Aidoneus Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 That is a fact that Void Dragon is on Mars. That is said in Necron Codex. Don't have codex right now so can't qoute it for now. Nope, never says it explicitly. Implies it enough that it's pretty darned obvious, but never actually comes right out and says it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1208720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 That is a fact that Void Dragon is on Mars. That is said in Necron Codex. Don't have codex right now so can't qoute it for now. Nope, never says it explicitly. Implies it enough that it's pretty darned obvious, but never actually comes right out and says it. Well just say that for most Necron players,he is there. No direkt namn but every thing ells points to it. In the Codex the dragon is laying around his machines and strange half dead pepope in strange robes and machineparts... :) There is another text in the NECON codex that "tells" about the age of strife and something about the corupt machines... Some ones like me have read enoght to belive that he rest on mars, but thats not the only way you can look and read at a text... Lets not argu about the wihte colours on a wihte page. Some ones thinks that the dragon is on mars, and som do not. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1209105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 well said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1209578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Than I have not read anything ells that would state what it ells could be.. Captain Idaho: Thanks! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1210147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 22, 2007 Author Share Posted March 22, 2007 Well just say that for most Necron players,he is there. No direkt namn but every thing ells points to it. In the Codex the dragon is laying around his machines and strange half dead pepope in strange robes and machineparts... :rolleyes: There is another text in the NECON codex that "tells" about the age of strife and something about the corupt machines... Some ones like me have read enoght to belive that he rest on mars, but thats not the only way you can look and read at a text... Lets not argu about the wihte colours on a wihte page. Some ones thinks that the dragon is on mars, and som do not. :sweat: I'm not arguing that he isn't there. All I'm saying is that it's merely implied, not stated explicitly. That's an important distinction, as GW clearly wants it to be something of a mystery still. Particularly because I don't forsee them "waking up" the Dragon anytime soon. For the record, I fully endorse the belief that he's on Mars. I would have thought that was obvious. After all, I'm the one who started this thread in the first place! :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1213012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 ^_^ Great ,than we cleard that out Aidoneus. Of course he lies deep under the dune at mars, what ells could it bee... As a necron player I am quite feed up with GW giving me lose end instead of an clear answer... I would say that I think that it is just that that make some necron players a bit angry and ready to speculate, just to find that answer that they what to hear or whould love to belive...Its human. Necrons need some more soild fluff to feed us who play thems, we need more..... :verymad: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1214068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 23, 2007 Author Share Posted March 23, 2007 I actually disagree. I like the mysteries and riddles. It's fun. But maybe that's just the sort of person I am. :unsure: On a slightly more practical note, I think GW does it because, in the 40k universe, the Necrons are a very mysterious race. They strike without warning and disappear without a trace; they've only been spotted in a (relatively) small number of cases; their origins are completely shrouded in myth and obscurity... Overall, the vague and secretive nature of the Necron fluff seems entirely appropriate to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1214626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusco Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 think of it if he was awakened he would destroy terra and kill the heatrt of the imperium :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1214774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Naa Terra is quite well guarded for that. But that again, if he can corupte the mechanicus than he will have the whole human empire to play with, why hit on Terra... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1214859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 think of it if he was awakened he would destroy terra and kill the heatrt of the imperium :lol: maybe that will be what humanity needs after all! bare with me here! there is a theory that the emperor has not been reborn as his soul is still trapped within the body on the golden throne, which means with its destruction he can return to complete his crusade. not that i really believe such blasphemy, but there are those on this very forum who do... