Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Isn't all the other years propaganda as well? 'cough' mat ward 'cough'. Oh wait, Mat Ward does base a good chunk of what he writes off of something already written... but then again, he uses propoganda to base it off of. I really don't think I am being a fanboy, I am just saying that Horus made a mistake, it wasn't his intent to let the Emperor on. And the when he did, he really didn't care either, just waited patiently for the Emperor to come to him. That kind of behaviour does not come out of a desperate man trying to escape before the legions of Russ and Guilleman came, that is the behaviour of a man who knows he has won. And then he hesitated and died. Too bad, huh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I really don't think I am being a fanboy, I am just saying that Horus made a mistake, it wasn't his intent to let the Emperor on. And the when he did, he really didn't care either, just waited patiently for the Emperor to come to him. That kind of behaviour does not come out of a desperate man trying to escape before the legions of Russ and Guilleman came, that is the behaviour of a man who knows he has won. And then he hesitated and died. Too bad, huh? Except Horus' total intent was to kill/defeat the Emprah personally. It was the only way he could take over the Imperium. He lowers his shields specifically to goad the Emprah into coming to Horus' ship to fight him. He has to issue this challenge because it is clear that he no longer has time to battle at the Palace, what with the imminent arrival of two to three large loyal legions. He was acting desperately, he had no choice. Horus was not trying to escape anybody, he was trying to finish the Siege before loyal reinforcements showed up and crushed him. He knew that killing the Emprah was the only way he would 'win' his rebellion. And then you're right, he died. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 After first three HH novels, I'm pretty sure that we will learn that it was in fact Little Horus who lowered the shields.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 His intent was to kill the Emperor personally? Since when? Killing the Emperor was the only way to take the Imperium? That would mean he wanted to rule it, not destroy it... Since when was that his intent? He issued a challenge? Since when? He was acting desperately? Sinc... Jk, it is getting old. Seriously, him waiting at the bridge for the Emperor to come practically shouts he wasn't all that desperate or indeed concerned. Your right, Horus wasn't trying to escape anybody, he was trying to enjoy the spectacle of the Emperor dieing. For all intents and purposes, the impending reinforcements did not affect the seige. You said it yourself, he wasn't trying to escape anybody... but then you contradicted yourself :) Your right! He was waiting for his minions to kill the Emperor before loyalist reinforcements arrived! What a novel concept! So glad you thought of it... After first three HH novels, I'm pretty sure that we will learn that it was in fact Little Horus who lowered the shields.... Of course. He and I (and everyone else) agree on that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I highly doubt it was a mistake for Horus lowering the shields. He knew that the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultramarines were coming quickly along with whatever reinforcements they had picked upon the way. When they reached Terra they would surround Horus's fleet and probably just blast them apart. Or they would've forced their way through any blockade set up by Horus and managed a mass troop landing on the surface of Terra. Horus knew that if they arrived his advantage of numbers and likely orbital superiority would be taken away. So he wanted to finish it off as fast as possible. The only way to do this QUICKLY was to kill the Emperor. If the Emperor was dead then the space marine legions on Terra would probably be broken and easily destroyed. So Horus wanted to end it very very quickly. So he lowered his shield and awaited the Emperor and anybody else he brought with him. But, he died and then the Heresy was crushed so the end of story... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 You need to go reread....everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Almost every detailed non-chaos source points out that Horus needed to kill the Emperor to successfully take control of the Imperium. Also, most sources point out the 3 arriving Legions are what push Horus to chose that moment to drop the shieds and declare his challange. and i dont like calling anybody a fan-boy, especially after Matt Ward redefined how sad a fanboy is, but this is getting rediculous. