The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal

[WolfGuardVortek]

Perhaps it is referring to the Assassin Temples.

[mrun0riginal]

Though shouldn't those S's be changed to Z's?

 

Not If he's English.

[Honda]

first off, I just finished duct taping my head back together after the Iron Hands article, and now my head has 'sploded (technical term) again.

 

But please, do accept my applause for a well written article that I've been waiting on with baited breath (where did that phrase ever come from?) since I first stumbled on the DH.

 

Interesting comments from others as well. Rather than see the AL as ruthless, perhaps they are just the ultimate pragmatists in that the end does justify the means.

 

I've already done mental images of camo schemes and look forward to getting back to my DH modeling thread.

 

+++ SPOILER ALERT +++

 

One observation from "Legion" though, I thought it rather interesting how the AL integrated psyker ops with their overall masking plan. When I get to the codex part, I was planning on adding a Primaris psyker to their FOC...along with some interesting twists. It "might" be worth adding a bit somewhere mentioning this, as it's just another dimension to attack an opponent from.

 

Anyway, thank you very much for all your efforts and for making 2011 a complete success...in January no less. :P

[kamikazebob]

Hi. Just registered on this site because I am a big fan of the alternate heresy. One major issue has been bothering me. Why is Erebus good in this altverse?

[Aurelius Rex]

Hi kamikazebob, welcome to the B&C. :)

 

Because Kor Phaeron died before he could corrupt anyone over to Chaos, and Horus convinced the Emperor to take it easy with Lorgar worshipping Him, the Word Bearers, including Erebus, were never turned to the path of Chaos and general evil villany. It seems without that bad influence, Erebus turned out to be an OK guy. ^_^

 

I have not read The First Heretic yet... so if A D-B revealed other info beyond this that he was a bad seed from the start, then there must have been another un-mentioned event which straightened him out in this alternate universe.

 

@Honda - Glad it didn't disappoint, and am really looking forward to seeing your take on the Alpha Legion in miniature form. As I have been reflecting on the article, I have decided to make a couple of additions and extra colourpieces, but I suspect they will have to wait until the part 2 PDF as I am currently absorbed with the Dark Angels article. :D

[kamikazebob]

Hi kamikazebob, welcome to the B&C. :)

 

Because Kor Phaeron died before he could corrupt anyone over to Chaos, and Horus convinced the Emperor to take it easy with Lorgar worshipping Him, the Word Bearers, including Erebus, were never turned to the path of Chaos and general evil villany. It seems without that bad influence, Erebus turned out to be an OK guy. ;)

 

I have not read The First Heretic yet... so if A D-B revealed other info beyond this that he was a bad seed from the start, then there must have been another un-mentioned event which straightened him out in this alternate universe.

 

I just cannot see Erebus ever being a good guy. I had always thought that Erebus was originally a Chaos worshipper before joining the legion. At least in the Horus Heresy series you never see him "turning" like Abaddon and Lucius or the rest. I like what you did with Fabius Bile. Even though the Emperors Children remained loyal, Fabius stayed in character, had to exceed his limits as apothecary with his mad experiments and went on to corrupt the Raven Guard. I just don't see Erebus who is the master villain in the HH books ending up as just the good preacher who exorcised Horus. Like, I don't know if you're going to do something similar with Typhon (maybe he tries to trap the Death Guard in the warp but fails?). It's still good work though.

 

Personally I did not like The First Heretic. The Emperor is made out to be really stupid in the first scene in Olympia (the city that gets destroyed, I forget the name). I am also unwilling to believe Lorgar/chaplains/the legion would be willing to accept worship that involves sacrifice/evil (e.g. Davin ritual)/daemons, even if it is to the "true Gods." Also, the Custodes sent to watch the legion are really bad at their jobs. It's unconvincing. The emperor/Malcador would not do what he did with Olympia and if he did, then he deserved what he got with the Word Bearers betraying him.

[fritzallmighty]

... then he deserved what he got with the Word Bearers betraying him.

This

[Lord_Caerolion]

The emperor/Malcador would not do what he did with Olympia and if he did, then he deserved what he got with the Word Bearers betraying him.

