= 1,000 Chapter Project: post links here for MIA Chapters =

[Philip S]

@ Ferrata - Whoa! At the moment I use a simple rule to decide between two chapters with the same name: First created: first listed.

 

At the moment the important thing for the 1,000 project is to have a representative of each named chapter. Having multiple versions of a the 'same' chapter would mess with the 1,000. Later I'll figure out a way to add in variations of a chapter (mainly for fan versions of undeveloped canon chapters, but it can be used for double ups.). Probably an asterisk, or little superscript 1, 2, 3 etc. next the name.

 

This is the best solution I could come up with: to maintain the '1,000 chapter' concept, and gather in all the creativity of all the fans.

 

For DIY chapters, there is no such thing as copyright and claiming names/colourschemes/background :lol:

Seeing as it's a personal campaign of yours: copyright always exists. If you make up a background for your chapter you own the copyright in it. However GW also owns copyright to some elements, and trademarks, so you are not free to do what you want as GW has a say too. In fact GW has a lot of say as fan made background is derivative of GW's IP so GW has the final say. Also if you have taken some parts from public works you do not own the copyright in them - those parts remain public.

 

That's how copyright stands - but successfully prosecuting is another matter. Most (all) fans would never bother with the law in regard to their chapters, fans ignore copyright in such cases, and often see it as 'collective' - but that does not mean the legal rights are not there. Choosing to ignore using your rights while part of a group is very different from not having them.

 

Example: if a fan wrote a massive IA and stories, and some person copied them all, ripped out the GW IP, and sold it to non-GW publisher. Or worse sold it 'as is' to GW. That fan would have a legal case, and would probably be successful in getting an injunction (if it was sold to GW; GW would sort it once they are made aware). It's quite serious once the law gets involved.

 

Now that's out the way - about those chapters ;)

 

Philip

Edited September 9, 2010 by Philip S

[Ferrata]

I am not saying that creating the 1000 chapter project should have copies, all I am saying is that it is not a definative list of chapters and therefore people can make ones that are already on the list.

 

As for the copyright issue, just because I write an IA about the Iron Dragons (one of the most commonly used names for chapters) doesn't stop little Jimmy from south Texas writing his own version of the Iron Dragons, or James in France or Justin in London. I don't own the copyright to the name "Iron Dragons" and neither does anyone else in terms of a chapter. If I were to write a full IA and then someone printed it off and showed their mates "their" work - yes it is in bad taste but I ain't going to get in a flap about it. Now making money off my ideas would be a different thing, but that is not what we are talking about.

 

If I paint my chapter up in orange with cream coloured shoulder pads, and then see another army painted like that, I have no right to destroy or claim ownership of those minis.

 

I say it is a personal campaign because too many times I have seen people start a chapter with a common name like Iron Dragons only for people to respond with "That name is taken." Not it isn't and not it cannot be.

[recon0321]

i would also like to add my DIY chapter

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm/bpe=...spacemarine.jpg

 

Knights of Tartosa

 

 

Knights of Tartosa are a chapter of the Adeptus Astartes created during the 3rd founding by the High Lords of Terra they have crusaded to bring the Emperors light to the farthest reaches of the galaxy.

Origins

 

Having been created from the Gene-Seed of Rogal Dorn, the chapter had a hefty reputation to uphold. They were created from a vanguard of veterans from a group of Imperial Fists. Some say chosen others say banished because of radical thinking but regardless they were led by a Veteran Sgt. Know simply as Bernarde . Little is know about the Veteran Sgt. other than when he was tasked with the creation of the new chapter. he immediately obeyed and knew the emperor would guide his hand is all things.

He was given:

 

1 command squad including chaplain librarian apothecary champion and standard bearer

2 ten man tactical squads

1 assault squad

1 devastator squad

1 ten man scout sniper squad with Veteran Sgt. Crixus

He was also given a barely space worthy battle barge

Edited September 9, 2010 by recon0321

[Brother Argent]

Iron Dragons... Heh, I have a Chapter called that. Admitidly I haven't seen any others pop up in my time around here but, hey, I'm not a seasoned veteran like some.

 

Oh and if the Emperor's Word are still MIA here is the link to their thread:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=145914

 

Not an IA, I know, but I think that is all he ever developed.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Silver Phoenix

[Philip S]

I am not saying that creating the 1000 chapter project should have copies, all I am saying is that it is not a definative list of chapters and therefore people can make ones that are already on the list.

