitly or is it only that they promised to turn into necrons for eternal life?

 

Did the C'tan actually create the Pariah gene? I can't find anything that gives evidence that they did.

No, no hard fluff on this albeit the "evidence" is logics as well as no contradictionary fluff what so ever.

Ctans are starting to harvest humans now and they need the pariah gene, thoose are hard fluff facts.

 

Think (but do not remember 100%) that there are even hints in the fluff about humanity being tinkered with by the ctan ages ago.

 

Does it count if the Deamon materialises into the Materium?

According to fluff yes!

The deamon is not in it´s natural enviroment and you have to be either in the warp or a creature from the warp yourself.

 

There is a fluff instance where it was possible outside the warp but even then it took a week to memorise the "name" and a buttload of time to spell it out in a tongue wrecking manner.

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

There are several fluff references telling of how it is impossible for humans to utter chaos names (deamons true names), the name a deamon prince is given upon it´s ascencion or the name of a deamon in the warp.

 

Yet another thing Counter gets wrong :ot:

 

The new Eldar codex has a star map on pg. 19 which suggests that the Necrons have some presence on Mars, whatever it is-hope it helps

[Necrontyr]

Well you being new here and all that explains it.

I on the other hand, compared to my usual self, showed extreme (you should see me otherwise) restraint since admin asked me to some time ago.

But nevertheless I broke the restraint in the end and insulted you too.

Sorry bout that.

 

That's okay, I'm glad we've sorted it all out.

 

So you found out about how certain members in here are huh?

Sheesh, this means you now know what a fruitcake I can be...and knowledge is power:)

 

Ha, I don't think it mentioned you but that bit of info is useful :sweat:

 

It´s again, about the whole picture. It will leave very little theories and what we consider foolproof undisputed and often leaves us with more then one way to go when it comes to fluff.

And that is the beauty of it as it leaves the field open for conspiracies and whatnot:)

 

I'm starting to wonder whether GW actually coordinated their fluff as a lot of it does seem to contradict, but it does allow us to come up with interesting theories like thses.

 

Ants in ant ships are still just that. More then one instance in the fluff tells of whatt happens when ant ships meet necron ones.

There is simply no comparison.

The ctan did barely have any problems against eldar and slann fleets so what threat do humans pose.

 

Sure you stepped on an ant hive and they can be a pest but bear in mind that you are wearing a flame proof ABC suit and wielding a flamethrower.

 

Suppose so, I think the larger danger is the threat that Chaos poses, as the C'tan are vulnerable to the warp then that leaves an opening for Chaos to develop a new Blackstone Fortress type weapon.

 

Does the fluff tell this explicitly or is it only that they promised to turn into necrons for eternal life?

 

The Background information tells us that the Necrons were promised eternal life by the C'tan and that the C'tan altered their emotions to remove things like fear, so from previous things, such as Clones in Star Wars being emotionally engineered, Borg from Star Trek not feeling emotion (I think...), the list goes on! ut it certainly makes sense that the C'tan would emotionally engineer them so they wouldn't run away or falter.

 

No, no hard fluff on this albeit the "evidence" is logics as well as no contradictionary fluff what so ever.

Ctans are starting to harvest humans now and they need the pariah gene, thoose are hard fluff facts.

 

Think (but do not remember 100%) that there are even hints in the fluff about humanity being tinkered with by the ctan ages ago.

 

But then that goes back to the question of 'which C'tan created the Gene?' it makes the most sense to be the Deciever since he was the first to awake and probably created the Necron Pariah in the first place.

[Oblivion_11]

Lots of 40k-backstory, loved reading through the topic! Just had two questions that didn't seem clear to me, I might have missed it though, due to the massive information-overload of a 10-page topic....

 

1.) About the Navigator-gene, if I am not mistaken I think it has been consistently referred to in fluff as a stable mutation originating before the Emperor. Thus mankind could make warp-jumps before the Big Man came along, albeit at great danger and with no beacon to help navigating, I doubt that the Empire before the Dark Age of Strife was established without the aid of warp-jumps. This mutation would probably have come about due to mankinds nature as a latent psychic and Warp-sensitive race, thus would have nothing to do with neither the C'tan or the Emperor. The Old Ones or Chaos probably had nothing to do with it in more than a random sense (the warp causing mutations).

Even in 40k, evolution and chance can play a role.

Or have I gotten it all wrong?