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Oh wait, I get it. You are suffering under the delusion that the Emperor wasn't moments away from death anyway. Like I said, they were in the last room. Last defence. How long would it before an endless number of traitors and their primarchs killed all the loyalists in that room? There couldn't have been more than a hundred veterans + Jaghaitai + Dorn + other primarch +Emperor < Endless traitors + Mortarion + Angron + three other primarchs, I don't remember them all off the top of my head Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Almost every detailed non-chaos source points out that Horus needed to kill the Emperor to successfully take control of the Imperium.Also, most sources point out the 3 arriving Legions are what push Horus to chose that moment to drop the shieds and declare his challange. First bit - non chaos is the key. Horus didn't want control, he wanted destruction. second bit - Imply, it is explicitly said no one knows. The same source saying no one knows also implies it was to watch the Emperor die. and i dont like calling anybody a fan-boy, especially after Matt Ward redefined how sad a fanboy is, but this is getting rediculous. WLK I agree completely, it is ridiculus that after I have given proof and fluff backing that these people are this deluded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Oh wait, I get it. You are suffering under the delusion that the Emperor wasn't moments away from death anyway. Like I said, they were in the last room. Last defence. How long would it before an endless number of traitors and their primarchs killed all the loyalists in that room? There couldn't have been more than a hundred veterans + Jaghaitai + Dorn + other primarch +Emperor < Endless traitors + Mortarion + Angron + three other primarchs, I don't remember them all off the top of my head Only a hundred veterans. I hope you are joking. As far as I know it was the ENTIRE legion of the White Scars, Blood Angels, and the Imperial Fists. That is about 30,000 marines, probably more though and then there are millions of Imperial Guardsmen. All the Guard were probably dead by the end of the campaign, however their had to have been at least ten thousand loyalist marines left. Remember the Imperial Palace is HUGE! I mean the size of a country if I recall. And it was heavily defendable and they had the titan legions and a crap load of other stuff. They would'ev been overwhelmed in the end, but noafter they killed enough traitors and made them pay. But, by then the Ultramarines and Space Wolves and Dark Angels would be landing and kicking serious butt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Oh wait, I get it. You are suffering under the delusion that the Emperor wasn't moments away from death anyway. Like I said, they were in the last room. Last defence. How long would it before an endless number of traitors and their primarchs killed all the loyalists in that room? There couldn't have been more than a hundred veterans + Jaghaitai + Dorn + other primarch +Emperor < Endless traitors + Mortarion + Angron + three other primarchs, I don't remember them all off the top of my head 1. How do you know/where does it state that the traitors were at "the last room"? 2. Dorn obviously had enough Marines to take his entire legion of several thousand plus into Perturabo's Iron Cage. 3. Custodians, loyal Mechanicum, Sisters of Silence, Blood Angels+Sanguinius, Healthy, unafraid Emprah, thousands of loyal guardsmen. 4. If certain key figures at the siege elude your memory, could other details of it also escape you? You seem to be trying very, very hard to convince everyone here that Horus totally pwnd the Emprah and died because he was tired of waiting to win. All of the fluff contradicts this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Oh wait, I get it. You are suffering under the delusion that the Emperor wasn't moments away from death anyway. Like I said, they were in the last room. Last defence. How long would it before an endless number of traitors and their primarchs killed all the loyalists in that room? There couldn't have been more than a hundred veterans + Jaghaitai + Dorn + other primarch +Emperor < Endless traitors + Mortarion + Angron + three other primarchs, I don't remember them all off the top of my head Only a hundred veterans. I hope you are joking. As far as I know it was the ENTIRE legion of the White Scars, Blood Angels, and the Imperial Fists. That is about 30,000 marines, probably more though and then there are millions of Imperial Guardsmen. All the Guard were probably dead by the end of the campaign, however their had to have been at least ten thousand loyalist marines left. Remember the Imperial Palace is HUGE! I mean the size of a country if I recall. And it was heavily defendable and they had the titan legions and a crap load of other stuff. They would'ev been overwhelmed in the end, but noafter they killed enough traitors and made them pay. But, by then the Ultramarines and Space Wolves and Dark Angels would be landing and kicking serious butt. You are aware that this isn't the begginning of the siege, this is the end...? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Oh wait, I get it. You are suffering under the delusion that the Emperor wasn't moments away from death anyway. Like I said, they were in the last room. Last defence. How long would it before an endless number of traitors and their primarchs killed all the loyalists in that room? There couldn't have been more than a hundred veterans + Jaghaitai + Dorn + other primarch +Emperor < Endless traitors + Mortarion + Angron + three other primarchs, I don't remember them all off the top of my head 1. How do you know/where does it state that the traitors were at "the last room"? 2. Dorn obviously had enough Marines to take his entire legion of several thousand plus into Perturabo's Iron Cage. 3. Custodians, loyal Mechanicum, Sisters of Silence, Blood Angels+Sanguinius, Healthy, unafraid Emprah, thousands of loyal guardsmen. 4. If certain key figures at the siege elude your memory, could other details of it also escape you? You seem to be trying very, very hard to convince everyone here that Horus totally pwnd the Emprah and died because he was tired of waiting to win. All of the fluff contradicts this. Agreed and I just want to stress that the Palace of Terra was HUGE! Big enough to house more than enough marines. And if their was only a hundred or so loyal veterans then how did the descendants of the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars come about. Obviously their were several thousand marines left and millions of guardsmen. Custodes and as mentioned above the Mechanicum and the Sisters of Silence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 and here is where you are mistaken: traitor primarchs: both Fulgrim and Perturabo had removed themselves and their legions from the Siege. Fulgrim had grown bored with the Siege and took his Legion to ravage the nearly defenseless population of Terra. Perturabo had removed his legion after breaking open the Imperial Gates to insult Dorn and take out the Imperial Fists fortress on Terra. So at the Siege itself, Hours on had Morty, Angron (who probably wasnt much use as he had blood on the brain) and Magnus. so not 5 primarchs as you list. when Horus lowers the shield, the Imperial Palace itself isnt pentrated by Chaos forces. The Chaos forces are in the Imperial Gardens, but due to the efforts of Sanguinius, his Blood ANgels, and the Adeptus Custodes, the Loyalists are able to pull back into the Imperial Palace itself. so while you might say they were in the "last room", the Canon material itself says otherwise. it also says Jaghaitai Khan wasnt present yet, as if he was he woudl have also joined the boarding team. he IS present when Dorn returns with the Emperor to entomb him on the golden throne. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 The Emperor himself WASN'T in any danger had he stayed on Terra. That man could slaughter Chaos Marines like a lawn mower slaughters grass. Problem is that he had to take down Horus to protect The Imperium itself, because while he himself was undefeatable the whole mess of Chaos scum running amok was more than he could hunt down on his own and they'd make holding The Imperium together impossible. While Horus knew the SW/DA/UM were coming The Emperor didn't. Therefore Horus knew The Emperor would have to come face him if given the opportunity. Since Horus knew his time was just about up he dropped his shields to take one final Chaos God fueled stab at defeating The Emperor....and then even that only came close to success because The Emperor (unfortunately) let it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Oh wait, I get it. You are suffering under the delusion that the Emperor wasn't moments away from death anyway. Like I said, they were in the last room. Last defence. How long would it before an endless number of traitors and their primarchs killed all the loyalists in that room? There couldn't have been more than a hundred veterans + Jaghaitai + Dorn + other primarch +Emperor < Endless traitors + Mortarion + Angron + three other primarchs, I don't remember them all off the top of my head Only a hundred veterans. I hope you are joking. As far as I know it was the ENTIRE legion of the White Scars, Blood Angels, and the Imperial Fists. That is about 30,000 marines, probably more though and then there are millions of Imperial Guardsmen. All the Guard were probably dead by the end of the campaign, however their had to have been at least ten thousand loyalist marines left. Remember the Imperial Palace is HUGE! I mean the size of a country if I recall. And it was heavily defendable and they had the titan legions and a crap load of other stuff. They would'ev been overwhelmed in the end, but noafter they killed enough traitors and made them pay. But, by then the Ultramarines and Space Wolves and Dark Angels would be landing and kicking serious butt. You are aware that this isn't the begginning of the siege, this is the end...? Yes but as I said the Imperial Palace is HUGE and it has more than enough space to hold an army and as others have noted the traitors