I'm hoping it will be a definitive list, and include variations of a given chapter name.

 

@ recon032- please start an IA thread. Once it is complete let me know and I'll add them.

 

@ Silver Phoenix - thanks for the link :o

 

Philip

[Ferrata]

I'm hoping it will be a definitive list, and include variations of a given chapter name.

Are you suggseting that your list will be *the* 1000 Space Marine chapters that are in the Universe? And when this list is full, that if another person comes along and creates a chapter not on that list they are somehow going against a definitive list of *the* chapters.

[Philip S]

I'm hoping it will be a definitive list, and include variations of a given chapter name.

Are you suggseting that your list will be *the* 1000 Space Marine chapters that are in the Universe? And when this list is full, that if another person comes along and creates a chapter not on that list they are somehow going against a definitive list of *the* chapters.

No.

 

I want all the current loyalist chapters in 40K listed. It would be 'definitive' as in 'includes everything'.

 

I want it to be a list of all canon and fan made chapters - with the fan made chapters consisting of a minimum of an IA or gallery, chapter symbol and colour scheme. I also want to include fan made versions of undeveloped cannon chapters.

 

At the moment there are around 480 MIA chapters (chapters that are in the list but do not have links). While many may be found in time (we are finding them all the time) there is still a bit of room and a way to go.

 

If one day we have 1,000 chapters made up of canon chapters and good fan made chapters, I'll still collect them together even if it goes over 1,000. To get it back down to the 1,000 I may group them by best of the best (best IA and support work) fan work, and if that eventually becomes a problem I'll start a massive poll.

 

However the unedited 'master' list would be available. So all fan made chapters ever submitted will still be there. I'm not going to throw away the MIA chapters either.

 

Philip

[Master Gabriel Macleod]

Phillip can you add my Chapter. my icon is the Ravenwing icon, i have not figured out how to put it on the pic. If you know how please pm me on doing so or just do it yourself.

 

Angels of the Storm

 

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu168/Khaine_01/spacemarine.jpg

 

 

Hey can you add my Chapter PLEASE!!!!!!!. :drool:

[Philip S]

@ Master Gabriel Macleod - I'll add it.

 

Philip

[nightrider]

I have 3 DIY chapters that I have been working on over the years, although not for a while:

 

1. Emerald Scythes

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads..._1433_54725.png

 

2. Thunder Falcons

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads..._1434_39649.png

 

3. Burning Shadows

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads..._2404_84645.png

 

All three have parts of functioning, playable tabletop armies.

 

I can provide more details about them should that be necessary.

[Dazzo]

Others are welcome to have a go at their own list any time they like :lol: :D

 

Oh and Neisseria, your Obsidian Tears would have been our choice in the end anyway seeing as you had put so much work into it, but glad to see this issue has been resolved.

 

Be cool.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Dazzo

[Doghouse]

Are you suggseting that your list will be *the* 1000 Space Marine chapters that are in the Universe? And when this list is full, that if another person comes along and creates a chapter not on that list they are somehow going against a definitive list of *the* chapters

Until someone else gets of their backside and spends several years putting together a visual index into something that looks as good, Yes, actually, I would suggest that. The better your chapter looks, the more effort you spend on your IA, the more models you have painted and how good they look, all this decides who gets in when the bell finally tolls. It may be harsh buts thats how it is...for now...

 

...as both I and phil are in discussions with others that may allow for all chapters and versions of chapters to be included in an uber list more comprehensive than anything ever seen before, but that is not yet upon us, so our imperfect efforts will have to suffice for now.

 

And this is exactly why I won't be taking part in this.

 

This isn't why the thousand chapters were created and is completely against the spirit of creating DIY chapters. The number of a thousand chapters was invented to promote creativity and allow people to make their own rather than just use "official" colour schemes.

This list is very nice but no more official than anything anyone else's DIY stuff regardless of the effort put into it. To claim this is the definitive list serves only to hamper the creativity of others when clearly there is no official listing of chapters for good reason.

 

The whole reason behind the thousand has always to promote creativity not for someone to come along and tell people what they can and can't make into a chapter. This project goes completely against the original intent of the DIY marine chapters and I find it a little deluded to be honest.

[Neisseria]

Oh and Neisseria, your Obsidian Tears would have been our choice in the end anyway seeing as you had put so much work into it, but glad to see this issue has been resolved.

