Demonic D Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Dear: Aidonus :D How can the C tan not bee gods.... You say that they are just and I quote: "only extremely powerful physical beings" So was the emperor. To quite many people in the empire he is a God (thanks to the church that is) NO Pyriel the emperor is not a god so don’t make a 2-a4 page bomb thank you. The emperor reshaped humankind to better stand against the rune powers etc etc.... But yes he was "only a extremely powerful physical beings" not a god, but with his own great power, plans for humankind etc. He maid him self what he were hopping to never become, he became a god due to his actions and greatness. That was one thing he could not control his followers love and affection for him, they elevated him to godhood. And so did the C´tan, call them parasites, slave drivers galatic mother-in-law’s whatever, still their asome power and that they enslave and burn the galaxy still puts them in the God label draw... It is there action and how other viwe them that will give them their label demon, angles or god etc. Do you really need to bee able to wield the warp to become a god or what is your question? The warp: The C´tan is extremely powerful physical beings with powers yes. But as I sad before their armies cant control the warp so they don’t have any use for it. You know that so what is the question?????? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicus Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Sorry mechanicus, tried to find the fluff on the old ones amongst all the books I have and still havent found it. To much material to go through. Did a google on the subject and google agreed to the things I said but pointed out the wrong sources, really weird. Hmm... Okay then. Looks like we've reached a stalemate. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 GW said that the fantasy world was not a part of the 40k universe(heard off the BL forum i think) As far as I remember GW only said that Sigmar was not a missing primarch. For the rest of the connections between 40k and fantasy it seems like GW have made their utmost to include hints and easter eggs in the fantasy books and fluff so that people can draw pararells to 40k. In fantasy there are chainswords, powerfists and even on occasion chaos space marines. Hmm... Okay then. Looks like we've reached a stalemate. smile.gif Well, I don´t see this as some kind of "pissing contest" or who is right wins. (not saying you do, just clearifying things from my perspective) I´m genuinly interessted in the background and would like to know more and it pisses me of that I can´t find what I´we read, hell I don´t even remember if it was 40k or fantasy fluff. Maybe you could find sources on the old ones that go against what you have seen so far, GW is known for inconsistencies and contradicting fluff. How can the C tan not bee gods.... You say that they are just and I quote: "only extremely powerful physical beings"So was the emperor. To quite many people in the empire he is a God (thanks to the church that is) NO Pyriel the emperor is not a god so don’t make a 2-a4 page bomb thank you. The ctans are not gods, they call themselves that (it´s an ego thing). 1 They have no correspondent warp signature. 2 They are physical beings only. 3 They were never born out of worship or amount of "feelings". 4 Their powers do not grow and vane with the amount of worshippers they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicus Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Well, I don´t see this as some kind of "pissing contest" or who is right wins. (not saying you do, just clearifying things from my perspective) I´m genuinly interessted in the background and would like to know more and it pisses me of that I can´t find what I´we read, hell I don´t even remember if it was 40k or fantasy fluff. Maybe you could find sources on the old ones that go against what you have seen so far, GW is known for inconsistencies and contradicting fluff. Just to clarify on my side, I was referring to stalemate as in a position where neither side to a discussion can progress. And I will look for all material I can find on the Old Ones, but there isn't much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divergent Reality Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 The ctans are not gods, they call themselves that (it´s an ego thing).1 They have no correspondent warp signature. 2 They are physical beings only. 3 They were never born out of worship or amount of "feelings". 4 Their powers do not grow and vane with the amount of worshippers they have. so the fear that almost every race has for a death figure wielding a scythe is not a form of worship? and keep in mind that the emperor was not born out of worship as well. he gained the following after proving himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 GW said that the fantasy world was not a part of the 40k universe(heard off the BL forum i think) As far as I remember GW only said that Sigmar was not a missing primarch. It definately said that fantasy and 40k are in different worlds(I think Gav Thorpe said that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 Yes, he's feared by many races, but he doesn't gain his power from that fear. Gods derive their power, indeed their very existence, from the emotions and worship of mortals. The C'tan do not. Also, gods are beings of emotion and feeling, and they therefore exist in the Warp. The C'tan have absolute no Warp presence whatsoever. The Emperor may or may not technically be a god. If he has his powers independent of other factors, he's not a god, but rather just a very powerful person. If, however, he gains his power from humanity as a whole (as has been implied in fluff), then we would technically count as a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicus Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 The definitions of god used so far here are only really applicable to the Warp Gods. Whilst they are the predominant gods, the definition of god is simply: 1. God a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being. 