didn't even reached the inner walls of the palace. They were in the garden still trying to break through the heavy defenses. Even if they managed to get inside they would be ambushed countless times and probably suffer even heavier casualities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormented Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 The forces defending the Palace were vast, out numbered by the traitors for now but still vast in its own right. Horus saw himself as the rightful Emperor and thought he could control chaos but we all know he couldn't and didn't. The legions defending the Emperor were unyielding and loyal to the end, they would of made the traitors pay a heavy price for every inch they took. Horus lowering his shields was a gambit, he knew of the impending reinforces that would see his forces anihilated! The Emperors death was not assured, if he and the defending primarchs, some survivng marines and custodes were forced into the throne room as a last defence i think the Emperor would of unleashed his mega-death attack on all the traitor primarchs that were leading the assault, killing them instantly. The only reason he nearly died because of said attack was the result of his injuries from being too soft on Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 [ You seem to be trying very, very hard to convince everyone here that Horus totally pwnd the Emprah and died because he was tired of waiting to win. All of the fluff contradicts this. No! What I am saying is that Horus would have won had he not lowered his shields. That is all I am saying. Had he just let his minions do their job, he would have had the Emperor killed and managed to get away before the other legions got there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 I highly doubt that Horous would've won before the loyalist reinforcements got their. First off the Emperor would've slaughtered tons of traitors and along with his Imperial Forces they would've reaped a pretty toll indeed. However, it has already been said that Horus couldn't breach the palace before the reinforcements arrived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 He had already breached the palace though...? Once again, Codex Chaos Marines Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 He had already breached the palace though...? Once again, Codex Chaos Marines The Palace is not like a big open box, where once you get through a wall the inside is open and exposed. It was a truly huge fortress, designed to withstand any siege, to prevent any enemy from getting access to the Emperor's Throne Room. It did. Getting in your girlfriend's house is not getting into her bedroom, ya dig? And one codex does not trump all the other sources that say the opposite of what yours suggests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 C-rex hit it before i did, but i am going to say it again anyways. Yes, YOUR codex states you breached the Imperial Palace. You were on the grounds and fields of the Imperial Palace. To put this in real world context, you invaded the White House and breached the outlying fences, penning the defenders in the building itself. You were NOT in the oval office though. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Yea....the Imperial Palace is like the size of Europe... Getting "inside" isn't exactly close to accomplishing anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 [ You seem to be trying very, very hard to convince everyone here that Horus totally pwnd the Emprah and died because he was tired of waiting to win. All of the fluff contradicts this. No! What I am saying is that Horus would have won had he not lowered his shields. That is all I am saying. Had he just let his minions do their job, he would have had the Emperor killed and managed to get away before the other legions got there. Not a snowball's chance in Hell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateJake Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 [ You seem to be trying very, very hard to convince everyone here that Horus totally pwnd the Emprah and died because he was tired of waiting to win. All of the fluff contradicts this. No! What I am saying is that Horus would have won had he not lowered his shields. That is all I am saying. Had he just let his minions do their job, he would have had the Emperor killed and managed to get away before the other legions got there. Not a snowball's chance in Hell. You are aware Dark Apostle Thirst, that it has blatantly said in many sources that the space wolves and other legions were days away and it would take much longer for the traitors to win on Terra. It would've been an even more epic win for the Imperium if Horus hadn't lowered his shield. Perhaps the Emperor would still even be here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180666-favorite-primarch/page/11/#findComment-2237490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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