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1215371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 not that i really believe such blasphemy, but there are those on this very forum who do... :whistling: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1215459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotsa_terminators Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 If the necrons kill the Emperor, and bring about the birth of the Star Child, it's game over for the Necrons. We all know they hate the warp, and the Star Child is supposedly the "master" of the Warp, able to take on the chaos gods without a problem... my .02 Imperial Credits Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1216393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 [there is a theory that the emperor has not been reborn as his soul is still trapped within the body on the golden throne, which means with its destruction he can return to complete his crusade. Well if the empire of man can survive his rebirth. No beecon in the warp, it would be a new age of strife. And chaos would have a field day picking us of one by one. Than the warp is a problem for Necrons, Not the C Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1216410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 iv always wondered about that actually. bare in mind that before his interment in the golden throne the imperium still got on well enough. according to the HH novels the fledgling imperium was still guided by the emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1216803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 iv always wondered about that actually. bare in mind that before his interment in the golden throne the imperium still got on well enough. according to the HH novels the fledgling imperium was still guided by the emperor. However, he won't necessarily be reborn immediately. And even if he is, he won't reach maturity for a decade, at least. So for that amount of time Humanity would get screwed pretty hard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1216868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Yes and the inquistion whould not let him of the hook just like that. It would be an new civil war before he could be reborn.... and than a new age of bad things going iven more wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1217414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 On pg.15 of codex Eldar is a map that shows all the major tomb worlds that confirms there is something on Mars, something to do with the Necrons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1217828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotsa_terminators Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 People navigated before the astronomicon. It's just harder without the Emperor. I really doubt the =I= could stand before th Emperor, if he came back full force, nothing they could do would stop him. Makes me giggle just thinking about how badly the High Lords would crap themselves... and yeah, the Eldar think something's on Mars, something that goes "tick tock" in the night Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1217885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic D Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 People navigated before the astronomicon. It's just harder without the Emperor. I really doubt the =I= could stand before th Emperor, if he came back full force, nothing they could do would stop him. Makes me giggle just thinking about how badly the High Lords would crap themselves... and yeah, the Eldar think something's on Mars, something that goes "tick tock" in the night Yes it would be harder when you would not be able to travle the Warp.... The human would have to resolt to torch ships again. Still with out the beecon there would only be darkness... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1219236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 The four remaining C'Tan are the Nightbringer, the Deceiver, the Dragon, and the Outsider. The first two names are pretty obvious, given the personalities + background of those two beings. The Dragon definitely resides inside Mars, but not much else is known about it. And virtually nothing is known about the Outsider. He seems to be absolutely insane, and that's about it. That's all you need to know about them really, since this topic is just about the Dragon and his connection with Mars.. . a time before the coming of the Emperor when a far older power was paid homage on Mars Dunno, maybe there is a ctan on mars but if so then I think its prison is pretty solid. The emperor united earth and mars and made it into a +10k year lasting alliance. Now to achieve such a thing one must know everything there is to know about both organisations and various schisms, beliefs etc that could possibly cause future friction. The emperor saw everything in the minds he met and as he met and discussed with pretty much everyone of importance on mars and read up on the old beliefs (that could cause friction if not brought into the equation) he would damn sure see that (if) tehre was an old god lying asleep on the planet. There is a short passage in the Necron codex about a couple small Necron ships flying into Mars' atmosphere, and even managing