2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. 3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol. 4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god. 5. A very handsome man. 6. A powerful ruler or despot. From the American Heritage dictionary. Definition one doesn't particularly work, and neither do five or six. Definitions two, three and four all fit for both warp gods and C'tan. So technically the C'tan are gods - just not warp gods, and warp gods are in the majority (Eldar/Old One gods, possibly ork gods, Chaos gods). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exalted Warsmith Adam Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Am I the only one who notices a similarity here? 4 Chaos Gods....4 Necron C'tan. (Albeit 2 are sleeping...) Perhaps these are related? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necrontyr Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I noticed that, and I think it's just for balance in a way, four on each side, more of either would probably have people shouting 'They're far too powerful!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Good point, I never thought of that. If we have 4 ctans and 4 chaos gods (malal excluded) then the only missing link is 4 "good guys" but nope, there is only one emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Good point, I never thought of that. If we have 4 ctans and 4 chaos gods (malal excluded) then the only missing link is 4 "good guys" but nope, there is only one emperor. The laughing God-that's 2 good guys(Gork&mork possibly as well-4) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted June 2, 2007 Author Share Posted June 2, 2007 I think y'all are just grasping at straws here. There are in fact many more than 4 Chaos gods; the usual 4 are just more powerful than the rest. And there used to be more than 4 C'Tan too, but they were eaten. Also, so what if there are 4 of each? 4 is just a good number for many reasons. It allows rivalries and balances of power that would be much more difficult with more or fewer "gods" than the four. I've known many stories and games and whatnot that have four gods or powers for just that reason. Four or five seem to be the magic numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 God C´tan why argu about a lable that so alusive... C´tan is one of the oldes things in the galaxy... And they are powerfull.. The Necron codex talks about them as Gods but yes that from the necrontyr point of wive so what. Lets move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divergent Reality Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 the necron codex is mostly written as a historical/archaeological archive, not as a record of the necrontyr. but just like every other codex it shows the subject army as the biggest/toughest/most dangerous force out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Would be fun seeing some fluff on a clash between necrons and tyranids... Both are unstoppable armies of utter doom etc blah blah blah. :rolleyes: Wonder who would win, I meen both are unbeatable (in the fluff of their codexi) and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciples of Phobos Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Great thread. Just a thought though.... page 15 of the 4th ed. Eldar codex shows several "tomb worlds" (for lack of a better name at this time). Is there enough fluff out there to reverse engineer the location of the dragon and at least for the moment settle this one point. I'll start off... (working from galactic north) 1. Talismans of Vaul: likely location of blackstone fortresses 2. Shrine of Elronhir: unknown 3. Naogeddon: NightBringer or Deceiver, can't remember which. 4. Dark gates of Rhidnol: unknown 5. Mars: Dragon's tomb? 6. Moon of nightmares: unknown 7. Curses of Alganar: unknown 8. Pavonis: NightBringer or Deceiver, can't remember which. 9. Ath-Ethlon: unknown 10 Lyriax: Outsider I'm getting back into 40k after a 10 year hiatus so my knowledge of the fluff isn't what it used to be any and all info would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicus Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Talismans of Vaul are in the approximate position of the Gothic Sector, where the Blackstone Fortresses were kept and presumably found Elronhir was the Eldar hero who destroyed the mon-keigh (the other primitive species, not humans) Naogeddon is the Deceiver's Tomb Dark Gates of Rhidhol are likely the Gates of Varl (as an aside, the phrase "Elthir corannir rhiantha en" translates as "the Eldar maiden who weeps tears for the warrior-folk in the starlight which shines upon the waters of Rhidhol during the winter". It is a deep expression of grief and loss, with implications of eternal woe and heartache) Moon of Nightmares is quite possibly the Culexus Temple The Cursus of Alganar is one of the three mythical Gateways of the Gods, and is known as Tallarn to the Imperium Pavonis is the Tomb of Kaelis Ra - symbol used to indicate it is reverse of all others Ath Ethon is Rigal IV to the Imperium, Eldar battled Imperial forces off the Exodite world of Ath-Ethon Lyriax is the Outsider's sphere in all probability (or perhaps the sphere is the C'tan - it could be his Necrodermis, you never know...) And that leaves Mars. Make of that what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciples of Phobos Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Wow, please tell me you did not write all of that off the top of your head. Unfortunately, thats not a ringing endorsement for the location of the Dragon. If we can make a cautious assumption that each location contains only one significant artifact or event, is it possible through the process of elimination to assign the location of the Dragon to Mars? 1. Talismans of Vaul: location of blackstone fortresses 2. Shrine of Elronhir: homeworld of the mon-keigh? 