 

...That's pertty much what makes the Heresy so tragic, that it all could have been avoided if the Emperor realised that utterly destroying and ridiculing a Primarchs life work and entire mentality might not make the Primarch more than a little upset. As I've said in other topics, it's the equivalent of Jesus coming back, then telling the Pope that everything he's done is a complete waste of time, that he's a failure, and everything he's ever done was wrong, but expecting him to just get over it entirely.

 

It's been in the background since the Index Astartes, if not before. First Heretic only added the destruction of a city to it.

[AGPO]

As I've said in other topics, it's the equivalent of Jesus coming back, then telling the Pope that everything he's done is a complete waste of time, that he's a failure, and everything he's ever done was wrong, but expecting him to just get over it entirely.

 

I'd pay to be a fly on the wall for that encounter

[Ubermensch Commander]

As I've said in other topics, it's the equivalent of Jesus coming back, then telling the Pope that everything he's done is a complete waste of time, that he's a failure, and everything he's ever done was wrong, but expecting him to just get over it entirely.

 

I'd pay to be a fly on the wall for that encounter

 

And yet that analogy is woefully inaccurate when you consider that it is more like"Science" Jesus being alive the whole time, kicking down ALL temples while saying "do not under any circumstances establish a church, particularly not one to me." He even sends out messengers to spread the good word of Not-Worship. Religion is kind of one of his hot buttons. He makes his intentions clear and sets up establishments to keep it going. Then having one willfully delusional disciple, when ALL the other Apostles (see Primarchs) understood they were establishing an atheistic empire. There is no pope (The Ecclesiarchy does not exist at this time.) and there is no dead icon of worship.

 

It was not a surprise that the Emperor did not want to worshiped. In First Heretic, Lorgar rails against the Big E while acknowledging the Emperor had denied his divinity. The Emperor had explicitly denied his divinity to Lorgar, in person, prior to the chastisement. Not to mention if Lorgar had been paying attention in class, he might have noticed the rational and empirical tone and message being spread.

 

The Emperor expected Lorgar to not be a friggin idiot. Not an unreasonable request.

The only tragedy is the repercussions of Lorgar's betrayal of everything he swore oaths to follow and uphold. Oh, his world view is shattered? Suck it up, punk, rather than attempting to condemn the universe to fall under the veil of corrupting energies and madness.

[Culebras]

Can we please try and keep the First Heretic discussion limited to another thread?

 

Focusing back on the Dornian Heresy, I have a question for Aurelius. From reading the Legio Imprint, it sounds as if the Chaos Legions residing in the Eye have not engaged in anything equivalent to the Black Crusades until recently. Also, with the Iron Hands and the Ultramarines not having been corrupted by the forces of chaos and the introductory fluff indicating that the salamanders have come to "despise the petty excesses of the Chaos Gods and their servants," that leaves the total number of traditional chaos marines limited to just 6 legions; Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Legion, and White Scars. Even so, the entries for the Raven Guard and the Blood Angels deliberately state they did not take a daemon world within the eye for themselves but remained mobile and fleet based. Now even if the Salamanders took up residence on a couple planets, that still means there are only about five legions who have the Eye as their primary base.

 

So this leads back to the question of the crusades. Are there simply not enough legions within the eye to generate the critical mass of Marines and demons for the military action seen in Abbadon's Black Crusades or is there something else at work? There is a continual emphasis on the Eye as being THE center of Chaos activity in the galaxy, but with only four legions (five if the salamanders live there) taking up residence, I feel like I am missing a piece of the puzzle. If the Black Legion isn't launching crusades, why is there so much worry? Currently, there has been no described instance of an Red Corsair style force or grand company turning traitor, so that only leaves the legions mentioned in the History.

 

I suppose, if we take the mirror universe idea to its logical conclusion, then perhaps Abbadon's Black Templars launched their own "white" crusades into the Eye but were repelled each time. That idea of this impenetrable stronghold, a sort of Chaos version of Troy, was one theory I had but it didn't have the same sort of menace I get when I think of the cannon universe Eye.

