Darrell

You should be careful about dropping names like that. You never know who might come out of the woodwork! I was browsing through for some Executioners-related posts, as I do from time to time, and stumbled across this thread. I was quite surprised to see my name being mentioned, especially regarding something I had written what feels like ages ago. I'm honored that it inspired you, and I'm humbled that I was able to express the feelings of many people regarding the Imperial Fists. I haven't kept up with lore in quite a while, so I don't know how much of what I wrote it is still applicable, but I hope the Fists haven't changed too much from the way I envisioned them at the time. It has always been a dream of mine to write things that other people felt inspired by, and wanted to be a part of. Thank you for letting me live that dream last night. As for me, I cast my vote for the Executioners. I don't play them or paint them, but they are my favorite Chapter and one I would like to sit down and try my hand at writing about one day. I have a few pages in a notebook with ideas, as well as some scattered notes on my phone. A combination of the Imperial Fists with flavors of Solomon Kane and Conan the Cimmerian mixed in is just too much for me to turn down. It's nice to see the other Chapters represented--Celestial Lions, for instance, and to see at least six other people who share my appreciation for the Laughing Axemen. The VII will always be my Legion, though. I'm beyond touched that so many people enjoyed that novella I wrote about how I saw the Imperial Fists. It took me quite a while typing it up on a smart phone in the middle of the night and, while I would never suggest that my vision is the only vision, it's a great feeling that other people read it and took inspiration from it. I hope you are all doing well. May your shoulders forever be broad, and never know the defeat of a duty unfulfilled.

Your interpretation of those events is certainly more grimdark than mine, and probably fits a lot better into the atmosphere of 40K than my own. I like a little ray of hope in my 40K, because it helps emphasize just how terrible everything else is around you. It provides context for misery, whereas otherwise I just sort of get used to the grimdark and it doesn't affect me anymore. My perspective is also as a latecomer. The first 40K materials I read were the 3rd edition rulebook and Space Marines codex. I loved the art in it, and my interest in the lore lead me to the B&C. I never read about the Imperial Fists, though. They struck me as pretty boring and, while I stumbled across fluff for them now and then (Dorn's quote about approaching battle meakly, let my enemies cower at my advance and tremble at the sight of me, et c) I didn't look for it. It wasn't until I read the IA10 book with the Badab War, and the Executioners section specifically, that I bothered to go looking for information about Dorn and his Fists. I was actually disappointed when I saw the Executioners were Imperial Fists successors. I remember saying, "Man, if they were descended from ANYONE else, they'd be perfect." At the time, I was hoping they'd be from the Khan, because he was my favorite Primarch at the time (I still love him, but I love all Primarchs, now, for what they are). But, I figured I would deal with it, do some reading about Dorn and then try not to think about it lest I get sad. So, I went digging through the old IA, lots of Google searches, 40K wiki, Lexicanum, went through the B&C from top to bottom. There was a substantial amount on the Fists, but not a lot on Dorn. There still isn't. But, what I read I actually liked and it didn't take long to warm up to the Praetorian. He reminded me a lot of myself, in ways that were both good and bad. He seemed very human to me. Not humane, necessarily, but human. Maybe it was because I had gotten older, maybe it was because things had happened in my life to change me, maybe my tastes had matured, maybe I just got a better grasp of 40K fluff. Whatever the reason, I was able to really get into Dorn and his Legion even if I created quite a bit of my own narrative to do so. They just clicked with me, and now I wouldn't imagine the Laughing Axemen being descended from anyone but Rogal Dorn. Got off on a bit of a tangent there. Brotastic seems to agree with your broken mirror perspective, and I see the appeal in it. The idea of the Astartes limping on, broken, clinging to whatever shards of prior glory left to them (Maybe why Roma is so important to them). Continuing in their service, being maimed and beaten at every turn, but never being able to surrender because they're too stubborn to admit how far they've fallen. The Iron Cage is a huge incident, and a major milestone in both Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors history, but there's not a great deal written outside the IAs. Given what happened to the Fists when they went in, it demands some sort of rational explanation. One of the best, and worst, things anout 40K lore is when we are forced to come up with our own story to answer nagging questions. Brotastic, I agree that the period after the Emperor's near-death and the Iron Cage really shows a broad spectrum of emotions for Dorn. There's sadness, anger, guilt, doubt, regret, and even a certain degree of happiness when he found his purpose again. It does a lot to show who Dorn was, because he's exposed during that time. I don't understand why people deride Dorn for that. Granted, it was the lowest point for him in his life and it doesn't always portray him in the best light, but look what the poor guy went through. I can't imagine coming home from work and finding my oldest, most successful brother dead. My popular brother that was always good at everything is dead. My father's shattered body is breathing his last. Three family members murdered each other before I could get home in time to save them, and I'm the one that has to carry my father to his death bed. I get mad and cuss up a storm when I miss two 95% shots in a row on XCOM, I can't imagine how upset I would be in that scenario. I don't understand the lack of empathy for Dorn's character in that situation. I've always been torn on Dorn's fate. On the one hand, he's my favorite Primarch and I don't want him to be dead. He's awesome! Other Primarchs get to be alive, why can't mine be alive? On the other hand, I've never been able to come up with a good enough reason for Dorn to vanish if he was still alive and why he would hide from his sons. It fits his character, and makes a great story, if he gave his life for the Imperium he loved so deeply like the soldier he was. I like to think he was the last of the Loyalist Primarchs, that he lived long enough to see his brothers missing or dead and saw what a horrific place the Imperium was becoming. To think of him carrying on, stone-faced and determined, as he shouldered all those heavy burdens even as he slept upon his geandfather's cloak. But, on that Chaos ship, with bolter and blade in hand and surrounded by a mountain of dead, Rogal Dorn, for the first time in his life, laid down his burdens and took one breath as a man who knew no troubles. But, it saddens me and then I go back to "I bet he was too stubborn to die!" Even if it's not as good a story, the taste is not as bitter. Thank you to everyone for your compliments on my thoughts regarding who Dorn was. I was partially inspired by an old post on the B&C that was something along the lines of "What it means to be an Imperial Fist". I vaguely remember it, and it was a well-written piece, but has been lost to the Warp. I've looked everywhere on the Internet for it, but my searches have not been fruitful. My hope is I've helped Dorn become a more relatable character and, even if people don't like him, they will understand him (Or my version of him, anyway).

