=I= Coming in 2010?

[GeoWolf]

Ok, I can see how sisters would be seperate force, but the inquisition? What do you think they would do for them to stand on their own?

[Bishoujo]

Ok, I can see how sisters would be seperate force, but the inquisition? What do you think they would do for them to stand on their own?

 

Most likely, we will still see some Inquisition presence in the Grey Knights book. Probably an Inquisitor or 2, maybe assassins, and some sort of IST type unit.

 

Hopefully, we won't see any Inquisition in the new Sisters book.

[Eddie Orlock]

Ok, I can see how sisters would be seperate force, but the inquisition? What do you think they would do for them to stand on their own?

Well, you could start by taking all the non-PA elements of the current inquisition books. Inquisitor lords, Arco Flagelents, Assassins, Death Cultists, Daemon Hosts, storm troopers, and penetiant engines and orbital strikes, and maybe even excorsists depending on your point of view. Throw in some admech stuff, maybe teleporting troops as fast attack, similar to Warp Spiders and you have the skeleton of a list. Flesh out from there.

 

I do hope that some of the zany ecclesiarchy units make it in. I would like to keep playing my arco's even if they are of dubious utility a lot of the time.

[Oiad]

Ok, I can see how sisters would be seperate force, but the inquisition? What do you think they would do for them to stand on their own?

I wasn't excluding Grey Knights calling it Codex: Inquisition. It could be Codex: Grey Knights (which would better suit Grey Knights only, which this won't be) or Codex: Daemonhunters. Same for Codex: Ecclesiarchy - Codex: Sisters of Battle, Codex: Witchhunters, whatever floats your boat. Personally, I prefer the one's I've highlighted regardless of their exclusive connotations and provided an opinion based on all the hearsay so far. Don't take it as a reliable rumour. Leave that to Stickmonkey or Harry.

[Valerian]

No, this was my point. Apparently, they won't have S6 weapons anymore. Imagine Sanguinary Guard minus the jumpacks, masks and master-crafting, but with some flimsy additional rules and long range stormbolters, then you're mostly there. The price will go up in any case to at least 30pts+.

 

I just looked through that whole thread on Warseer and neither stickmonkey nor Harry said anything about a change in Strength for the Nemesis Force Weapons, just that all standard Grey Knights would have NFWs with the Power Weapon effect (whereas now only the Justicar has that), and all Terminators would have the Force Weapon effect (instead of just the Grand Master). If they all become just S4, then they'd just be standard Power or Force Weapons; what would differentiate them as special "Nemesis" weapons?

 

Some people in the Warseer thread started talking about S4, but nobody with rumors actual mentioned it.

 

V

[Oiad]

Perhaps, but there were some similar rumours a while back suggesting that they get a 4+ to wound (or was it a 2+) bonus against daemons and that s6 was out. It would be great if someone could get the sources on Warseer to confirm it. Anyone already a member?

[Gentlemanloser]

A Power Weapon that wounds the Avatar on a 2+? :D

[boreas]

Wwll this, from Stickmonkey:

standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same

 

Seems to say that NFW is a power (no more, no less) with special vs Daemons (so a PW vs everyone, maybe poison vs daemons?), while TDA NFW will be FW (no more, no less, once again) also with a special vs daemons. That seem to say "bye bye St6!". Also, SM hinted at the GKs getting a "space marine sergeant stats". So, bye bye WS5, but 3 attacks would be cool. If that mean we GKs get to have the same stats as Honour Guards (4-4-4-4-1-4-3-10-2+), we can expect the same price (35 pts). If you add the "Aegis" and "shrouding", and you change the bolter/boltpistol for a stormbolter and still keep it at 35 points its very good. Now, for 40pts, you have the sanguinary guards. Their weapons have a better AP and the PW is mastercrafted. They have Death Masks and jump packs. But one very important things is: they cannot hold objective! They are (possibly) a bit better, point for point, but as far as winning the game, being a Troop is worth a lot. Also, don't forget that units can't be compared "in a void". I'd rather have a squad of 35pts GKs and 2 squads of 7-8 pts veterans loaded with meltaguns/plasmaguns than 1 squad of 40pts Sanguinary guards and a squad of 17 points Tactical BA.

 

Now, losing the St6 on the GKT, that would hurt. A squad of 5 guys with St 4 FW is not that good. I'd rather keep the GTGM with his St6 FW and the other GKTs at St 6 PW, even while losing the retinue rule...

[andrewm9]

Ok, I can see how sisters would be seperate force, but the inquisition? What do you think they would do for them to stand on their own?

Well, you could start by taking all the non-PA elements of the current inquisition books. Inquisitor lords, Arco Flagelents, Assassins, Death Cultists, Daemon Hosts, storm troopers, and penetiant engines and orbital strikes, and maybe even excorsists depending on your point of view. Throw in some admech stuff, maybe teleporting troops as fast attack, similar to Warp Spiders and you have the skeleton of a list. Flesh out from there.

 

I do hope that some of the zany ecclesiarchy units make it in. I would like to keep playing my arco's even if they are of dubious utility a lot of the time.

Arco-flagellants and Penitent Engines would really belong with the Sisterhood as they are from the Ecclesiarchy not the Inquisition. Exorcists are most certainly attached to the Sisters as that is their vehicle alone. That would leave the Inquisitors, Assassins, Death Cultists, Daemon-hosts, Storm Troopers, and the Orbital Strike for the Inqusition book.

[Eddie Orlock]

Arco-flagellants and Penitent Engines would really belong with the Sisterhood as they are from the Ecclesiarchy not the Inquisition. Exorcists are most certainly attached to the Sisters as that is their vehicle alone. That would leave the Inquisitors, Assassins, Death Cultists, Daemon-hosts, Storm Troopers, and the Orbital Strike for the Inqusition book.

So, is it a sisters book, or an Ecclesiarchy book? If we go for the latter, we can start adding back in many of the annexed things in the current book. Would that I Had my book on hand where I could show you chapter and verse the reference to non-sororita crewed excorsists. It s the Immolator that is sisters alone. Though, per old guard fluff, the technologies are also used in the hellhound, but shush, don't tell the girls.

 

You might add in some Xeno mercenaries to continue on with radicalism. Maybe the Fraal could put in an appearance. I'd also be keen to start attaching previously lost to the game admech elements, maybe some electro priests.

[Valerian]

Wwll this, from Stickmonkey:

standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same

 

Seems to say that NFW is a power (no more, no less) with special vs Daemons (so a PW vs everyone, maybe poison vs daemons?), while TDA NFW will be FW (no more, no less, once again) also with a special vs daemons. That seem to say "bye bye St6!". Also, SM hinted at the GKs getting a "space marine sergeant stats". So, bye bye WS5, but 3 attacks would be cool. If that mean we GKs get to have the same stats as Honour Guards (4-4-4-4-1-4-3-10-2+), we can expect the same price (35 pts). If you add the "Aegis" and "shrouding", and you change the bolter/boltpistol for a stormbolter and still keep it at 35 points its very good. Now, for 40pts, you have the sanguinary guards. Their weapons have a better AP and the PW is mastercrafted. They have Death Masks and jump packs. But one very important things is: they cannot hold objective! They are (possibly) a bit better, point for point, but as far as winning the game, being a Troop is worth a lot. Also, don't forget that units can't be compared "in a void". I'd rather have a squad of 35pts GKs and 2 squads of 7-8 pts veterans loaded with meltaguns/plasmaguns than 1 squad of 40pts Sanguinary guards and a squad of 17 points Tactical BA.

 

Now, losing the St6 on the GKT, that would hurt. A squad of 5 guys with St 4 FW is not that good. I'd rather keep the GTGM with his St6 FW and the other GKTs at St 6 PW, even while losing the retinue rule...

 

Boreas, he didn't say stats were the same as Sergeants, he said something like "similar to" or some such (forgot exact wording), but definitely enough wiggle room to keep WS5, and get 2 base Attacks.

 

Regarding NFW, he just said that there wouldn't be the different powers based on ranks anymore and that all PAGK get Power Weapons with special versus Daemons, etc. Etc. This could go either way, since the old Strength bonus wasn't mentioned explicitly as going or staying.

 

We'll see, I suppose. I like the all Articifer Armour and Power Weapon load, but will miss S6, if it indeed has gone.

 

V

[Valerian]

Good news clarification from Stikmonkey:

 

From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

[Oiad]

Wow, now I hope these rumours hold water:

NFW = S6 PW at minimum, with extra daemon-handling capabilities

2A = likely

AA = All around?

:o

 

Cost = I shudder to think of it...

 

...Well you can't have it both ways and we collect GKs knowing that. Still that pretty top-end stuff that'll make others worry/jealous. Besides, must remember to add salt when handling these rumours.

[Gentlemanloser]

Awesome Clarification!

 

But one very important things is: they cannot hold objective!

 

Dante disagree's with you. :o

[Judanas]

So, is it a sisters book, or an Ecclesiarchy book? If we go for the latter, we can start adding back in many of the annexed things in the current book. Would that I Had my book on hand where I could show you chapter and verse the reference to non-sororita crewed excorsists. It s the Immolator that is sisters alone. Though, per old guard fluff, the technologies are also used in the hellhound, but shush, don't tell the girls.

 

You might add in some Xeno mercenaries to continue on with radicalism. Maybe the Fraal could put in an appearance. I'd also be keen to start attaching previously lost to the game admech elements, maybe some electro priests.

 

I'm pretty sure Exorcists are a Sister of Battle exclusive thing. It was the deal with the Mechanicus, Sisters get exclusive use of it.

[JamesI]

If they are +2 strength, 2+ armor, all power weapons, the cost is now getting back up into the 35-40 points per model range.

[boreas]

Dante disagree's with you. ;)

 

Haha, I know, but I don't count taking an almost-land-raider-costing SC like a good way to make that unit capable of taking objective. With Dante and 7 guys, you're looking at 25% of your 2000pts list!

 

Now, GKs with St6 PW, Stormbolters, Fearless, AA, Aegis and Shrouding? Ouch, I'm looking at an Honour Guard with relic blade, but no SB (pistol/BP instead), ATSKNF instead of fearless, AA, no Aegis and no Shrouding but Honour or Death (re-roll to hit and to wound vs Independent Character, pretty good). Now, that guy is 60pts.

 

As Wolf Guard w/ Frost Blade (+1 St PW) and stormbolter, regular PA, Acute Sense (meh), Counter-Attack (good) and ATSKNF (equivalent to Fearless as far as I'm concerned) is 41pts. He cannot (most of the time :P ) hold objectives.

 

A Sanguinary guard has a better AP, but 12" range SB, has a MC PW, a Death Masks and jump packs. He cannot (most of the time :P ) hold objectives. 40pts.

 

Right now, our Justicar is pretty much the equivalent of what the basic GK will become, and he's 50pts. That's overcosted. But I can't see anything less than 40 pts a piece for those guys. At 40pts/GK, a squad of five would probably kill a Trygon. A squad of 8 could go Head-to-Head with Ku-Gath or a Bloodthirster.

 

Oh, one thing: Harry is not 100% sure on the AA. Could very well be an Aegis Armour. In a way, that would be okay if it help bring the points down across the board, thus allowing more models. After all, in most situation, you're better off with 15% more models that save on 3+ (vs PW and MC it's better. vs Battlecannon, not so much, although you can usually get a cover save).

[Gentlemanloser]

To be honest, I'd prefer the AA of the SG. 3+ is just too fragile for something that costs the same as a Terminator. At least 2+ lets you save versus the new Psycannons, and Dark Reapers. :P

 

If we're back to S6 Power Weapons, I'd still hope for a price tag of 35 points before upgrades. I'd live with 40 (the cost of a Terminator). But then if our Termies still only cost 46 points, I'd want to only ever use them (if we get a Belail/Logan option), as it looks certain we'll get a Storm Raven to Transport them.

 

It's really the S Priest FC and FNP that make the S Guard 'zomg amazing!' :P Hopefully GK will get some sort of acces to FC, or they will always lose out in assault to 'Letters and Bangles (and the like) going at I5 with Power Weapons (Unless we have a sneanky rule to stop other people benefiting from FC! :P).

 

But our real issue is going to be the Cost of our PA/AAGK compared to our TAGK (or GKT :P). If the PA/AAGK aren't significantly cheaper, it becomes a limitation to choose them over our TDA bretheren.

 

And when you can have a SB/PW Termie for only 33 points (WGT), I'm sure we can shave some points off somewhere! ;)

[andrewm9]

I'm pretty sure Exorcists are a Sister of Battle exclusive thing. It was the deal with the Mechanicus, Sisters get exclusive use of it.

 

Yeah they are since the crew is listed as Battle Sisters. However the rules do not prohibit them being taken if there are no Sisters in the army. That may be what he was referring to. Immolators can only be taken if Sisters are part of your army. The pipe-organ missile launcher though is draped with Sister and Ecclesiarchy icongraphy.

[andrewm9]

So, is it a sisters book, or an Ecclesiarchy book? If we go for the latter, we can start adding back in many of the annexed things in the current book. Would that I Had my book on hand where I could show you chapter and verse the reference to non-sororita crewed excorsists. It s the Immolator that is sisters alone. Though, per old guard fluff, the technologies are also used in the hellhound, but shush, don't tell the girls.

 

You might add in some Xeno mercenaries to continue on with radicalism. Maybe the Fraal could put in an appearance. I'd also be keen to start attaching previously lost to the game admech elements, maybe some electro priests.

 

Well that's a good question. The original Sisters codex had all the Church guys in it so I don't see why they wouldn't bring them back. The Sisterhood and Ecclesiarchy are very closely linked since the Sisters are the milita

[HERO]

I think PAGK will have Aegis Armor and not Artificer.

 

Here's why:

 

1. Artificier will put them into the 40ppm range.. which is unreliable as objective holders.

2. Troop choices are not super expensive.

3. Aegis Armor is also AA armor... so it coulda been a mistake in understanding.

4. Having Artificer will make Terminators look attractive.. and everyone wants more GKT!

 

With that in mind, I'm pretty sure it will remain as Aegis.

[Marmande]

Why not both? I think we're trying to determine the shape of an iceburg only from the top, if you know what I mean.

[chaplain belisarius]

but isnt that half the fun? :D

 

I just want plastic sob...and maybe some plastic adeptus arbites? (i can dream cant i?)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I don't like the rumers, the reducing the range of the pcycannon is terrible, and AP3 is rubbish, everyone gets a cover save now, look what happened to the poor thousand sons, and only S4, looks like the Grey Knights will only be silver marines then ;) plus we struggle with walkers as it is, being S4 and relying on grenades, more just silver marines, I am sorry but it looks like a lot of the individualailty of the Grey Knights is being jetisoned, and with paying for Anti Daemon rules, when how often have you seen a DOC 40K player, I have played 1 once, in 5 years. I really hope these rumers are not true, I would rather we got the Dark Eldar treatment than this.

[Oiad]

Don't worry, apparently GK's are still S6 in assault and count as having PWs. Imagine whole troop squads made up of fearless SM sergeants with relic blades and stormbolters - sounds good huh? Plus, I think Stickmonkey made an error saying H3 in describing psycannons and mean't this:

PAGK Moves = 24"/S6/AP3/Assault3

PAGK does not move = 36"/S6/AP3/Heavy3 & Blast

 

So really it's a complete buff, not a slight nerf. It even has the ability to now take on cover saves, which is great for GKTs with their relentless USR. I'd imagine Incinerators also take on cover saves as awesomely as usual. I do agree that it's worrying that GW may focus on expensive, yet ultimately worthless anti-daemon abilities. And don't worry, I'm sure DE will have their day within the next half-year, whether before or after GKs. I'd rather before too and that's coming from an =][= fan.