Gondlir the Wandbearer Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 People seem to want to downplay Bjorn's preheresy combat skills while leaving Kharne's at their post-heresy skills. Preheresy: Eh, I dunno. It's possible for pure savage ferocity to overcome a more controlled warrior, but one as obviously skilled and experienced as Bjorn? I don't know. Also, Kharne was killed in the Siege of Terra, by his equals, other marines. Bjorn was 'merely' severely wounded by a Primarch - and got his own back later, during the defense of the Fang. Based on this, I'd have to say Bjorn. Postheresy: Last I checked, Kharne's Gorechild can't harm a Dreadnought. Bjorn wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Postheresy: Last I checked, Kharne's Gorechild can't harm a Dreadnought. Bjorn wins. Kharne is Str5, 6 on the charge, and he has 2D6 penetration. Bjorn dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Quote chaos SM codex: "In Addition Ghorechild is treated as a powerweapon, and against vehicles, adds an extra D6 to Khârn's armour penatration rolls" So he has 2 D6 armour penetration, so I think he will be able to harm a dread.. I'm not sure what Killed Khârn at the siege, they just found them somewhere on top of a pile of body's.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I'm not sure what Killed Khârn at the siege, they just found them somewhere on top of a pile of body's.. True. I don't think Khârn has actually died, just been wounded badly. A lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You do relise Khârn pre hersey was not that badass. He was terran born and rather civilised, So prehersey he was not the butcher he later turned into so Bjorn would Win. Khârn got killed at the seige of Terra by his equals, Not by a Primarch, Bjorn was mortally wounded by a Primarch but still survived without any chasy Trickery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Khârn had the implants like every other World Eater. In combat, he'd still be a ferocious killing machine. I'm not sure what company he Captained but he was badass enough to be Angron's right hand man. Bjorn escaped death by being put in a Sarcophagus. So they both "died" once. And there is absolutely nothing stating Khârn has "died" since. Even if he has, how many times did Bjorn's dreadnought get crippled over the years? As long as the Sarcophagus survives, he can be put into any dreadnought. Besides, the voting is long done. Khârn won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Khârn had the implants like every other World Eater. In combat, he'd still be a ferocious killing machine. I'm not sure what company he Captained but he was badass enough to be Angron's right hand man. Bjorn escaped death by being put in a Sarcophagus. So they both "died" once. And there is absolutely nothing stating Khârn has "died" since. Even if he has, how many times did Bjorn's dreadnought get crippled over the years? As long as the Sarcophagus survives, he can be put into any dreadnought. Besides, the voting is long done. Khârn won. Your points are rock solid so long as you don't think about them. Khârn had implants, big whoop. He was Captain and right-hand man because he complimented Angron, this we know, but we really have not many testaments to his own combat proficiency. Bjorn hasn't died, bottom line. Khârn has. See it how you want, that's the literal view of it. Yes voting is long done, but it was highly contested and your points hold water like a paper bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Was Bjorn not interred into a dreadnought because he had...died? Or had been about to? as far as I know thats the only time marines are placed into dreads. Khârn, stormed the breach in the Great Palace, and butchered a disgusting amount of loyal space marines before succumbing to his wounds, tbf I'd have to see he was one of the biggest bad-asses of the post heresy/heresy era and he was captain of the 8th Assault company btw. Now, World Eaters themselves, were devastating in single combat, but a world eaters assault company? Cmon. And since he was Angrons personal equerry, I have to assume he was probably one of the best/powerful/clever warriors in his legion. It would not just be because he complimented Angron, look at all the other peopel who filled similar roles Abaddon Eidolon Sigismund Kor Phareon You would also place Khan in that bracket, he is the world eaters equivalent I think people get a little confused about the World Eaters, it wasnt just pure save ferocity. I'm sure they were the one legion noone would have wanted to fight hand-to-hand.. I also doubt he would be 'second of all the great champions of Khorne' if he had not been amazingly powerful in close combat beforehand (enough for them to have 'taken a liking to him', over all the other world eaters that fought at the palace) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Brother-chaplain Astador makes my point well. Also, by my count (+ or - 1), Khârn recieved 20 votes to Bjorn's 10. So...closely contested not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Was Bjorn not interred into a dreadnought because he had...died? Or had been about to? as far as I know thats the only time marines are placed into dreads. Khârn, stormed the breach in the Great Palace, and butchered a disgusting amount of loyal space marines before succumbing to his wounds, tbf I'd have to see he was one of the biggest bad-asses of the post heresy/heresy era and he was captain of the 8th Assault company btw. Now, World Eaters themselves, were devastating in single combat, but a world eaters assault company? Cmon. And since he was Angrons personal equerry, I have to assume he was probably one of the best/powerful/clever warriors in his legion. It would not just be because he complimented Angron, look at all the other peopel who filled similar roles Abaddon Eidolon Sigismund Kor Phareon You would also place Khan in that bracket, he is the world eaters equivalent I think people get a little