Recently, in a thread in the Horus Heresy section, I took an opportunity to put some thoughts to paper regarding Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists. I thought it would be appropriate to share it here, as well, and open it for discussion beyond the scope of the original thread. It is lengthy.

I am all about some Hammers of Dorn! I love the artwork for them, very dark and gritty, and your models are looking great to me! Love the black and bronze. Also a fan of the helmet crest. The Hammers of Dorn do everything better than the Ultrmarines, including their style!

I imagine him coming out of his transport like that and saying, "You heretics done goofed."

Your Fists are looking great! And it looks like they're packing a lot of heavy firepower, as is fitting. What are the models in black armor?

I would like to preface this by saying I have fallen in love with the Executioners. They're the first official chapter I've felt really strongly about; they have a good blend of honor, humanity, duty and savagery that I think makes them my ideal Chapter. It's a little strange loving an official Chapter, since I've long had a DIY streak in me, but that's alright. I'm reading through the IA 9 and 10 as we speak, as well as already having read through various internet wikis and sources about them, but have a few questions pertaining to the Executioners' role in the Badab War. I'm hoping to get a discussion going to find some answers. Firstly, it is clear from the beginning of their involvement that the Executioners do not approve of the Tyrant's motives and actions. They refuse to submit to his direct authority, they do not hold ground and they stick to military targets. The Chapter Master "retired" after giving the order to aid the Astral Claws, so no one else in the Chapter could be held responsible when the fallout came. I understand that the general theme here is repaying an old honor debt to the Astral Claws, but if they knew the cause was not just then why did the Executioners support the secessionists? Wouldn't the oath to the Emperor take precedent over the oath to Huron's predecessors? Secession isn't as bad as heresy, sure, but the Executioners claim that their sole purpose is to hunt down the foes of the Imperium (Another bit of fluff that I like about them). When Huron claims to no longer be part of the Imperium, would that not make them enemies? My second question, which is slightly related to the first, is what exactly did the Executioners know about Huron's intentions? Kane's interactions with the Salamanders during the Red Hour indicates that the Headsmen didn't know about the Tyrant's attempt to resurrect a Legion, or the Tyrant's heretical thoughts. But, did the Executioners know about the Tyrant's secession? On the one hand, it would make sense if the Executioners didn't know the Tyrant was now claiming independence of his system that they would support him. On the other hand, it would be odd to commit to a cause you did not fully try to understand. But, maybe it was a case of deliberately avoiding looking under rocks that are hiding things you don't really want to know about. Finally, is there any indication of the Executioner's strength in the present timeline? It's been almost 90 years since they began their penitent crusade and, without the ability to replenish their numbers, I'm curious to know if the Chapter still exists or has been lost to the annals of history. I hope some fellow lovers of the Emperor's Headsmen can give me some outside insight into what makes the Executioners tick.

Since your Chapter doesn't take well to spirituality, does this mean they no longer have Chaplains? If that is the case, then I could see them having a problem with the Ecclesiarchy since the Chaplains are the diplomatic nod from the Astartes, with the Ecclesiarchy offering the rosarius as a sign of good will. If your Chapter has neglected the practice, I could see tensions arising. Your article mentions that recruits are taken during "early childhood"; how early? If your Astartes can't be bothered to take time away from training to pray, I seriously doubt they'd be interested in taking time away to raise children. Planetary culture could easily be drilled out of the neophytes during their training period, so I don't really see the need to make your Chapter a group of foster parents for their recruits until they're finally ready for implants and early Scout training. The Mechanicus would probably be interested to know how such degradation of their geneseed has occurred so quickly. If the Raven Guard mutation "only" takes years to develop, while the Falcons are turning white in hours, that creates a concern. Why has their geneseed further mutated?