to set down on Mars (I believe right outside the Noctis Labirynth) before being destroyed. It is my belief that these Necrons were trying to re-awaken the sleeping god. If that's the case, it means the tech-priests couldn't have done so themselves, which means they don't knowingly worship the C'Tan. A normal human can awake a ctan (Nightbringer) so if teh AM would want to tehn they would have done so. Thus they are either unaware of the ctan or do not want it awaken (know what it is). Thus, if Ferrus did defeat one, it wouldn't have stayed with him on his hands like that. Sure it would. In the ultramarine books Pasanius gets a hand made of necrodermis and it stays with him all the time. ndividuals that have been exposed to the dark vaults on Terra (such as Keeper Cripias, 3rd Ed rulebook) clearly know and fear the name. Ergo: It is known to terra and thus was known to the emperor. Later teh Emperor also had extensive trade with the eldar and if he was aware of a ctan on marsh (logics and records on terra tell he was) then he must surely also be aware that an ancient and advanced race like teh eldar must have known even more and being a logical man he would surely have shared information with teh eldar. Thus the emperor must have deemed the threat to be of such low magnitude that he either didn´t bother, left it for later or mended the problem himself with or without the help of the eldar. Okay, you got me there. I just glanced over that document because it's pretty much indecipherable. But yeah, the word C'Tan is definitely in there. So at least someone within the Imperium knows about them. There are records on terra and the inquisition knows abuot the ctan and at lest one of their hidden places (nightbringer). This points towards an information source, either old records made by teh emperor or the eldar helping or both. (doubt the AM knows anything) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1246587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necrontyr Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 *Fizzle* Afternoon all, I have been informed across my corrupted Imperial networks :mellow: that there was a debate going on here about the Dragon, now as a Necorn player, and more specifically, a servant of the Dragon I can give my own views and give a flavour of what us Necron Players think: What is definate is the Dragon brought about the Golden Age or technology for the Imperium of Man, it allowed Terminator armour, Titans and ships to be developed, this information was released by the Dragon into the minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus Techpreists, this either could have been directly by the Dragon if he was on Mars, simply because he's literally plugged into their power networks so when an Adept plugs himself up to a piece of Tech he suddenly has a brainwave about a new ship design that could work. If the Dragon is not awake then the same thing could have been done by one of his lords. The Dragon, we know, is sleeping after taking a direct hit form a fully powered up Blackstone Fortress back in the time of the Old Ones, it is likely that the being Ferrus enountered was an Advanced Tomb Guardian built out of Living Metal (Which is what Monoliths, Warscythes, Necrons and Necrodermises are made out of) due to the nature of the Living Metal he could have been corrupted slightly giving him knowledge of some new tech which is why the Iron Hands became crazily good with Tech. The Dragon when he was hit retreated to his main tomb world to recover and to recharge, I personally believe that he's on Mars but he easily could not be as I'm about to point out shortly. The evidence showing he is on Mars is strong, an Explorator commander tried to get the Mechanicum to close the Noctis Labyrinth and seal it off completely, this is probably because he found some text he could translate and it said a being of great power lived on Mars, though this was on Naogeddon, the Tomb World of the Deciever, now the Deciever is the sort of C'tan who'd liely plant something which oculd be translated in order to confuse the Imperium, he also has corrupted a heck of a lot of the Adeptus Mechanicum through various methods. There is also some reports from Tech Adepts about it such as this: http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/3/ Now on to the main theme: Could the Dragon not actually be on Mars? Well, lets start of with the easy arguements before we go into pure theoretical stuff, as I said before the Deceiver has interests in Mars and could have made the Mechanicum get worried just for the sheer pleasure of it by leaving a tablet with a load of info on the Dragon. As has already been said the Necron ships wouldn't be going to Mars to wake up the Dragon, because with the Nightbringer he only needed a couple of curious humans to come along to wake him up but the Nightbringer was: a) Hungry and b.) Was only sleeping, the Dragon on the other hand isn't sleeping he's just in a coma state whilst he recharges. The Necron Ships could have also been sent by the Deciever to make the Mechanicum even more worried but that leads to the Question 'What is on Mars that the Deceiver is interested in?'