 

2.) There was some talk about the origins of the Tyranids. I always thought since both Orks, Humans and even Eldar seem engineered by the Old Ones to act like weapons against the Necrons (with side-effects such as Orks being an uncontrollable weapon pointed in all directions at all times....) in some way, why not Tyranids? Since C'Tan like to eat bio-mass, wouldn't a living bio-weapon, engineered to just integrate ALL bio-mass it comes across, then turning it into new weapons, be the perfect weapons against the C'tan. Sounds like the kind of doomsday-weapon a dying Old One might release into a nearby galaxy when the end is inevitable, just so that all the juicy bio-mass the C'tan will need when waking again is now formed into the ultimate horror = the Hive Mind. It's one thing dining on isolated planets with defenseless Mon-keigh, I think even a C'tan will have problems dealing with a Hive Fleet. Especially if it has no other bio-mass left in the galaxy to feed on, except that Hive Fleet, which would move en-masse to neutralise it if a C'tan started to look hungrily at it. Evil master-plan for doomsday revenge 101. =)

 

This is of course completely without any reference to fluff and just my mad ramblings.

 

I blame the reindeers and wish you good night!

[Necrontyr]

1.) About the Navigator-gene, if I am not mistaken I think it has been consistently referred to in fluff as a stable mutation originating before the Emperor. Thus mankind could make warp-jumps before the Big Man came along, albeit at great danger and with no beacon to help navigating, I doubt that the Empire before the Dark Age of Strife was established without the aid of warp-jumps. This mutation would probably have come about due to mankinds nature as a latent psychic and Warp-sensitive race, thus would have nothing to do with neither the C'tan or the Emperor. The Old Ones or Chaos probably had nothing to do with it in more than a random sense (the warp causing mutations).

Even in 40k, evolution and chance can play a role.

Or have I gotten it all wrong?

 

I thought that the Emperor had alwys played a part in the making of the navigator gene.

 

2.) There was some talk about the origins of the Tyranids. I always thought since both Orks, Humans and even Eldar seem engineered by the Old Ones to act like weapons against the Necrons (with side-effects such as Orks being an uncontrollable weapon pointed in all directions at all times....) in some way, why not Tyranids? Since C'Tan like to eat bio-mass, wouldn't a living bio-weapon, engineered to just integrate ALL bio-mass it comes across, then turning it into new weapons, be the perfect weapons against the C'tan. Sounds like the kind of doomsday-weapon a dying Old One might release into a nearby galaxy when the end is inevitable, just so that all the juicy bio-mass the C'tan will need when waking again is now formed into the ultimate horror = the Hive Mind. It's one thing dining on isolated planets with defenseless Mon-keigh, I think even a C'tan will have problems dealing with a Hive Fleet. Especially if it has no other bio-mass left in the galaxy to feed on, except that Hive Fleet, which would move en-masse to neutralise it if a C'tan started to look hungrily at it. Evil master-plan for doomsday revenge 101. =)

 

a.) A Bio-weapon wouldn't be effective against the C'tan, they'd just absorb the life from it, the only thing which is effective against them is warp-based weapons.

 

b.) Hmm, reading in my 'Cron codex it suggests that there could be C;tan outside the galaxy and that the Old Ones originated universe wide, but I doubt they'd create the Tyranids as they can't create something in the Immaterium like the Hive Mind.

[Oblivion_11]

1.) As I said I don't have any fluff reference, more than the fact that the Navigator gene have been referred to as much older than the Imperium (and therefore probably the Emperor as well) in many novels. I also kinda like the fact that some part of the 40k-universe is not part of some hidden master-plan, but rather just dumb old luck! :wub:

 

2.) a) Then might not the Tyranids be an effective way of scouring said bio-mass while the C'tan sleep, only to move on in search of more bio-mass. When the C'tan awake = no bio-mass left in the galaxy and the Tyranids have already moved on to the next one. A sure-fire way of keeping the bio-mass from the C'tan at least. This is just rambling, I only want to believe it because I don't want the Tyranids to part of some C'tan ploy. And on the count of not being effective, a Tyranid Hive fleet would have no problem at all ripping a necrodermis apart and forcing the C'tan back into hiding. Since the hive mind is kind of its own material/psychical universe = no warp presence but loads of psychic power, blocks out warp around it, but creates its own psychic network/dimension in the hive mind. This would seem to me as the best way to integrate wast psychic power on the material plane without warp danger. Therfore I think it could psychic blast a C'tan quite hard.