The Chapter's theme is interesting and pretty solid. The article is a bit on the short side but, as my own preference, I have no issues with an IA that is short while also conveying the concept of the Chapter. I'd much rather have an interesting article with 1,000 words over an article with 10,000 words that I have to slog through in order to finish. I'd much rather leave people wanting more than tire my reader out on the first go; if people want to know more, you can always write stories or create sidebars or manufacture addendum articles on more specific topics related to the Chapter. However, I do find the article lacking a certain something. As I said, the theme is good but as a whole it's lacking a feeling of "oomph". There's nothing that really grabs me about the Infinity Knights. I think the core could use a bit of a workout in order to satiate that need. Let me begin by discussing a few concerns I have with the basic idea of organ swapping. It seems that it would create a lot of problems, and would be an extremely difficult process. Today, medical science struggles to implant organs between closely-related family members. I can't imagine how hard it would be to transplant an entire limb into another person whose only relation is that they grew up on the same planet. Also, consider that the Space Marine physique is extremely adept at eliminating contaminants; these include things like poisons and disease, but new organs and limbs would also be considered an invading entity and an Astartes' immune system would do everything it could to fight it. Granted, science in the 41st millennium is more advanced than our own. However, if transplants such as this could take place then I wonder why the surgery wouldn't be used with greater frequency over artificial implants. To me, this would be a much better way instead of mechanical alternatives since you wouldn't have to worry about things like constant maintenance, power failure or finding another way to keep the power armor sealed in a vacuum. Perhaps, instead of replacing every part you could focus more on transplanting Astartes organs (Second Heart, Third Lung, et cetera) which are designed to be grown and placed into different bodies. These are also what makes them Astartes to begin with, so they are trading off the strongest parts of themselves as opposed to just an arm or leg which any mortal can supply. I also question the concept of "Wandering Companies". If the Chapter feels a need to roam while also keeping an eye on their home territory, they could simply do what most Chapters would do in that situation; rotate Battle Companies between duties. Sometimes the Second and Third could be out running around, then they could switch off with the Fourth and Fifth while they replenish casualties and restock equipment. The concept of the Wandering Companies, as they stand now, seems unnecessarily complicated. The entire First Company has been disbanded for a reason that's not really explained, you end up taking the Fourth and Fifth anyway as Wanderers and you cut yourself down to only two Reserve companies. That means casualties are going to be much more difficult to replace, especially since Tactical Squads do the brunt of the fighting and now you only have half as many to back them up. If you switch to a more simple concept of just rotating standard Battle Companies, it removes a lot of the confusing explanation and justification you have now and you can focus more on why they use these Wandering Companies. At first, I didn't much like the idea of a general degradation in geneseed. It seemed thrown in at last minute and begs for more information. However, the more I think about the concept the more I like it. This is Roboute geneseed we're talking about and straight from the Ultramarines themselves; this is perhaps the most stable geneseed of all the Primarchs. Yet, here we see degradation across the board; not just the loss of one or two organs that don't really matter (If you believe the Imperial Fists) or just make your skin a funny color (Raven Guard and Salamanders). Every single one of the geneseed organs is losing stability, which would include things like the Black Carapace which, if it fails, means you don't have Space Marines. You have really ugly Storm Troopers. This, I feel, could go a long way to giving your Chapter