. Now, he could just be interested in controlling the Mechanicum and confusing them or there could be some sort of Technology down there or even an inactive portal leading to the Dragons actual resting place, only a Necron Lord could really activate a Portal so they'd need to get one down there to open it, also remember that the Necrons ARE NOT A UNIFIED FORCE, they are a group of four faction and so the Deciever could be trying to get the Mechanicum to seal off the Labyrinth because he doesn't want the Dragon to wake up because the Dragon is immensly powerfull. Consider that the Nightbringer is only at a tenth of his usual strenght due to hunger and that he put some of his power into a huge Necron Tombship, he also built a wepaon which the Old Ones locked away in the Warp, so imagine a fully powered up Nightbringer (Something that could easily handle a titan) to the Dragon when he was active who could take on an entire battlefleet of Eldar and Old One ships designed to kill him and he still manged to survive! Also consider that if he did supp;y the Imperium with Technical Knowledge then he knows how the machines work and could easily take control of them, every Titan legion and ship around Mars at his command with Terra only a few miles away, that would be the end of the Emperor (Probably why GW doesn't want to do it!). So whilst the evidence that the Dragon IS on Mars there is NOT ANY DEFINATE PROOF. I hope I've been of help :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1246623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 a servant of the Dragon Your opinion would be a bit to biased as that:P What is definate is the Dragon brought about the Golden Age or technology for the Imperium of Man, it allowed Terminator armour, Titans and ships to be developed, this information was released by the Dragon into the minds of the Adeptus Mechanicus Techpreists, this either could have been directly by the Dragon if he was on Mars, simply because he's literally plugged into their power networks so when an Adept plugs himself up to a piece of Tech he suddenly has a brainwave about a new ship design that could work. If the Dragon is not awake then the same thing could have been done by one of his lords. Are there any real fluff evidence supporting this or is this only what you "think" happened? Also you fail to explain or describe the "stone men" and "iron men" of the golden age. As I see it fluff actuly supports the opposite with concrete words like the emperor being a man of logic and science and that he was the one (in the fluff) that pushed humanity forward towards the stars and the tech needed to get there. The emperor was the man responsible for the recognition of the need of super legions and the navigator genes as well as the invention and construction of early bio and technical advances that made this and their wargear possible. There are no hints about this but facts as it is de facto written. How about facts of the dragon planting thease thoughts in the collective minds of humanity? Care to show proof of fluff supporting this? And remember, actual fluff passages take preceedence over subtle hints and guesses. (Especially the navigator gene is proof of ctan not meddling with human tech as they have no idea about how the warp functions and works. Otherwise they wouldn´t have had such trouble against primitive spear armed eldar using psychic powers in the first place) The only logical solutuion I see (unless I have missed lots of fluff) is that the dragon somehow overtook or controlled the emperor despite his contact with the eldar at that time and that just does not cut it. which is why the Iron Hands became crazily good with Tech But this is not true so here your other theory is in trouble. IH are not objectful of tech and they welcome it but they still have no clue how to build plasma drives or grav engines. They get all of the complex tech from AM. So if Ferrus was corrupted (highly doubt that) and given knowledge about high tech (back in the days of all-powerful legions) then the IH would surely be given this knowledge or at least the means to manufacture their own tech rather then continue being dependent on a third party. Another thing that goes against the whole "dragon controlled the imperium plus the emperor with dreams" are the STC systems. Should the STC be an invention of the ctan then said ctan/necrons would do anything in their power to make sure the STC systems were never lost or if lost tehn to be replaced. As it is not all STC were lost and no one had the means and knowledge to rebuild or replace them after the tumultous times. Having an enemy controlled STC system that all of humanity depended on means in fact having total power of the human race. Any day you wanted to "take over" all you would do is to pull the collective plug on the STC (and all human tech built upon them) and everything, every fortress and ship and settlement and defensive system would collapse in an instant opening the doors wide open for any necron invasion/harvest/etc. This is not the fact and thus logic dictates that the STC were of the emperors origin and not of some super-dragon-of-utten-doom and that tells us the dragon didn´t control anything worth mentioning when humanity made their way to the stars. personally believe that he's on Mars but he easily could