More ramblings, I just don't think the Tyranids will sit helpless while the C'tan eat them. I think they are the answer to the C'tan eating most of the galaxy once before. Seeing as in fluff they are both portrayed as the Ultimate-Doom-of-Everything in fluff I think they could have a really nice showdown if Rhana dandra (sorry for spelling) ever comes about...

 

As always, blame the reindeer and don't take me to seriously!

[Necrontyr]

1.) As I said I don't have any fluff reference, more than the fact that the Navigator gene have been referred to as much older than the Imperium (and therefore probably the Emperor as well) in many novels. I also kinda like the fact that some part of the 40k-universe is not part of some hidden master-plan, but rather just dumb old luck!

 

Would make a nice change...

 

2.) a) Then might not the Tyranids be an effective way of scouring said bio-mass while the C'tan sleep, only to move on in search of more bio-mass. When the C'tan awake = no bio-mass left in the galaxy and the Tyranids have already moved on to the next one. A sure-fire way of keeping the bio-mass from the C'tan at least. This is just rambling, I only want to believe it because I don't want the Tyranids to part of some C'tan ploy. And on the count of not being effective, a Tyranid Hive fleet would have no problem at all ripping a necrodermis apart and forcing the C'tan back into hiding. Since the hive mind is kind of its own material/psychical universe = no warp presence but loads of psychic power, blocks out warp around it, but creates its own psychic network/dimension in the hive mind. This would seem to me as the best way to integrate wast psychic power on the material plane without warp danger. Therfore I think it could psychic blast a C'tan quite hard.

More ramblings, I just don't think the Tyranids will sit helpless while the C'tan eat them. I think they are the answer to the C'tan eating most of the galaxy once before. Seeing as in fluff they are both portrayed as the Ultimate-Doom-of-Everything in fluff I think they could have a really nice showdown if Rhana dandra (sorry for spelling) ever comes about...

 

If that did happen then the C'tan would just do what they did with the Enslavers, not exactly a master plan by the old ones.

[Pyriel]

Yet another thing Counter gets wrong

J.Barrington did that too so it makes it more acceptable coming from more then one source.

 

1.) About the Navigator-gene, if I am not mistaken I think it has been consistently referred to in fluff as a stable mutation originating before the Emperor. Thus mankind could make warp-jumps before the Big Man came along, albeit at great danger and with no beacon to help navigating, I doubt that the Empire before the Dark Age of Strife was established without the aid of warp-jumps. This mutation would probably have come about due to mankinds nature as a latent psychic and Warp-sensitive race, thus would have nothing to do with neither the C'tan or the Emperor. The Old Ones or Chaos probably had nothing to do with it in more than a random sense (the warp causing mutations).

Even in 40k, evolution and chance can play a role.

Or have I gotten it all wrong?

The first flights were generations long and the ability to travel super light speed was a very early one.

Fluff tells that the navigator gene was deliberatedly geneered by the imperium after experiments showed that human minds need to steer the spaceships.

 

2.) There was some talk about the origins of the Tyranids. I always thought since both Orks, Humans and even Eldar seem engineered by the Old Ones to act like weapons against the Necrons (with side-effects such as Orks being an uncontrollable weapon pointed in all directions at all times....) in some way, why not Tyranids? Since C'Tan like to eat bio-mass, wouldn't a living bio-weapon, engineered to just integrate ALL bio-mass it comes across, then turning it into new weapons, be the perfect weapons against the C'tan. Sounds like the kind of doomsday-weapon a dying Old One might release into a nearby galaxy when the end is inevitable, just so that all the juicy bio-mass the C'tan will need when waking again is now formed into the ultimate horror = the Hive Mind. It's one thing dining on isolated planets with defenseless Mon-keigh, I think even a C'tan will have problems dealing with a Hive Fleet. Especially if it has no other bio-mass left in the galaxy to feed on, except that Hive Fleet, which would move en-masse to neutralise it if a C'tan started to look hungrily at it. Evil master-plan for doomsday revenge 101. =)

The theory falls short because the old oens and later on the slann were working hard towards biological diversity. The seeding planets with all forms of life was high on the priority list.

 

Then if something like tyranids were needed as a last ditch effort then why make them so far away from the centre of the action that all would be lost anyway by the time the two forces eventually met.

 

Also, the tyranids seem to be very adapt at avoiding necron forces, not a very good biological weapon huh.

 

I also kinda like the fact that some part of the 40k-universe is not part of some hidden master-plan, but rather just dumb old luck!

Humans, it seems, have, except some small later alterations by the ctans, by just that dumb luck climbed down from the trees on their own. Just what mother nature seems to like.