 

Of course, I could simply be reading too much into this.

[Allfather1]

Focusing back on the Dornian Heresy, I have a question for Aurelius. From reading the Legio Imprint, it sounds as if the Chaos Legions residing in the Eye have not engaged in anything equivalent to the Black Crusades until recently. Also, with the Iron Hands and the Ultramarines not having been corrupted by the forces of chaos and the introductory fluff indicating that the salamanders have come to "despise the petty excesses of the Chaos Gods and their servants," that leaves the total number of traditional chaos marines limited to just 6 legions; Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Legion, and White Scars. Even so, the entries for the Raven Guard and the Blood Angels deliberately state they did not take a daemon world within the eye for themselves but remained mobile and fleet based. Now even if the Salamanders took up residence on a couple planets, that still means there are only about five legions who have the Eye as their primary base.

 

So this leads back to the question of the crusades. Are there simply not enough legions within the eye to generate the critical mass of Marines and demons for the military action seen in Abbadon's Black Crusades or is there something else at work? There is a continual emphasis on the Eye as being THE center of Chaos activity in the galaxy, but with only four legions (five if the salamanders live there) taking up residence, I feel like I am missing a piece of the puzzle. If the Black Legion isn't launching crusades, why is there so much worry? Currently, there has been no described instance of an Red Corsair style force or grand company turning traitor, so that only leaves the legions mentioned in the History.

 

I suppose, if we take the mirror universe idea to its logical conclusion, then perhaps Abbadon's Black Templars launched their own "white" crusades into the Eye but were repelled each time. That idea of this impenetrable stronghold, a sort of Chaos version of Troy, was one theory I had but it didn't have the same sort of menace I get when I think of the cannon universe Eye.

 

Of course, I could simply be reading too much into this.

I think that Sigismund isn't as a strong leader as Abbadon as he couldn't even hold the Imperial Fists together after the Heresy.

Luther seems as the more logical replacment for Abbadoy as he killed the Lion and made sure that the Space Wolves survive to this day.

But I think your right that the Eye doesn't hold enough forces for Black crusades as only the Black legion, White scars, space wolves and maybe the Salamanders (although I think they would fit better in the Maelstorm) live there.

 

If Abbadon launched crusades into the eye I think they were reppeled by the Black Legion as they are still masters of siege warfare and have the poppulation of Cadia to back them up. The Legions in the Eye would mostly likely send reinforcments if Cadia is attacked or they would just fight there for the thrill of battle (Space Wolves and White Scars).

[Aurelius Rex]

Can we please try and keep the First Heretic discussion limited to another thread?

Agree, Culebras. :) I was worried that it was getting a little OT.

 

Regarding the questions of the Eye of Terror and the dispositions of the Chaos Legions, this is a very timely point as I am examining just these things while working on the Dark Angel article. I hope you will understand if I am not too forthcoming so as not to put out spoilers to the future IA's, but it is very fair to say that Chaos - or at the least the number of legions that went to Chaos - are far less numerous in this reality. They are also a lot less coordinated - Sigismund can't even keep his own legion from fragmenting until recently, and the Salamanders... they don't play well with anyone! :devil: There has been a resurgence among the Black Legion of late, but more of that in their IA.

 

That's not to say the Imperium gets things all its own way, of course. Both the Alpha Legion and Iron Warrior IA's have hinted that even their best efforts have been unable to contain Ultramar Segmentum's expansion, and that fighting on these two main fronts has seen them getting pushed back time and again by the Ultramarines.

 

As to the Eye... it is a really handy bolthole for the Chaos Legions to retreat to without fear that the Imperium can follow. Seeing how thinly stretched the Imperium is, if the Chaos forces get their act together they could do a massive amount of damage.

 

Allfather is onto something with Luther... He is a slippery customer, but despite good relations with other chaos legions such as the Space Wolves, has his own agenda to pursue beyond leadership of a military coalition. Hmmm, he's a crafty one! B)

 

Oops! I may have said too much! :blush:

 

Later,

Aurelius.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Can we please try and keep the First Heretic discussion limited to another thread?