not be as I'm about to point out shortly. I too belive he is on mars but I choose to follow established fluff and comon sense rather then vague hints and that tells me he is hidden on mars but in control of absolutely nothing. Nor (as I already pointed out) was he ever in any control of humanities tech advances. Some loony walked into his catacombs and got corrupted by his dreams of twisted grandeour. Not surprisingly this loonie saw visions of defeat and a enslaved human race. Hell if I was a ctan I sure would dream about thease things myself *mwahaha* Nightbringer he only needed a couple of curious humans to come along to wake him up but the Nightbringer was: a) Hungry and b.) Was only sleeping, the Dragon on the other hand isn't sleeping he's just in a coma state whilst he recharges. Where does it say the dragon is in a coma and not imprisoned? Fluff tells of a war between the ctan where all but a few were killed. Now do you really think ctan A would want to see ctan B awoken, a potential deadly rival with nothing else on his mind then to see all otehr ctans dead and be left alone as teh absolute ruler? The deciever I belive might want the dragon awoken because it would be in it´s best interest to see them kill of each otehrs but the nightbringer would want to se the dragon dead and what is easyer then killing him while he sleeps? So all the corrupt AM and all teh subtle enquieries by the ctans about teh location of the dragon might very well be the two otehr ctans trying to learn of it´s presence to eitehr awake him (so that they can kill each others) or kill him while he is week. The ships sent to mars might very well be a suecide mission to see if there are any traces of the dragons as his "mind" might react to teh sudden presence of necron ships. Besides there are many theories about what could stand against a ctan, I think one such thing is the emperor, a being that can draw immense power from the warp (the thing that necrons and ctans have the greatest weakness against). This might be why Cypher is closing in on terra (especially after his encounter with the necrontyr). However a funny fact remains. Chaos would be the single greatest threat to the ctans as chaos IS warp, chaos on the otehr hand needs teh imperium to feed on so a ctan threatening the imperium is also threatening to starve chaos to death, thus chaos would want to see the imperium stand against the ctan and defeat them (saving their own "food" source). This might be the true motives of teh chaos pantheon for sending all those black crusades towards teh heart of the imperium...to simply unplug the throne from an ignorant imperium. Failing that this might explain why Cypher is protected by something that might very well be chaos power. On the other hand but still related to this the ctans must have realised that chaos (wasnt there during the old wars) is worse then the psychic race (eldar) once sent against them by the Slann and thus chaos is teh primary threat to the ctan due to their default nature. One wonders why the ctan does not concentrate tehir effort in fighting the chaos powers, if tehy truly did then they would give humanity the technoligical edge needed to combat the ruinous powers...before turning on humanity themselves. Lots of ifs and whats but still, fluff points towards the Emperor leading humanity in tech advances and not the dragon (although he is probably hiding on mars) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1246700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necrontyr Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 There are several sources of a C'tan and Necron lords speaking to other creatures through something like telepathy and with the Tech Adepts it wouldn't be that difficult, just like sending them an e-mail wiht a load of technical data in, there Deciever can alos place images in peoples minds, so why not the other C'tan? The Iron men and the Stone men of the Golden age.. Hmm, Not sure about that as I'm pretty sure all Necrons were still in stasis then, the Necorns awoke around the time of the Horus Heresy, taking into account when Manus (Okay, I admit he is probably incorruptible but you never know) encountered something but the earliest sightings were in the 39th millenium, so I think these could pssibly be rogue units, what are they from anyway, I've never heard mention of them before now. With the STCs, the Dragon, if he did bring around their construction, would have tried to protect them, but all this time he's in his coma with only a few of his lords out of Stasis, hardly enough to stop them from being lost, and who knows? perhaps he engineered their loss in order to start collapsing the Empire. In regards to the Coma state, it is not a coma as such but rather a state where he's recovering yet still incapacitated, he's not imprisoned as nothing could really hold an awake C'tan unless it was some crazy feat of engineering by the Old Ones but that's unlikely as they wouldn't have been able to get into his tomb with all his Legions guarding it. There is also evidence that he is recharging and not imprisoned (See 'Visions of a Sleeping God). The Deceiver would likely want the Dragon awake to help in the fight against the Nightbringer, the Nightbringer wouldn't be