 

Thanks, I appreciate it. As a roleplayer I can't help but write backgrounds for pretty much everything I play with, even in tabletop 40k :lol:

[Ferrata]

Are you suggseting that your list will be *the* 1000 Space Marine chapters that are in the Universe? And when this list is full, that if another person comes along and creates a chapter not on that list they are somehow going against a definitive list of *the* chapters

Until someone else gets of their backside and spends several years putting together a visual index into something that looks as good, Yes, actually, I would suggest that. The better your chapter looks, the more effort you spend on your IA, the more models you have painted and how good they look, all this decides who gets in when the bell finally tolls. It may be harsh buts thats how it is...for now...

 

...as both I and phil are in discussions with others that may allow for all chapters and versions of chapters to be included in an uber list more comprehensive than anything ever seen before, but that is not yet upon us, so our imperfect efforts will have to suffice for now.

I completely agree with Doghouse on this one then. Whilst I commend you for the effort of putting a list together of DIY chapters and official chapters, much like the original Liber Astartes site, it is extremely arrogant and misguided of you to believe you have the right to select which of the thousands of the chapters out there are good enough to warrant being on a list of the 1000 chapters. The reason why we make DIY chapters is so we don't need to be tied to a list of pre-created chapters and by doing this, you are going against this.

[Philip S]

To clarify;

 

I\'m hoping it will be a definitive list, and include variations of a given chapter name.

Are you suggseting that your list will be *the* 1000 Space Marine chapters that are in the Universe? And when this list is full, that if another person comes along and creates a chapter not on that list they are somehow going against a definitive list of *the* chapters.

No.

 

I want all the current loyalist chapters in 40K listed. It would be \'definitive\' as in \'includes everything\'.

 

I want it to be a list of all canon and fan made chapters - with the fan made chapters consisting of a minimum of an IA or gallery, chapter symbol and colour scheme. I also want to include fan made versions of undeveloped cannon chapters.

 

At the moment there are around 480 MIA chapters (chapters that are in the list but do not have links). While many may be found in time (we are finding them all the time) there is still a bit of room and a way to go.

 

If one day we have 1,000 chapters made up of canon chapters and good fan made chapters, I\'ll still collect them together even if it goes over 1,000. To get it back down to the 1,000 I may group them by best of the best (best IA and support work) fan work, and if that eventually becomes a problem I\'ll start a massive poll.

 

However the unedited \'master\' list would be available. So all fan made chapters ever submitted will still be there. I\'m not going to throw away the MIA chapters either.

 

Philip

I hope this makes things clear.

 

To restate my intent: I want to include all fan made chapters.

 

There are some criteria to being included in the list: you need an IA with image and chapter symbol applied to the shoulder*, or a gallery of photos of painted examples.

* Some fans have found it difficult to include their chapter symbol on their Space Marine image and this is were Dazzo and I have leant a hand and sorted it out for them.

As time goes by the current \'MIA\' chapters (those without a link) will be replaced with new DIY chapters (those which do have a link).

 

I hope we, all us fans, can pull together to make something we can all be proud off and inclusive of everyone\'s creativity. I like to think of this project more as a showcase of all the Space Marine fan\'s hard work in creating their Index Astartes and painting up armies. That is why I want everyone included.

 

Please can we draw a line under this and pull together?

 

I am always seeking to improve the project, and I am always open to new ideas. If you wish to contact me about this, you are welcome to PM me.

 

Philip

 

___________________

Edit: Back to business;

 

@ nightrider - yes please! Do you have any chapter symbols for these?

Edited September 15, 2010 by Philip S

[Doghouse]

I think that your best bet is to drop the concept of the thousand and go with the history and colours of the astartes.

 

The idea of there being one thousand chapters is a concept taken from the Rogue Trader rulebook which said "Each of the thousand Chapters has it's own history, rituals and traditions." which was used to allow people to use their own chapters rather than rely on the twelve examples given in the book. Back then it was almost unheard of for people to create their own chapters and I can remember many arguments about how you could only use the ones in the book! :P

 

With the arrival of the second edition codex this was changed to "Indeed it is impossible to say for certain how many Chapters have been created at all, only that there are approximately a thousand to exist today, scattered throughout the galaxy." as the fan base expanded and has remained as such ever since.

 

As it says in the quote above there is no way of knowing how many chapters there are or have been over the last ten thousand years so you'd be better off just archiving all the chapters that people would like to submit rather than placing a limit that no longer applies.