 

Humans, or life on earth could not have been seeded by the slann as the life killing mystery swept through the galaxy after the slann "departed".

Eldar also refere to human "ancestors" crawling out of the oceans while they ruled the stars.

[Mechanicus]

The first flights were generations long and the ability to travel super light speed was a very early one.

Fluff tells that the navigator gene was deliberatedly geneered by the imperium after experiments showed that human minds need to steer the spaceships.

Not the Imperium, I'm afraid - it was engineered ten thousand years before the Imperium. The Emperor may have had a hand in their creation, but the Navigators pre-date the Imperium.

 

Humans, or life on earth could not have been seeded by the slann as the life killing mystery swept through the galaxy after the slann "departed".

Eldar also refere to human "ancestors" crawling out of the oceans while they ruled the stars.

There are hints that the Old One Qah left to create Humanity five hundred thousand years ago (Xenology), or at least to tweak it to be a psyker race rather than a pariah race (as the C'tan envisaged).

[Pyriel]

Not the Imperium, I'm afraid - it was engineered ten thousand years before the Imperium. The Emperor may have had a hand in their creation, but the Navigators pre-date the Imperium.

Dunno what you mean here, sure there were slight mutations amongst humans that pointed out to this but the navigator gene was not finalized before warp flight was established.

 

There are hints that the Old One Qah left to create Humanity five hundred thousand years ago (Xenology), or at least to tweak it to be a psyker race rather than a pariah race (as the C'tan envisaged).

First of all I take the xenology fluff with a big pinch of salt as the whole book is one big necron propaganda.

 

Second, the fluff is a bit contradicting here as otherwhere we are told that even the Slann didn´t know where the old ones went or that some were still left behind (or came and went).

It´s strange that a member of that super-race all of a sudden comes back just to tweak some ctan experiment and quickly dissapear.

If one can do that one could very well have done much much more.

 

So since it is so contradictionary as well as biased all paths are still equally open.

[Mechanicus]

Dunno what you mean here, sure there were slight mutations amongst humans that pointed out to this but the navigator gene was not finalized before warp flight was established.

Horus Heresy timeline: "[Millenia] 18-22: Age of Technology: Invention of the warp drive...", "[Millennia] 22-25: Age of Technology: First Navigators are born...", "[Millennia] 30-present: Age of the Imperium: Earth is conquered by the Emperor and enters into an alliance with the Mechanicum of Mars...". The Imperium could not have engineered the Navigators - it was created 8000 years after the Navigators, and 12000 years after the warp drive.

 

First of all I take the xenology fluff with a big pinch of salt as the whole book is one big necron propaganda.

 

Second, the fluff is a bit contradicting here as otherwhere we are told that even the Slann didn´t know where the old ones went or that some were still left behind (or came and went).

Liber Chaotica Slaanesh describes that the Old One pantheon was essentially created by the Eldar as warp entities that they summoned to the battlefield. It is possible that these warp entities were then infused with the spirits of a select few of the Old Ones. These became worshipped as gods. After the death of Eldanesh, no Eldar could anymore. But by that time, only three survived, if you believe Xenology. I don't quite see why it is contradictory - the Slann apparently don't know where they went, but another source (a vision) shows them no longer being able to be summoned.

It´s strange that a member of that super-race all of a sudden comes back just to tweak some ctan experiment and quickly dissapear.

If one can do that one could very well have done much much more.

Such as? This entity, Qah, was worshipped by the Hrud, and probably would have only been around for a short while before being forced back into the warp (Judging by daemon summonings, anyway), and so assuming the C'tan gave humanity the Pariah gene, if Qah gave humanity the psyker gene, it might be possible to override the pariahs, preventing the Yngir from gaining a weapon against the psychic races. If Qah had attacked the slumbering Necrons, they would have been alerted and would have awakened.

[Pyriel]

The Imperium could not have engineered the Navigators - it was created 8000 years after the Navigators, and 12000 years after the warp drive.

Nope, the pre-imperium did that.

 

fluff tells us of the emperor back then was always a man hidden in the shadows, often posing as a great scientist or man behind a leader subtly pushing humanity towards the path that he forsaw to be the best one.

 

Liber Chaotica Slaanesh describes that the Old One pantheon was essentially created by the Eldar as warp entities that they summoned to the battlefield

As far as i remember no other liber chaos (knorne, nurgle etc) had those references and there are other fluff telling of the old ones to have created the slann in order to carry on with their "plans" after they themselves vanish somewhere else.