able to imprison the Dragon as by the time the Dragon had been shot the Enslavers were arriving and the C'tan and the Necrons went into stasis. The point about the ships acting as a probe is a valid theory, it would work and the Deciever would be the most likely candidate to have sent them, the Nightbringer doesn't really strategise, he works on the theory of 'just advance and kill everything'. The Necrons now do have a defence against the warp, the Pylons, these act as a psychic null and can hold back even a Warp storm, the Deciever has also created the Pariah Necron which is effectively a portable psychic null, the Nightbringer, as I've said previously, just likes to kill so he wouldn't startegise and think 'I must kill this enemy first because...', The Deciever is far more likely to do that and as he now has corrupted a large number of humans he can force them to put more energy into the war against Chaos. I doubt the Emperor came up with the tech, as you've said he specialised in Science, not engineering, this allowed him to develop the Geneseed, Navigator gene and the technology aroud the warp engines and sheilds, he could just retrofit them onto existing ships and there you go, a fully operational advanced ship. I don't see how he could have designed things like Titans, or Terminator armour, and who designed the Golden Throne? the Emperor was lying close to death and without him they built an incredibly advanced piece of Technology capable of sustaining his life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1246742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 while quite logical my friend, it is all still theory in that we still just dont know how or why the c'tan do things. or how they think. or that the dragon is on mars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1246750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyriel Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Like Idaho said, you have some nice thoughts but that´s basically it. Your ideas are not even hypotesies as those require scientificably valid facts to undrlie them (in this case explicitally written fluff). Your ideas are even less theories as those require reproducable results based on hard facts. There are several sources of a C'tan and Necron lords speaking to other creatures through something like telepathy This is far far from enough to claim the ctan steered and controlled human technical evolution. You on the other hand have been provided with fluff examlpes as well as logical and reasonable conclusions to quite the opposite. As long as you fail to do so yourself (a ctan telling some creature something telepathically does not equal controlling humanities tech advancement) the beliefs you have about the ctan are just that, beliefs. What I´m trying to say here is that we have some important things to consider when making a soup of all the ingredients: 1 hard fluff facts: -emperor led humanity through advancement -emperor produced navigator genes, somehting the ctan could not possibly have enough knowledge about -emperor had prosperous trade and contact with the eldar -eldar are paranoid about everything that can be considered ctan influened -ctan hating each others wanting to kill teh otehr one -humans in important, influential leading positions knowing about the ctans and even their locations (inquisition and those that control this organisation...at least one high lord of terra that is) -necrodermis bonding with marines without harming or corrupting them. 2 Fluff hints: -a corrupt AM having seen a ctan dream rants about the destruction of humanity. -a ctan hidden/asleep/imprisoned on mars. 3 Logical conclusions: -STC systems and their dissapearance pointing towards no ctan tech influence. -ferrus not being corrupted. -other ctans wanting to kill teh dragon rather then wake him up to full power. -chaos being anathema to the ctans. 4 Beliefs: -necron players wanting to make a chicken out of a feather beliving some hints, despite fluff as well as common sense going against it are more important and rewrite imperial history with this since it sounds cool. Do you have/is there any "1" or even "3" that actuly supports that the dragon sleeps on marsh, will wake up any second and kill of humanity and most importantly, have been controlling human tech evolution throughout history? If not then there simply is no case other then a simple "belief" to be wanting certain things to be what they are not. the Nightbringer wouldn't be able to imprison the Dragon as by the time the Dragon had been shot the Enslavers were arriving and the C'tan and the Necrons went into stasis. Yes but now the NB is loose while the dragon is still incapacitated and very voulnerable. Just this "small" matter with the exact location of the dragon. Thus all teh mystic enquires and contacts between the ctan and human pawns. Just destroying the hiding place will not solve the problem (as mars would have been obliterated by now). but all this time he's in his coma with only a few of his lords out of Stasis, hardly enough to stop them from being lost, and who knows? perhaps he engineered their loss in order to start collapsing the Empire. You contradict yourself. If teh ctan can place dreams in teh minds of humans and alledgely steer the entire human race down a certain technological evolutionary path then surely they could affect the leading AM caste to reinvent/refind the STC. The rest do not follow KISS. The suggestions I wrote are simplyer, more logical and also follow fluff and the fluff hints better, why cling to the other side then. The Necrons now do have a defence against the warp, the Pylons, 1 Is there hard fluff telling us that the necrons made the pylons (as there are fluff hints about the eldar being the builders) 2 Why needing the pariah gene if one has the pylons? 