It'd be a heck of a lot more useful as a resource.

[Philip S]

@ Doghouse - I see what you are saying.

 

The 'thousand chapters' is a well recognised quote, ingrained into the fan base's psyche, and it seems like a good thing to aim for. I suspect deep down it is a 'poetic thousand', much in the same way that there are a million worlds in the Imperium are a 'poetic million'. I think you are right about what you are saying, and in the reality of the project the '1,000' will come to light as being 'poetic' as the numbers grow.

 

One thing I am surprised at is the number of DIY chapters. There are surprisingly few DIY chapters with full IA or paint jobs, considering the size of the fanbase. At the moment there are a mere 265 DIY chapters in the gallery with a link to a fan made IA or gallery of painted marines. 265! That is not a lot.

 

It is a similar amount to the canon chapters: 247.

 

Combined, that's 512 chapters in total with links.

 

The rest of the chapters in the gallery are MIA ('Missing Index Astartes' - catch all term for 'no link'). There are currently 477 MIA chapters in the gallery! When putting together the gallery the term MIA was made be me for chapters I could not track down. When Dazzo started the project there was no need to find link as that was not his goal. That is something I added. He wanted to create a gallery of 1,000 chapter paint schemes. A lot of these chapters, and I mean a lot, were made by Dazzo to depict many of the chapters found on various lists, forums, and suggestions and ideas by other fans. He worked damn hard to do this and his dream is about to become reality with the 1,000 mark.

 

However I want links. Unfortunately not all the MIA chapters have links to be rediscovered. There are in the gallery with the hope someone will come and reclaim them, but my hope is fading as I think we have found all that we are going to find (it may pick up when we hit the magical 1,000 mark).

 

All these unclaimed MIA chapters are to be replaced with DIY chapters (and/ or newly discovered or revealed canon chapters). 477 is a lot to replace and will take a while. In the mean time these MIA will fill out the 1,000. I do not really want to remove them entirely once they are replaced as they may inspire someone to take one on. So the entire list of all the categories (canon, DIY, MIA) is likely to grow beyond 1,000. However if you dig a little deeper only about half have links.

 

This leads me to the idea that I'll have a proper list of just canon and DIY (512) and an all inclusive list that adds in the MIAs. This all inclusive list will go beyond 1,000.

 

One day in the far future we may have more that 1,000 canon and DIY chapters (ignoring all MIAs), and I hope that day will come, and when it does I suspect we are going to sneak over the 1,000 milestone. It will still be the '1,000 chapter project'. I like to think of it a an aim, something to aspire to. Once we reach it, then maybe we will change the name, or keep it out of 'tradition' (because it is going to take that long :P )

 

Philip

[Brother Argent]

I have five loyalist chapters that I'm slowly working on wit the intent to (re)release them one by one soon: The Eternal Legion (aka Sons of Bennu), the Chevaliers, The Lion Warriors (Based of the GW Scheme), the Angels of Evisceration and the Black Lamenters. As I get each one up I'll post up a link and sceme for you here, Philip. Thats if you want them...

[Philip S]

Thats if you want them...

I sure do!

 

Philip

[Brother Argent]

Well I better get working then...

[Dazzo]

Seems every one is ignoring the last part of what I said which is that eventually both I and Phill would like to see all chapters and all creators of chapters acknowledged in some way, but as I and phil are mainly doing this by ourselves we chose to stick with the Iconic 1000 chapters concept as it was an achievable goal.

 

As Phil says I started this as a personal project for myself as a fun thing to do, but also for others as a nice way of seeing what was out there, I wanted nice images, with as much detail as possible so if others liked what they saw they could replicate it, even have a bit of fluff for their armies. To that end I decided their would be certain requirements to get on the list, at first it was nothing more than a cool name(and a serious one), then it was a little bit of info about the chapter, then a colour scheme, than colour scheme and chapter badge, then a more detailed background and then I figured if you had painted your own you deserved a place on the list. It has evolved as my own abilities on a computer has improved, and as my expectations grew because of what I was being exposed to in my quest to find these chapters. And I'll be honest I am harsh in my demands, but that is only because I want this to be an awesome resource, its not malice.