more "oomph" and adding some character. Right now, I'm imagining a fission growing within the Infinity Knights. On the one side, I see the Chapter Master and Captains and Chaplains who are very concerned about the history of the Chapter, and their rituals and traditions. On the other side, I see the Apothecaries (and perhaps Techmarines, on behalf of the Mechanicus) who are very concerned about the future of the Chapter, and retaining practicality and ensuring the purity of the geneseed. As this degradation continues, the Apothecaries begin to speak against this tradition (Damning, since they are the ones required to do it). This is, of course, met with skepticism and a wave of the hand from command elements of the Chapter. Tensions are mounting and a storm of revolution is brewing on the horizon. Lines are becoming drawn, oaths are being made. Which is more important, the Chapter's future or the Chapter's past? Infinity extends in both directions, after all. This would make your article something of a snap-shot of your Chapter in the midst of change. Change is not something we see much in IAs, at least not in the present tense. Usually the Chapter is functioning the same way now as it has for centuries or millennia and, if change ever did occur then it happened a long, long time ago and no one worries about it now. You could give your article a bit more life in this regard, as opposed to the stagnant nature of most articles we see on the Liber. A poster before me mentioned something about a concept to Nurgle and, if you decided to pursue that, you would have a certain theme of stagnation versus change going on as well. Though, personally I don't think the Nurgle connection is necessary since the Imperium is perfectly capable of being stagnant and unchanging on its own. I think something along those lines would inject a lot of interest into your Infinity Knights, and really build your Chapter as a three-dimensional entity rather than "organ swappers" which is what most of the article deals with now. The facts are there and the concept is there. You just need the depth to give it life.

Here is the link to my Judicators.

I think it has a lot of potential. Showcasing a bit of the serfs shows how much work it takes to run a Chapter and, while too many details would bore just about anyone, it would hint at the empire within the Castigators that the serfs run. You could have a large administration of serfs running things, overseeing the needs of the Chapter and the needs of the serfs themselves. Serfs changing positions, new serfs needing to be appointed, handling the more mundane affairs of the Chapter as it goes on campaign. It's like a miniature version of the Imperium's bureaucracy; scaled down, but still dizzying in its complexity. I was wondering what the relationship between the Castigators and serfs may be like, but the idea of a serf-run empire within the Chapter might lead the Castigators to ignore the mortals amongst them for the most part. I'm sure most of the marines would get dizzy every time they think about the sheer amount of paperwork flying by. I like the concept of different groups of serfs handling different sections within the Chapter have varying types of rituals. It allows for a lot of potential superstitious, gothic ceremonies that are one of my favorite aspects of 40K fluff. Appeasing the spirits of the cafeteria machines looks completely different from appeasing the massive fleet guns, but both are equally complex and important to their respective guardians. If you go with a caste system, I could see some groups who have served the various Captains or Chapter Masters down through the centuries. Something like a family of butlers who have loyally served the office down through the ages. Just one more aspect of the Castigators background that gives them such feeling and depth. The Chapter itself, its history, the Losancan mutant hunters, the serfs and how all of them are tied together under one banner (Though, under that banner are many different groups with different ideals; zealots and moderates, hunters who cross to the day side and protectors of the settlements in the twilight, the different sections of the castes. It mimics the Imperium in a lot of ways, showing the face of a flawless monolith whose insides are riddled with cracks and divides).

By any means necessary, is probably the answer. How they are eliminated isn't particularly important; a psyker is taken away and never seen again. Maybe they put a bolt through his head, maybe they throw him in the power generator, maybe they put him an air lock and fire him out into space. All that matters is they are purged from the Chapter for their mutation.

I think there's a lot of healthy irony in the fact that, within the Castigators, the Librarium hunts down and eliminates psykers within their ranks. Remember, though, that it's not just a matter of hunting psykers; they also provide tactical advice, record histories and they can fight in warfare. They are still Battle Brothers, after all, just like Techmarines and Apothecaries. You can't expect a Chapter serf to fight like an Astartes, only an Astartes can fight like an Astartes. The Chaplain already has other duties like tending to the spiritual purity of their brethren in addition to running the Reclusiam and perhaps tending to certain rituals. Apothecaries must collect geneseed and watch over newly implanted organs. Why add responsibility to them when the Librarium still serves a valid purpose even without psykers. Remember there's also a school of thought within the Imperium that says power is better when distributed amongst seperate parties, instead of allowing one person to handle multiple duties. As for psykers being used by other Chapters, remember that the Emperor specifically spoke against the practice of sorcery and condemned Magnus and his Thousand Sons for it. There are exceptions, like Navigators, which the Emperor sanctioned but he was not as approving with Librarians. The Castigators are simply following the Emperor's advice. As for Codiciers being looked down upon, I believe Mol wrote a story a while back that focused on a Codicier with a Castigators attachment and he seemed to encounter a lot of hostility from certain individuals. The Castigators are extremely bigoted and opinionated, and even the title "Codicier" carries connotations of the witch that they abhor. Something akin to the stigma that is now attached to the title of "Warmaster".

Minor correction on behalf of the good Commissar; Ramus is Captain of the 6th Tactical Reserve, Tigris is Captain of the 8th Assault Reserve. There are a few people working on Castigator Companies, I believe. They've drawn a lot of attention recently and rightfully so!

Since making Tigris a zealot is the obvious choice, it may not be the best choice. I could see Tigris being a moderate simply because his tactics must be more refined in order to preserve the lives of his marines. He could be a level-headed, thorough tactician as Mol mentioned earlier. Just because he likes to punch a man's head off doesn't mean he have to froth at the mouth while he's doing it. Conversely, I could see Malus being a zealot since he has a bit more room for aggression in a more supportive environment. His armor or weaponry is covered in kill marks of vehicles from his latest trip to the field and he despises the tainted machine spirits that have been 'mutated' by servitude to traitors or xenos. Perhaps that's a bit too extreme and Techmarine-ish, but it's just a possibility to express a more zealous attitude. I don't like to think of any Castigator as being "Liberal", either. I would imagine that the most Liberal Castigator is akin to a more zealot-inclined Moderate of another Chapter. I think Moderate and Zealot work well enough and says a bit about the Chapter in that there are no Liberals. The difference between a moderate and a zealot is the former can work with other Chapters without letting their prejudices consume them entirely. There are no Castigators that say "Well, maybe those mutants and psykers aren't so bad...", which is part of why the Castigators are so fun to read about. As far as heraldry goes, I'm afraid I can't be of much use there. It's never really been one of the things I've tried to create for a Chapter.