3 Why no more pylons? I doubt the Emperor came up with the tech, as you've said he specialised in Science, not engineering, Well you can doubt all you want but: 1 You still don´t have the fluff to support your belief 2 I have fluff that support that the emperor did it. Oh yes...and 3, there is no differance betwen science and engeneering, from a goal oriented point of view (and the emperor was that) they both go side by side. Engeneering builds on science, engeneerign cannot be corrupted without science being it first and fluff tells of the emperor to be uncorrupted not of ctans controlling the processes. I´m sorry but you simply don´t have any backing other then your beliefs. he could just retrofit them onto existing ships and there you go, a fully operational advanced ship. There might have been attempts (cortex cogitators) but that is not important, what is is that fluff tell of failed attempts and of teh conclusion that a living, sentient being with a special ability was needed to sucessfully steer a ship through the warp. ctan have vastly better tech, they don´t need to use the warp at all to travel fast. The old ones and slann didn´t need it either so what, did the ctans corrupt the old ones and teach them it too:P I don't see how he could have designed things like Titans, or Terminator armour, and who designed the Golden Throne? the Emperor was lying close to death and without him they built an incredibly advanced piece of Technology capable of sustaining his life. Here your theories fall apart even more: 1 The I ask why not? The man was a demi god with wisdom and IQ of such magnitude that we wouldn´t belive it plus he was the greatest psycher ever to walk the earth (alpha level psychers are probably ants compared to teh man himself), he held his ground against the greatest of the primarchs infused with the might of the whole chaos pantheon and still he defeated him...but no you choose the less logical approach of "how could he possibly have invented terminator armour). 2 Then I ask you again, where is your fluff support that the ctans "helped" the emperor create the titans? The eldar and orks have titans as well, did the ctan corrupt those as well? There is on the other hand fluff support of the emperor creating and/or leading the creation of the legions wargear. There is a time to follow fluff and there is a time to blindly ignore it all to follow ones own wishes, which one do you follow? 3 The throne was built before he became wounded and what makes you think the emperor needed a ctan advice to build the throne? It uses the warp and/or psychic force to sustain him, the ctans are hardly masters of the warp and psychic whichery. Again, there is no fluff, not even vague hints hidden in secondary fluff that even remotedly support the throne being built by the ctan. Besides the fluff on the "stone men" and the "iron men" have nothing to do with the necrons. The fact that you automatically assumed those to be related to necrons tell me that you need to read up some more on the old imperium fluff. As far as what little fluff tehre is about those concepts it points out to a few things. Humans constructed sentient machines (old fluff and also a brief appearance in an old 40k comic strip) and one of those was either normal humans tasked with artifice and art or sentient machines tasked with the same things and the other were robots with sentient AI tasked with the protection and work for human beings. There was a terrible war between the iron men (not necrons or ctan corrupted machines) and humans where all was lost and weapons of unimaginable power were unleashed on both sides but humans won in the end (first mention of STC starting to be lost is mentioned in accordance to this war...and also points out that the human AI servants were the ones responsible for the STC, humand stook science to a great level and constructed machines to take it even further up in other words). This together with fear and superstition after the HH, is also (fluff) in fact the very ancient and half forgotten reason as to why the AM are so paranoid about developing sentient artificial intelligence (not that the ctan hinder humanity) and advancing tech further. The STC was pure, thus things derived from the STC can alone be 100% trusted...everything else is heresy etc etc. Please follow established fluff rather then taking hints and wishful beliefs and turning the fluff 180. ...that or present your ideas with some solid backing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/91013-the-am-mars-the-void-dragon-and-necrons/page/8/#findComment-1246798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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