So it sure is contradicting.

 

If Qah had attacked the slumbering Necrons, they would have been alerted and would have awakened.

Even if such a direct and primitive response was choosen it would reap a great tally amongs the slumbering necrons, nothing to frown upon.

 

Other posibilities would be to give knowledge (power) to the already established anti-ctan races out there or leave a foolproof message to the coming humanity (surely the old ones could have done that).

 

But this all powerful guy comes flying by, making a race of weak apes into highly unstable psychers... thereby feeding chaos and thereby working against the already established number one ctan weapon of the slann (and by default old ones), the Eldar?

Nah I don´t buy it, it´s to contradictionary and far far to illogical. Occham would dissaproove of this.

[Mechanicus]

Nope, the pre-imperium did that.

 

fluff tells us of the emperor back then was always a man hidden in the shadows, often posing as a great scientist or man behind a leader subtly pushing humanity towards the path that he forsaw to be the best one.

Well, so long as we've gotten that straightened out ("Fluff tells that the navigator gene was deliberatedly geneered by the imperium after experiments showed that human minds need to steer the spaceships.").

 

As far as i remember no other liber chaos (knorne, nurgle etc) had those references

Perhaps because none other dealt with visions of the history of the Eldar? :angry:

 

and there are other fluff telling of the old ones to have created the slann in order to carry on with their "plans" after they themselves vanish somewhere else.

So it sure is contradicting.

I'm afraid I have never heard of this background, especially since until the Necron Codex, the Old Ones had never been heard of, and after it, the Slann were assumed to be another name for the Old Ones. This was only refuted recently, since the Eldar Codex, where GW implied that the Old Ones were a number of races (Slann included), and Gav Thorpe confirmed that. Either way, why couldn't the Slann have been told to continue with the Old One gods' work shortly before the end of the War in Heaven, since there were not that many left of the gods?

 

Even if such a direct and primitive response was choosen it would reap a great tally amongs the slumbering necrons, nothing to frown upon.

And kill the rest of the galaxy. One tomb wakes, so do the rest, albeit slowly.

 

Other posibilities would be to give knowledge (power) to the already established anti-ctan races out there or leave a foolproof message to the coming humanity (surely the old ones could have done that).

How do you know they didn't? After all, the Emperor rules mankind by "the will of the gods". The Emperor would have assumed that he would be around to combat them. Horus would have proved him wrong.

 

But this all powerful guy comes flying by, making a race of weak apes into highly unstable psychers... thereby feeding chaos and thereby working against the already established number one ctan weapon of the slann (and by default old ones), the Eldar?

The point is that humanity would have eventually become a race of stable psykers that could resist the corruption of Chaos, much like the Emperor himself.

 

Nah I don´t buy it, it´s to contradictionary and far far to illogical. Occham would dissaproove of this.

GW and Occam don't often mix very well...

[Pyriel]

Perhaps because none other dealt with visions of the history of the Eldar? msn-wink.gif

Chaos cult visions are a biased source.

Sure most sources would be and therefore I leave my options open.

 

I'm afraid I have never heard of this background, especially since until the Necron Codex, the Old Ones had never been heard of, and after it, the Slann were assumed to be another name for the Old Ones. This was only refuted recently, since the Eldar Codex, where GW implied that the Old Ones were a number of races (Slann included), and Gav Thorpe confirmed that. Either way, why couldn't the Slann have been told to continue with the Old One gods' work shortly before the end of the War in Heaven, since there were not that many left of the gods?

I have, to bad I don´t remember when. A couple of years back I didn´t take fluff so seriously (not enough interesst) so I never memorised the sources.

 

And kill the rest of the galaxy. One tomb wakes, so do the rest, albeit slowly.

That seemed to be the plan anyway.

There was a wide scale galactic plague of a kind that removed life and that forced the ctan to hide.

 

The old ones and slann never had any problem seeding planets with life so why not destroy everything including the bad and start all over again?

 

How do you know they didn't? After all, the Emperor rules mankind by "the will of the gods". The Emperor would have assumed that he would be around to combat them. Horus would have proved him wrong.

Simple. Because they failed!

The eldar only made six blackstones and lost them all.

Humans put their efforts into other things then this ultimate enemy (ctans) and failed as well.

 

The emperor was always balanced by the dark sides in the warp and they often clouded his foresight (HH).

 

The point is that humanity would have eventually become a race of stable psykers that could resist the corruption of Chaos, much like the Emperor himself.