3. Naogeddon: Deceiver's tomb 4. Dark gates of Rhidnol: unknown 5. Mars: Dragon's tomb? 6. Moon of nightmares: Culexus temple 7. Curses of Alganar: Gateway? 8. Pavonis: Tomb of Kaelis Ra 9. Ath-Ethlon: unknown 10 Lyriax: Outsider That means #1,3,6 & 10 seem to be of enough significance to rule them out for any further consideration at this time. #2, 7 & 8 seems like they might be of sufficient significance to rule the out but more info would help to clear the matter. #4 & 9 needs lots of help at this point. Great info let's see if anyone else can remeber or better yet find out anyting more. Editted for gramar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Would be fun seeing some fluff on a clash between necrons and tyranids...Both are unstoppable armies of utter doom etc blah blah blah. :wacko: Wonder who would win, I meen both are unbeatable (in the fluff of their codexi) and so on. Well Pyriel ;) I would say that the necrons is to week to begin a global galactic war, they just attack small outpost and mechanius bases to stop us from gaining new tech to defend our self... as get that is.. The bad thing is that GW has made their story so absolute towards an end of utter doom. but yes I do see your point. And yes we do have some hard hitting unite by they run as an Elite option not like the tyranids with their genstealers as a troop options.. hate them.... I would say that the galaxy would be ruled by the orks or the tyranids; they are to many of them to take them on. Ps: anything new at wizzard games? if not, than i hope that you have a good week.. @ D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 The talismans of vaul are scattered. They were found in the gothic sector but half (or more) fell to chaos hands and were taken away. At lest one was destroyed (thus the talismans are no longer an useful weapon against the ctan). And even if they were the whereabouts of all remaining talismans are unknown. The culexus temple is already known to the eldar (what it is and where it is) and little suggests that the necrons run the place. It is an imperial temple run and secretly monitored by the officcio assasinorum - meaning the high lords of terra have direct knowledge of what is going on there. The necrons are only small harvesting parties at the moment, hints are given that their "real" armies and fleets will awake soon. If that happens (when rather) the tyranids will seem like a small nuinsance compared to the necrons. The talismans of vaul are scattered. They were found in the gothic sector but half (or more) fell to chaos hands and were taken away. At lest one was destroyed (thus the talismans are no longer an useful weapon against the ctan). And even if they were the whereabouts of all remaining talismans are unknown. The culexus temple is already known to the eldar (what it is and where it is) and little suggests that the necrons run the place. It is an imperial temple run and secretly monitored by the officcio assasinorum - meaning the high lords of terra have direct knowledge of what is going on there. The necrons are only small harvesting parties at the moment, hints are given that their "real" armies and fleets will awake soon. If that happens (when rather) the tyranids will seem like a small nuinsance compared to the necrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicus Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 The Talismans of Vaul are all either destroyed or in Chaos hands - that much is clear from the BFG rulebook. I believe two are left, but I could be wrong. Ath-Ethon is an Eldar Exodite world, or so I'm told, but "There can be no peace while alien feet still tread on Ath-Ethon" is a bit severe for a simple Exodite world, although it could be on the principal. And why it would be featured on the map is dubious. There are three Gateways to the Gods, and only one is known - and that's on Tallarn, and is known as the Cursus of Alganar. The others could have been already discovered - it would explain the hostility if Ath-Ethon was one. I think the Gates of Rhidhol could be the last, but that's a guess. And no, I didn't write that from memory - I covered this on another forum a while back, so I refreshed my memory of it there. :teehee: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 The Talismans of Vaul are all either destroyed or in Chaos hands - that much is clear from the BFG rulebook. I believe two are left, but I could be wrong. Eldrad destroyed one of the remaining two blackstone fortresses during the 13th black crusade, at least, that's what it implies in his codex entry, I could be interpreting this incorrectly, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Pyriel my man! The necrons are only small harvesting parties at the moment, hints are given that their "real" armies and fleets will awake soon.If that happens (when rather) the tyranids will seem like a small nuinsance compared to the necrons. Were have you read this Pyriel, can you give me something more a hint towards a book or codex... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDeath Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Oh Adeptus Mechanicus...you make me laugh so. If the Ordo Xenos knew what you had in your basement, Mars would have been declared Perditus long, long ago, and you'd all have been summarily executed. But really, how can you not know when you have a being more powerful than the stars sleeping beneath you? Such naivete! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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