Agree, Culebras. :) I was worried that it was getting a little OT.

 

Regarding the questions of the Eye of Terror and the dispositions of the Chaos Legions, this is a very timely point as I am examining just these things while working on the Dark Angel article. I hope you will understand if I am not too forthcoming so as not to put out spoilers to the future IA's, but it is very fair to say that Chaos - or at the least the number of legions that went to Chaos - are far less numerous in this reality. They are also a lot less coordinated - Sigismund can't even keep his own legion from fragmenting until recently, and the Salamanders... they don't play well with anyone! :devil: There has been a resurgence among the Black Legion of late, but more of that in their IA.

 

That's not to say the Imperium gets things all its own way, of course. Both the Alpha Legion and Iron Warrior IA's have hinted that even their best efforts have been unable to contain Ultramar Segmentum's expansion, and that fighting on these two main fronts has seen them getting pushed back time and again by the Ultramarines.

 

As to the Eye... it is a really handy bolthole for the Chaos Legions to retreat to without fear that the Imperium can follow. Seeing how thinly stretched the Imperium is, if the Chaos forces get their act together they could do a massive amount of damage.

 

Allfather is onto something with Luther... He is a slippery customer, but despite good relations with other chaos legions such as the Space Wolves, has his own agenda to pursue beyond leadership of a military coalition. Hmmm, he's a crafty one! B)

 

Oops! I may have said too much! ;)

 

Later,

Aurelius.

 

No no, you have said just enough to keep stringing us along, you clever fiend!

It will be very interesting to see how Luther is played out in the Dornian Heresy. I still question if he still fell to Chaos as in the Horus Heresy. Granted, we have seen nothing to the contrary, per se, but I am curious whether a Cypher-esque ambiguity will be thrown onto his character in the upcoming Dark Angels article.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the Ultramarines expansionism. Very cool stuff.

 

Salamanders! Yes, please! Looking forward to more of your works.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Okay, I will ask this again, because it slipped under the radar: I'm curious what are those 'certain highly specialised Imperial organisations' mentioned in the Alpha Legion IA?

 

On the current discussion: Well, in the original 40K universe Abaddon is'nt the sharpest knife in the drawer (for explanation see Soul Hunter), so why should Sigismund be any better? He's not even a warmaster... So it sounds logical that he's not the flavour of the party.

One interesting question: Are the Ultramarines also targeted by the Black Crusades? Furthermore, are they just sitting on their butts and wait till the archenemy strikes, or do they organise some kind of attack against Chaos too (the second option seems to suit their nature more than the first)?

[Aurelius Rex]

Okay, I will ask this again, because it slipped under the radar: I'm curious what are those 'certain highly specialised Imperial organisations' mentioned in the Alpha Legion IA?

Ah, sorry about that. The mention is kept deliberately vague specifically to keep it mysterious. It is much more compelling to allow room for speculation than actually state it... and if there is one legion who fits this kind of ambiguity, it is the Alpha Legion. <_<

 

One interesting question: Are the Ultramarines also targeted by the Black Crusades? Furthermore, are they just sitting on their butts and wait till the archenemy strikes, or do they organise some kind of attack against Chaos too (the second option seems to suit their nature more than the first)?

The Ultramarines are attacked and raided by the Chaos Legions just as the Imperium is... they are just a lot further from the Eye of Terror so they are insulated from some of it. Because of this, the Ultramarines find it difficult to get over to attack the Eye of Terror (or planets on its outskirts) as they would be under constant attack by the Imperium on the way there. The last time Guilliman suggested sending an Ultramar fleet through Imperial space to attack the Ruinous Powers in their lair he ended up getting ambushed, critically wounded and shipped back to Terra in stasis as a prisoner. (At least that is their perspective. However, the Alpha Legion say it was an attempt to get a fleet close enough to attack Terra.)