Yes, humans seem to be the next experiment after the failed eldar.

But then the fall of the emperor prevents this and since the old ones did have time to meddle with ape geenes then surely they could come by and meddle some with a corpse on a throne to bring back their biological weapons online again...but they don´t.

Thus this theory is highly illogical.

 

GW and Occam don't often mix very well...

Acctuly they do but one must look close to find the puzzle pieces that fit with one another :(

[Mechanicus]

Chaos cult visions are a biased source.

Sure most sources would be and therefore I leave my options open.

This entire debate, then, would be pointless, since if you say that most sources are biased, and that you want to leave your options open, then nothing will ever be decided on. :(

 

I have, to bad I don´t remember when. A couple of years back I didn't take fluff so seriously (not enough interesst) so I never memorised the sources.

Surely you still have it around? If so, could you look for it?

 

There was a wide scale galactic plague of a kind that removed life and that forced the ctan to hide.

 

The old ones and slann never had any problem seeding planets with life so why not destroy everything including the bad and start all over again?

How would you destroy everything? The galaxy had just been ravaged for millions of years by a now temporarily sleeping menace that if reawakened would just start the whole thing again. They nearly won last time against a species more advanced than most, if not all, other races. What makes you think the Slanni would stand a chance?

 

Simple. Because they failed!

The eldar only made six blackstones and lost them all.

Humans put their efforts into other things then this ultimate enemy (ctans) and failed as well.

The Old Ones were nearly wiped out, but some were still present (As evidenced that nearly all were eaten by Slaanesh during the fall). The Emperor was around since 8000BCE, so there's a good 30,000 years to give a warning. You assume that the Old Ones, if able to give a warning, would enable whatever race they warned to destroy them. The Eldar knew about them and failed to stop them, so I don't see your point.

 

But then the fall of the emperor prevents this and since the old ones did have time to meddle with ape geenes then surely they could come by and meddle some with a corpse on a throne to bring back their biological weapons online again...but they don´t.

Perhaps because the one who originally meddled was killed by Slaanesh during the fall. The only one left was Cegorach, and he was stuck in the webway with his Harlequins.

 

Acctuly they do but one must look close to find the puzzle pieces that fit with one another

Such as?

[Necrontyr]

There was a wide scale galactic plague of a kind that removed life and that forced the ctan to hide.

 

Just to shed some light upon that, the Plague was when a race called the Enslavers (Check GW Monster Feature thing), these creatures came form the warp and fed on all the living creatures, C'tan got hungry so went into stasis to awake when some food had evolved.

[NemFX]

Oh Emperor, the HERESY!

 

Can't you people learn to TYPE?

 

 

Joking aside, I read through most of this (10 pages is alot to digest when you aren't the biggest fan of those xenos..) and I've come up with some observations.

 

There is mention of a schism between the AdMech armies and the Imperium at large. There have been rumours floating around saying that there will be an AdMech army being made soon, so that should be interesting to watch..

 

Sigmar might be the 20th primarch, but also in the running are Chuck Norris, and Steve Irwin (who was killed by something similar to a C'tan, and had his whole chapter show up for the funeral on their homeworld of Australia..)

 

The Void Dragon (at least according to DoW) can somehow influence things despite being in stasis. That would explain the Iron Men uprising, and the 'robotic skeletons' that was mentioned with the Elysrian drop troopers.

 

The pariahs seem to be generally human-only, since the 'Old Ones' changed the human genome way back before humans evolved, so that they would have useful tools in the event of Chaos. The Necrons seem to have a general purpose fear of Chaos as indicated by the DoW games. In Dark Assault it's said that the Necrons take extra time to scour the land obtained after beating Chaos, and that the basalt pillars the Necrons use are a natural bane to Chaos.

 

Also, not exactly concrete info here, but apparently Necrons will eventually have vehicles, since they only (essentially) have troops at this point.

[Aidoneus]

Also, not exactly concrete info here, but apparently Necrons will eventually have vehicles, since they only (essentially) have troops at this point.

Right, because that "Monolith" is just a figment of our collective imagination. :devil:

[Divergent Reality]

its not like the necrons really need another tank. the monolith is sort of the catch all dry ice oxygen destroyer. it can cover all the bases. as fun as a fast necron vehicle would be, do we really want to see fast unmodifiable armor vehicles? the nice thing about the monolith is that you can penetrate it. give the necrons a fast vehicle and you can never penetrate it. (assuming the necron player is smart and moves it over six inches a turn)