confused about the World Eaters, it wasnt just pure save ferocity. I'm sure they were the one legion noone would have wanted to fight hand-to-hand.. I also doubt he would be 'second of all the great champions of Khorne' if he had not been amazingly powerful in close combat beforehand (enough for them to have 'taken a liking to him', over all the other world eaters that fought at the palace) As Master of the Varangi Bjorn would also join that list would he not - don't you even read previous posts ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Some of you guy's really need to brush up on your fluff! It's the only thing we have to go by so you have to know it to make a solid argument. Khârn has been killed 2 times that we know of. 1st by Lokein on Istvan and 2nd by Sigismund at the seige. These are facts and have been written and stated in GW fluff Material or Black Library Books. Bjorn was all but dead and was incassed in Dred armor so he could survive. Now since we are talking about the HH we would assume this battle is during that time and before either has been killed or alotted the current form. It's hand to hand combat. Consider all that info and make your arguments based on facts not on the love for your own codex......I would still give a very very slight advantage to Khârn. Very Slight. Bjorn is obviously much more intelegent but sheer rage might get the job done for Khârn....maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Some of you guy's really need to brush up on your fluff! It's the only thing we have to go by so you have to know it to make a solid argument. Khârn has been killed 2 times that we know of. 1st by Lokein on Istvan and 2nd by Sigismund at the seige. These are facts and have been written and stated in GW fluff Material or Black Library Books. Bjorn was all but dead and was incassed in Dred armor so he could survive. Now since we are talking about the HH we would assume this battle is during that time and before either has been killed or alotted the current form. It's hand to hand combat. Consider all that info and make your arguments based on facts not on the love for your own codex......I would still give a very very slight advantage to Khârn. Very Slight. Bjorn is obviously much more intelegent but sheer rage might get the job done for Khârn....maybe. This is a fine point, and one of the few good ones for Khârn. @Hobo Willie, we're voting and seeing who we like, doesn't mean who is actually better in most cases. Let's bring this up again in a year after our book and new 'dex, and I'll show you Bjorn destroying Khârn (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 At no point in Galaxy in Flames does it state that Khârn died due to wounds inflicted, so that first death is speculation. I've been curious as to where it is written that Sigismund defeated Khârn at the Siege. I'm guessing one of the Black Templar codices or Collected Visions? My friends and I have never heard of that bit of fluff. The Chaos codices just say he was last seen dead atop a pile of dead marines. Also, it's speculation as to his intelligence or lack thereof. Khârn is a Captain after all, so he can't be all that poor of a tactician or thinker. His blind rage in combat is a post heresy trait. Pre-heresy, as he is stated to be one of the most collected of World Eaters, which is a giant "who knows" as that's not much of a qualifier, but I wouldn't count out his ability to think through a fight. Bjorn would have died without being interned, so the death is nullified and shouldn't have been used as a reason for or against. And I fail to see how my chosen army of the Night Lords endears me to Khârn. Did I vote for Typhon over Sigismund? No. Night Lords don't have any special characters. You'll see bias from me if Zho Sahaal is entered into this competition. Because that guy is a badass. But he and his lightning claws won't see the competition more than likely. :D Besides, if I were to play an established Loyalist army, I'd play the Wolves. You can ask anybody who's played with/against me over the past decade, that's whom I've always liked. I own all the Blackmane books and eagerly await the new models and fluff that will finally be thrown their way this fall. I chose Khârn because I feel Khârn would win. If they release a new Bjorn the Fell-Handed, I imagine Khârn could actually take him with his str5/6 +2d6 armor pen and 5/6 attacks. He eats armor alive. Though most of the new SM characters will put him down in a one-on-one fight, which is sad. But it all depends on what kind of rules Bjorn will have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Loken never killed Khârn, niether did Sigismund ;) At the seige Khârn died after succumbing to a multitude of wounds that would have killed even a space marine many times and I assume he only died once he had killed all his enemies, and then collapsed on top of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 For interest, Tempus Fugutives have produced pre-heresy profiles for both Bjorn and Khârn here: http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/AotE/...l%20Edition.pdf Their stats are the same but with different special rules to add some spice. Gorechild may give Khârn the edge with +1 Strength but with CA Bjorn may even things out over a series of matches where one charges the other and then visa versa and with a pair of mastercrafted lightening claws rerolling a missed hit and rerolling to wound... I think that this could go either way based on these stats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I know this is a bit pointless but here goes. People lay claim to Khârn being the equerry of angron. Read your fluff guys, he was only kharns right hand man because Angron had killed all the captains in a mindless rage after the emp picked him up from his backwater planet. So by the time Angron got to Khârn he was bored and just beat him up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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