 

Without Phils input this would have been no more than an interesting aside, ohh look that guys got a list of 1000 chapters and colour schemes doesn't that look pretty. Phil has done alot to adapt my concept into something that could be useful for every one, fans and chapter creators alike, so when I see people having a pop at him for trying to make this as good as it can be, when they themselves have, well lets just say, where is their compilation of all the chapters in creation at the moment. At no point has Phil ever said to me "you know what that chapter is crap im not going to include it" it has always been how will we include them all. Maybe people need to get more involved in the project and help first before sounding off about us being elitist berks. Not explicitly but definitely implied.

 

I say all this not to piss people off or start an argument because we have nothing to argue about, as fans I think we all would love to see this thing done, god knows GW wont be doing it, so why not get involved and find out what problems we have and maybe see if you have a solution for us.

 

Anyway I think Phil has explained this all better than me, but as this was my fault...in part...I thought I'd better offer my own explanation for my i'll advised post, which I should point out I did edit very quickly when I had cooled down.

 

Apologies(not least to phil who seemed to have everything under control before I stumbled in like a drunken bull in a china shop)

Edited September 17, 2010 by Dazzo

[Doghouse]

I completely understand that you are extremely passionate about this project and that shows to some extent with your post that is best forgotten. Hopefully Philip has known me long enough now to know that I'm all about encouraging creativity and knows that I'm not one to needlessly pick holes just for the sake of it.

 

The problem I see reading this as an outsider to the project is that within the last few posts with talk of a definitive lists and who gets to decide what is included it was slipping over into the realms of telling people what they can and can't do in regards to diy chapters.

 

The whole reason GW have never attempted this is partially because of the time it'd take to gather all the info but for the most part it's to allow the players as a whole a greater sense of freedom when creating their own chapters.

The creation of collected fan chapters is a fantastic idea, but applying a limit and then saying you'll decide who gets in and who doesn't as the thousand fill up kind of comes across as a bit deluded.

 

The bottom line is at the end of the day no matter how much time and energy you put into something like this and how great it looks it's just a fan project.

When you start talking about definitive lists and deciding who is allowed to get into the number that you've put in place it becomes something a little darker.

 

Best of luck to you both with it though. :cuss

[Ferrata]

I repeat Doghouse's sentiment - it is not that I disagree or dislike this project, I think it is a good idea and is more comprehensive than the B&C's own Librarium. However, since the discussion with the Obsidian Tears and claiming names, there has been a bitter twist in the discussion. I am all for lists of DIY chapters for people to read, I just really don't like the idea of people changing their chapter names because someone halfway across the world has already produced a chapter with the same name. For example, I have a story about the chapter Emperor's Tears, does this mean if I went on the list with this chapter then others could not? No.

 

As of how to overcome this difficulty, I am not sure of how you are coding the system but how I would do it would be have a number of links of the same chapter name. You could always have one you suggest above the others (for example using it as the colour scheme), but you could link all of them.

[Neisseria]

Since you've mentioned the Obsidian Tears, I'd just like to make the point that I was the one who offered to change the name - I felt in no way pressured to do so, and the only time Philip suggested I do so was to get on the list "then and there" as opposed to waiting until he'd tried to track down the other guy.

 

I can see both sides here, but honestly, there was never a suggestion that I couldn't be a part of the project because someone else had got there first, especially since I understood that I'd have to put the work into making my Chapter's IA "good enough" to replace the MIA Chapter. If anything, that encouraged my creativity, not stifled it. At the time I decided that if there was another chapter there with the same name, then I may as well change the name of my chapter - for my own gratification, not because I was told to for the purposes of the list. I liked the idea of being unique.

 

Now if someone else comes along after me and uses the name, then it doesn't bother me at all - they can do what they like - but since I could change it to be unique at the time, why not do so? If both IA articles are good, then I'm sure the guys above would include both Chapters. But we're not talking about two Chapters with decent IAs - we're talking about a "current" Chapter vs an MIA that could not be found.

 

Anyway I'm not really a part of this. I just wanted to chime in with how I felt, maybe to clear up some ill feelings. Ignore me :D

[Octavulg]

On restriction of creativity:

 

Nobody can restrict someone's creativity but that person themselves. It is that simple. If seeing a Chapter on a list dissuades someone from using that name, that is still their decision. Philip possesses no method or means of preventing them from using or not using that name. Furthermore, this arguably helps people be more creative by allowing them to use unique names - which many people want to do (myself among them). Either way, the only people who can be stopped by this project are those who allow themselves to be. The absolute maximum consequence would be that person's Chapter not being included in the list.

 

On the meaning of the word definitive:

 

1de

Edited September 17, 2010 by Octavulg