 

So the Ultras are probably not too keen to try that again. They prefer to attack any Chaos forces they come across, and are probably quite pleased if Chaos attacks make the Imperium redirect forces away from their borders with Ultramar. :woot:

[Culebras]

The Ultramarines are attacked and raided by the Chaos Legions just as the Imperium is... they are just a lot further from the Eye of Terror so they are insulated from some of it. Because of this, the Ultramarines find it difficult to get over to attack the Eye of Terror (or planets on its outskirts) as they would be under constant attack by the Imperium on the way there. The last time Guilliman suggested sending an Ultramar fleet through Imperial space to attack the Ruinous Powers in their lair he ended up getting ambushed, critically wounded and shipped back to Terra in stasis as a prisoner. (At least that is their perspective. However, the Alpha Legion say it was an attempt to get a fleet close enough to attack Terra.)

 

So the Ultras are probably not too keen to try that again. They prefer to attack any Chaos forces they come across, and are probably quite pleased if Chaos attacks make the Imperium redirect forces away from their borders with Ultramar. :)

 

Since you are rewriting imperial history, it might also be feasible to alter the course of some of the Ultramarine battles. Perhaps one of their victories in the normal universe failed in the alternate, resulting in a new demon world or area like the Maelstrom. You could tie that in as part of a fluff piece for either the Dark Angels or Black Legion. I don't know much about M'kar the Reborn ( the demon prince mentioned in the space marine codex), but he could be a viable candidate for some mischief.

 

Also, have you given any thought to fitting in less famous groups like the Astral Claws, Crimson Fists, or Lamenters. I was trying to figure out what angle Huron Blackheart might fit under since there really isn't precedence for a chaos legion "turning loyal." Also, I was thinking of the poor Lamenters and how the battle with the Tyranids might have gone differently if they had invaded a planet over run by Nurgle Blood Angels. And I'm sure Daemon Prince Kantor will make an appearance at some point. :)

[Dominicus]

As stated by Culebras, the DH is an alternate universe, and this is a rewrite of Imperial history; I would pay to see a renegade Calgar and Cassius, leading half of the secessionist Ultramarines into worship of the Chaos Gods, wi Tigurius as their sorcerer, and Sicarius goes all Khornate on everyone.

 

That would be epic, but not ideal.

 

Just a floating idea in a tired mind....

[The Son of Russ]

can you write one up for the space wolves

[Razorwind1101]

@The_Son_of_russ go grab Volume 1 of the Legio Imprint (from HERE) the Space Wolves are in there.

 

On my own comments, this is a fantastic and facinating set of articles, and I do realy want to paint up a few marines from these alternate legions... mostly a Thousand Son, based on the excelent artwork in the PDF.

 

It would be nice if the SMpainter images for the other legions could be posted here too.. that is if they actually exist.

 

Great work anyways Aurelius Rex, looking forward to the next one.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Any progress?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

what kelbor said, dying to read death guard! beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep..................................................

[Aurelius Rex]

The Dark Angels IA will be posted April 1st. ;)

 

However, the Death Guard one (along with the Black Legion and Black Templars ones) will only be released when the Part 2 PDF is released. In case I have not mentioned, it will be Dark Angels, Night Lords, Salamanders posted here, and then the part 2 PDF which will pull together the last nine IA's - the six that had been posted - IW, IF, AL, DA, NL and Sals ant then BT, BL and DG. ;)

[ANGRYMARINE]

The Dark Angels IA will be posted April 1st. ;)

 

However, the Death Guard one (along with the Black Legion and Black Templars ones) will only be released when the Part 2 PDF is released. In case I have not mentioned, it will be Dark Angels, Night Lords, Salamanders posted here, and then the part 2 PDF which will pull together the last nine IA's - the six that had been posted - IW, IF, AL, DA, NL and Sals ant then BT, BL and DG. :lol:

 

Any idea of a rough release date for Part 2?

 

Also, I don't think anyone here has thought of the fact that Lion el'Johnson could still be alive and loyal to the Emperor; maybe leading a parallel version of the Fallen, only they aren't bad. Am I on to something?

[Repentant Son]

Dear god, my Thousand Suns have a chance to be the good guys i knew they were meant to be :angry: i also love the direction you took with the Raven guard, my other favorite. I'm liking the direction this is taking, looking forward to more!! :RTBBB: