=I= Coming in 2010?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

@ Great Crusade08, he already did to the other marine chapters just to make his mary sue version of the Ultra's look better, can't imagine he would see any reason to stop.

 

you know i get your mad at mr Ward, but do you have to call the Ultras Mary Sue that really burns me up... people talk without thinking some times...

its not our fault Mat Ward loves them so

I didn't mean to offend you and I am sorry if I did, I am not saying the ultramarines are mary sues, they may seem like that if all you have is wards rantings, whilst if you have any Ultramarine fluff pre ward, then they have a nice history and are a noble chapter that had the bad luck of having the worst writer (even Twilight books are better then his stuff, mind you, thats only because they are big enough to give to hobos to use as fire fuel, otherwise they are equal.) as a fanboy, and I offer my condolances to all Ultramarine and Blood Angel players for what Ward has done to your fluff, and merly ask you to join us in praying for his swift banishment, er sacking before he gets near another army.

A hivefleet, meh, the Squats were lucky, they should be glad ward will never go near them.

The main problem I have with ward is he gets paid for what he writes, yet he takes no care at all in what he writes.

Back on Topic, all I have heard is next year at the earliest, most of the whispers and infomation I hear seems to point to more fantasy this year with possible Dark Eldar, and perhaps have all Grey knights in power armour teleport/deepstrike and stay troops, and hopefully something to counter the stupidity of taking armour saves instead of a leadership test in combat, I mean Grey knights train to be outnumbered.

[Grey Mage]

Percentiles would be terrible in 40k, i just hope that GW realizes this.

 

They did percentages in 2nd Edition and abandoned them for the FOC which has served well ever since. I seriously doubt that GW designers will ever go back to percentages, as there is no reason to adjust the current system further. The FOC does what they intend, which is to "shape" army lists to focus on basic troops (Troops), while also minimizing/limiting excessive specialty/elite/support style units. In the cases where such specialization is appropriate (e.g. Deathwing lists, Biker lists, etc.) there are game mechanics in place (usually via a Special Character) which allows modification to the FOC. If done correctly it all works very well. I am quite sure that the do realize this and will stick with what we've got, or something close to it.

 

Now, to make this related to this thread (Inquisition-specific), I could see the Grey Knights perhaps getting a special FOC (like the Space Wolves do, with their 4 HQ slots). Just throwing this out there, but we could do something unique like get 1 HQ (either Grand Master or Inquisitor Lord), while getting 4 Elite slots, or something like that.

 

V

Fantasy player said much the same however, and look what happened?

[Valerian]

Fantasy player said much the same however, and look what happened?

 

In 21 years of playing 40k, I've never even looked at a Fantasy rulebook or army book, so I have no idea what happened. Did they abadon percentages, then go back to them in 8th Edition? If so, then the actual game designers at GW have gotten more incompetent than I thought (unless this actually works in Fantasy; I wouldn't know).

 

V

[ripath]

Fantasy player said much the same however, and look what happened?

as a dabbling fantasy player I think its related to the vampire count death star. Where you put 1300 points of a 2000 point army into one unit. Fantasy plays much differently from 40k. Unlike in 40k where almost everyone will tell you to not buy fancy wargear but more models in your army(for DH atleast) In fantasy it can be a highly viable target. Overall though I'm happy their nerfing the summoning death star VC army. Because I play stunties.

 

on an unrelated note the dwarves don't use magic, and the sisters hunt psykers. I wonder if they would be friends if they met?

[Brovius]

Fantasy player said much the same however, and look what happened?

 

In 21 years of playing 40k, I've never even looked at a Fantasy rulebook or army book, so I have no idea what happened. Did they abadon percentages, then go back to them in 8th Edition? If so, then the actual game designers at GW have gotten more incompetent than I thought (unless this actually works in Fantasy; I wouldn't know).

 

V

Fantasy did have it at one point, but replaced it for a psuedo-force organization chart where you could have unlimited 'core' units, and are restricted to how many 'special' and 'rare' choices, depending on the size of the game.

 

It works in Fantasy mainly because of the necessity to use large blocks of infantry and troop-equivalent units, and those units are all rubbing shoulders and moving in formation.

In 40k, however, a percentile system lead to Tyranid players fielding stupid amounts of dirt-cheap Termagaunts in units 10-strong, so that no player could ever tell where one squad begins and another one ends, let alone be able to gun down every single squad.

[Valerian]

Terminators as Troops would be the easier (and already established) way of doing that mte. ;)

 

Well, it wasn't a serious proposal, just an example of how army lists can be shaped with army-specific adjustments to the FOC. Allowing Terminator as Troops is one option, but leads to a different effect: this allows a) up to 6 Terminator units to be taken and b) makes the Terminators a Scoring unit.

 

Going with my example (1HQ and 4Elites) arrives at a different outcome; the Terminators still aren't Scoring, you can take a maximum of 4 units, and they still compete with other Elites choices (like Dreadnoughts, if they are moved to that slot from Heavy Support).

 

Regardless, I expect GW will stick with the FOC model in future edititions of the game, as it actually is a pretty effective way to "define the boundaries" for army lists. There are enought options that every army you face can be unique, but not so much as to allow too much chaos (as Grey Knights, we certainly wouldn't want that!).

 

V

[Magnus Thane]

A cut and paste online update for the army would already make me happy, upgrading the stats and rules a bit.

Heck... a WD codex is good enough, accompagnying a box of GK Termies with other weapons and a GK Grand Master model.

[Eddie Orlock]

In 21 years of playing 40k, I've never even looked at a Fantasy rulebook or army book, so I have no idea what happened. ...

Fantasy did have it at one point, but replaced it for a psuedo-force organization chart where you could have unlimited 'core' units, and are restricted to how many 'special' and 'rare' choices, depending on the size of the game.

 

It works in Fantasy mainly because of the necessity to use large blocks of infantry and troop-equivalent units, and those units are all rubbing shoulders and moving in formation.

In 40k, however, a percentile system lead to Tyranid players fielding stupid amounts of dirt-cheap Termagaunts in units 10-strong, so that no player could ever tell where one squad begins and another one ends, let alone be able to gun down every single squad.

I've dabbled in fantasy, and kept a weather eye on it, if only 'cause being children of the same source, the direction one takes can be a clue to the future of the other. I built an army for sixth. Fantasy is just about all V.P.'s all the time, even missions are just bonus V.P.'s

 

They might balance the reams of cheap units with another mechanic. Actually Kill Points already kinda do that, adding more units to your org chart could have diminishing returns. Perhaps if all missions became "Kill Point Based" and the non-fatal objectives just awarded "Kill Point"s based on the Points value of the game. This is similar to how missions were prior to fifth, except in those eras, the value in slaying a unit was proportional to its cost.

 

I considered suggesting that any unit becomes worth additional kill points for each complete hundred or so points it cost, but then I remembered playing second ed and fielding 98 point vortex suicide bomber techmarines and that that was a bizarre interaction effect of threshold values and not good for the game. That and the dirty harlequin lists that gave them the bad name that haunted them out of third ed. Most of their army abused exemptions and their 75% IIRC character allowance to not be worth anything when they died.

 

Another interesting note about percentages, would be that yeah, GK's might only be able to squeeze in one Raider in 1500 points, but no-one else could go heavy armour heavy either.

[the jeske]

Most of their army abused exemptions and their 75% IIRC character allowance to not be worth anything when they died.

in the 2ed only the orks could do that with their boar boy characters spam and even there the warboss the mek and the runtheard with the graba stikk were worth points. eldar couldnt do it , because exarchs while awesome [fast shot d3 jump pack moving lascanon on a SH exarch with a+2inv] did cost points and their basic minimal units even when made extra small still were worth VP .

of course all armies did try to run 98 or 99 pts units[like 4 man chaos vets squads with 4 plasmaguns] , but most armies were worth VP .

I dislike kill points the way they are now . a LR should not be worth the same amount of points as 5 LSD . 4th ed had good missions and good VP system , but GW did away with that [and only thing they did is making it harder for non meq armies] .

In 40k, however, a percentile system lead to Tyranid players fielding stupid amounts of dirt-cheap Termagaunts in units 10-strong, so that no player could ever tell where one squad begins and another one ends, let alone be able to gun down every single squad

yes but If you played a proper build army you were killing around 120-140 per turn. If you play SW the only thing left on the table after turn one were the mulit wound models[and of those not always all survived].

[greatcrusade08]

sorry was that 120 termagaunts a turn or 120 points worth.. i dont know many lists that can kill that many in turn one without being too specialised to be useful as all rounder armies

[Eddie Orlock]

sorry was that 120 termagaunts a turn or 120 points worth.. i dont know many lists that can kill that many in turn one without being too specialised to be useful as all rounder armies

I think he refers to the cyclone/a-can wolf gaurd squads that could 'port in, drop half a dozen 12"? krack-missile templates and then blaze away with three sfd each on the move.

 

Probably not, actually. He probably means fiercer things. I was just a whelp and my friends weren't that sophisticated.

 

Normal games only lasted four turns though, so more things had to die per turn.

 

At least we don't have the 'Virus Outbreak' Strategy card in the modern era.

[Gentlemanloser]

I remember an old RT era game we played as kids (Time Warp and Force Rods! :)) where the whole opposing Ork army (bar 1 Boss I think) was killed due to a Virus Grenade spamm or bombardment of some kind.

 

Oh, so none of your Orks have any sort of sealed systems? They all die...

[Oiad]

Latest Stickmonkey rumours as posted on Warseer:

 

So there's been some buzz elsewhere about GK, and it's been a while for me here so here's some bits and pieces.

 

Heavy rumors of Jan release. I cannot deny this possibility, but I might be personally inclined to say March, only because some items I expect to be released arent far enough to see how they could be done for Jan release.

 

Release items:

 

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

 

 

 

Boxes:

Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???

 

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?

 

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

 

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.

 

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.

 

 

 

Blisters:

New Stern

 

New Chaplain?

 

Justicar upgrade character

 

Paladin upgrade character

 

Inquisition character

 

2 other blisters unknown contents

 

 

 

Other:

Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.

 

 

 

Rule bits, these are very subject to revision, but not for much longer, to hit a Jan/Mar window codex needs to be tied up and sent to printers soon:

 

NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same.

 

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psychers beware.

 

Not a lot of Mech. But quick to deploy.

 

Psycannon profile PT changes to 24" H3 AP3 S6, special against daemons and psychics. or if unmoving 5" blast 36" range

 

Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

 

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.

 

New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.

 

All for now.

 

enjoy

 

StickMonkey

UPDATE

 

Harry joins in:

Great rumours but there is a fair mix of stuff in your first post. (Some is accurate some misses by a mile).

Can you identify the bits that are based on first hand info, collected rumours from the mintynet and the guesswork.

Maybe some sort of colour coding. :P

Sounds like the start of a rumour catfight?..

 

The one thing I have posted about Grey Knights is they all wear artificer armour.

No ... all I have said is they wear artificer armour.

The one consistent rumour he sticks with as mentioned in previous rumours. So it will be AAGK from now on? This gets better and better... Mwhahahaha

 

And news we already knew about those Sororitas again confirmed:

The Sisters of battle project was started a fairly soon after the Grey Knights.

Not right after .... a little while after.

[Eddie Orlock]

Latest Stickmonkey rumours as posted on Warseer:

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.

Interesting, but not exactly unexpected. This does open the door to the Fratris Templar.

[greatcrusade08]

id love the AP3 psycannon.. it makes sense to give all squads psychic powers, am hoping for something to use against mech..

A chaplain would be cool too

[Gentlemanloser]

Paladin Upgrade?

 

And hopefully, we're still on course for Jan, and whatever isn't ready is left for a Stormraven/Thunderwolf Cavalry second push later.

[Justicar Valius]

He says he thinks March, he says stormraven as a box set, when rumour posters do this it means first wave normally.

[Eltnot]

This is looking a little better. A March release sounds about right to.

 

Finally this thread gets some loving.

[templargdt]

I'm still hoping for January, but so long as it comes. I keep hoping C:GK is going to be the answer to the current IG problem.

[the jeske]

sorry was that 120 termagaunts a turn or 120 points worth.. i dont know many lists that can kill that many in turn one without being too specialised to be useful as all rounder armies

 

per turn . IG run what 1 lemmens 1 demon or basil tons of weapon teams[which run separate from the squads , so you had to target them alone] , maybe a chimera. each tank IG took would give them a pre battle barrage . where it lands it kills . so if they had turn 1 it was first barrage so 4-5 blasts then 3-4 normal blasts and all the hvy bolter/auto canons shots they had . So even before the psychic phase and their Inq casting vortex it was easy to kill around 100 termagaunts.

 

 

Oh, so none of your Orks have any sort of sealed systems? They all die...

thats why every ork army was starting with taking a 10 pts vaccin wargearcard. + they had their own broken combos. The pulsa rokkits were maybe one shot , but when someone knew the range they were one of the best weapons w40k ever had in any edition.

 

 

 

 

 

If it is true that the GK codex is ment for march then it aint ready yet and god knows how it could end up looking.

[Valerian]

Wow, the first real rumors in forever in this "rumors" thread. Thanks for providing Oiad.

 

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

 

Excellent; just like the good old days. A pure Grey Knights army that retains some Inquisition aspects, but much less focus on the Inquisition than the current (3rd Edition era) codex. Just what I asked for.

 

Rule bits:

 

NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same.

 

Wow, every single NFW in the army will be a Power Weapon, with the the NFWs for all Terminators being Force Weapons? Holy cow! I never would have dreamed of that, and frankly this is the one aspect of these rumors that I am most hesitant to believe.

 

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psychers beware.

 

Excellent again; this is pretty much what I did in the Fandex, giving all squads psychic powers, and trying to emphasize disabling the enemy (particularly enemy vehicles). "Enemy psychers beware", just makes sense to me as a theme for Grey Knights.

 

Not a lot of Mech. But quick to deploy.

 

Excellent again; fits the theme, and is also what I did with Teleport Assault in the Fandex.

 

Psycannon profile PT changes to 24" H3 AP3 S6, special against daemons and psychics. or if unmoving 5" blast 36" range

 

AP3? Psycannon just got a lot nastier against MEQs, very nice. And since TDA allows them to be treated as not moving, Psycannon on TDA models will be quite nasty with the 5" Blast (assuming that is still AP3 S6). I'll be glad that I've got so many of these things.

 

Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

 

Err. Well, I don't know much about the Chaos Daemons codex, so I'll have to look at this. I hate that they kept in the old, poor mechanic with army special rules like this, but oh well.

 

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.

 

No surprise about no more Allies, and that is a good thing for the game. New "fodder" units? Wonder what those will be. To be honest, I don't want any cannon fodder in a Grey Knights list, I just want better protection (like an improved Shrouding) to keep them alive longer, and balance the high cost of each individual model.

 

New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.

 

No surprise on the Librarian/Psyker option for Dreadnoughts, since Blood Angels just got that for their Furiosos. I'm liking the large pie plate purge weapon - sounds cool. I've already got a Forgeworld Dreadnought with Psycannon arm, so I'm looking forward to that AP3 S6 pie plate at 36", on my Dreadnought, too.

 

This might all be a load of junk, but most of it looks reasonable, and I have to admit that I'm intrigued by the possibilities. I'm definitely liking the direction of these rumors. Luckily I've got another army (or 3) to play with and bide my time until the new Grey Knights are released next Jan-Mar.

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

Err. Well, I don't know much about the Chaos Daemons codex, so I'll have to look at this. I hate that they kept in the old, poor mechanic with army special rules like this, but oh well.

 

Hopefully we'll be able to effect all daemons, I'll love to see an unstable Avatar! lol!

 

As for more Psychics, I hope for something to help with Perils of the Warp tests. Rune of Warding suck. :)

[Valerian]

Err. Well, I don't know much about the Chaos Daemons codex, so I'll have to look at this. I hate that they kept in the old, poor mechanic with army special rules like this, but oh well.

 

Hopefully we'll be able to effect all daemons, I'll love to see an unstable Avatar! lol!

 

As for more Psychics, I hope for something to help with Perils of the Warp tests. Rune of Warding suck. :(

 

 

Yeah, maybe they'll keep my Aegis/Ghosthelm; what do you think?

[Oiad]

Wow, the first real rumors in forever in this "rumors" thread. Thanks for providing Oiad...

No prob's Valerian. Such news could have spawned a few threads but that's what this one is for and it was starting to stagnate without it. Have to thank Stickmonkey, it's mainly good stuff even if it doesn't seem like 5/5 brilliant news.

 

Anyone could see the loss of allies and inducted coming a mile off but I'm still disheartened that I'm going to have to break my GKs and SoBs up. SoBs make for a much better taskmaster than ISTs IMO and many of us are going to be in a predicament of whether to sell them off or (rotate/permenantly shelve) one half of our army. GW, don't make us choose...

 

The main point that narks me off is GWs insistance in focusing on anti-daemon abilities. We know GKs hunt daemons primarily but not completely. All it takes is a different writer to come along a rewrite a completely different set of rules for daemons to make these redundant again. It would make much more sense if they took them in a similar direction as 7eAL is in his project - to make the rules more universal with the weaknesses of daemons as the inspiration. For example, while PWs are great I can't help but think that (even along with the 4+ to wound bonus against daemons) it's a step backward as a strength bonus is much universal. Everyone has a toughness value but not everyone has armour, or at least one of significance. Daemons foremost rarely use armour so it doesn't make much sense... ...I hope it's one of the rules they change even if it seems to be consistant in every rumour.

[greatcrusade08]

having every GK with a PW will be awesome, might counter balance the high price and low number of attacks..

i wonder if they will keep true grit and the strength bonus of the NFW?