=I= Coming in 2010?

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've played a fair bit of Apocalypse, especially in the various Lucky 13's storylines (which were well...barely that). In my experience, it's a blast, but there are numerous differences in mindset that have to be taken with you.

 

First, even moreso than a regular game it's keep your mind on the objectives. When whole squads can go up in flames in a single shot, well.. yeah. Kill count is meaningless.

 

Second, it's about fun. Things can get so wacky crazy just take an army that'll be either fun to use, or fun to play against. I often had all footslogger armies, with the Inquisition and various Imperial Guard forces I have, or a scratch built Warhound Titan to help provide super heavy support. Strength D weapons are crazy cool, but at the same time you need to have some to combat things like Vindicator squadrons, hordes of Brass Scorpions, other Titans.. the guys around here had some crazy amounts of tanks and models acquired over years :)

 

Third, it really doesn't belong in a pick up game or at a GW store. Trying to play even in 3 or 4 hours means two, three turns if you're lucky and that's with approximately say 8000 points a side with 3 or 4 players each team. Where I see it belonging is a regular club of buddies, with it being played over a weekend of a day or two.. at a more controled pace. It belongs to tell stories, perhaps as a climatic finish of a map based campaign.

 

As an example, imagine the following:

"Alright, today the forces of order are going to attack the stronghold of the evil heretic Busterus Rabiticus, which you've been moving up to for the last two months. The strategic assets in play for this mission are this: The defender has barricades and bunkers naturally, and a disruption beacon. You all have a flank march of up to 1000 points that can come through this sewer system, exiting here, here or here. In addition, you have the drop pod assault of the Ultramarines chapter reinforcing your own guys. The defender has first turn.. everyone setup."

 

This sort of game is so large, so massive that a regular game of 40k can't describe it.. but the Apocalypse ruleset is perfect. You organize it, plan it, prep it, then run it with a regular group of folks. This helps keep down the crazy crazy and keep up the fun and awesome.

 

On that note, we should really make a second topic if we want to discuss Apocalypse in too much depth... please remember to sorta mostly keep this topic sorta on track :)

[the jeske]

Jeske,

 

That was just one single army list used in one Play Test game. Assuming that dozens of such games are played, with as many combinations as possible, against as many types of opponents as possible. I could easily see a list used that just happened to not have taken any of the available Heavy Support choices, especially if the player wanted to try something specific.

 

V

 

ok I dont know how much you know about GW "playtesting" first of all the "testers" get pre made armies , worse pre made units. I have never heard about playtesters getting an army from[or rather cards with unit set up stats and gear to be more precies] without fast attack/hvy/elite.

If its not an official GW play test game , then it may as well be the testing of a home grown list.

[greatcrusade08]

ok I dont know how much you know about GW "playtesting" first of all the "testers" get pre made armies , worse pre made units. I have never heard about playtesters getting an army from[or rather cards with unit set up stats and gear to be more precies] without fast attack/hvy/elite.

If its not an official GW play test game , then it may as well be the testing of a home grown list.

 

:) isnt it possible that the 'officlal' playtesters just didny get a list with hvy support.. i mean how many GK lists do you see with HS anyway (or FA come to think of it).. the best we could do is pull out some raider spam lists and even then they can be taken as dedicated transports.

 

I hate to sound rude Jeske, but just becuase you havent heard of it, doesnt mean it doesnt happen..

[jakehunter52]

...I think the Terminators were 350, but the basic Troop Grey Knights were just 300, so you could squeeze in 2 of those and the cheapest HQ for right at 750. It'll be hard, obviously, and you are correct that they will really be geared toward higher points level games.

You're quite correct. Of course, 11 models, with no options, including no transport (unless you count deep-striking) sounds like a challenge I love. [no sarcasm]

 

This is probably because we are about to experience a change of definition for who the Grey Knights are. If these rumours hold true, we are to be the absolute embodiment of elite, something that makes your opponent groan when you put it out on the table. Traditionally, I would say Terminators, Wraithguard or the like would hold this title but now our basic troops are going to cost 50% more than these former heavyweights. The fact we are given the option to build an army on this principle is insane (and fun)!

 

But remember, we will not be restricted by this, there are going to be low cost troops as well (stormtroopers I assume still). So we might as see a shift in army builds, the initial beachhead established by the =I= soldiers and then the grey knights to carry the rest of the day to victory. Who knows? It's still too early to tell. I just hope the designer teams realize the implications of giving us such an epic army...

 

Btw,do we know if they are going to give us eternal warrior in the same fashion as daemons?

[Gentlemanloser]

Here's an outhere idea for cheap disposable GK troops, as retaining IST seems to be the easy, and frankly boring option.

 

Exorcist 'scout' Initiates, with a Repentia Mistress like GK overseer. :(

 

Low cost Troops with 4+ save, WS/BS 3, Shotguns etc. But still with an Inquisitorial/Marine twist.

 

Probably never happen! :)

[Oiad]

Why would they need a Repentia Mistress? Some fantasy of yours Gentlemenloser? :)

 

Exorcists will probably stay within the C:SM. Shame as the solitary entry doesn't do them justice.

 

This is probably because we are about to experience a change of definition for who the Grey Knights are. If these rumours hold true, we are to be the absolute embodiment of elite, something that makes your opponent groan when you put it out on the table. Traditionally, I would say Terminators, Wraithguard or the like would hold this title but now our basic troops are going to cost 50% more than these former heavyweights. The fact we are given the option to build an army on this principle is insane (and fun)!

 

But remember, we will not be restricted by this, there are going to be low cost troops as well (stormtroopers I assume still). So we might as see a shift in army builds, the initial beachhead established by the =I= soldiers and then the grey knights to carry the rest of the day to victory. Who knows? It's still too early to tell. I just hope the designer teams realize the implications of giving us such an epic army...

 

Btw,do we know if they are going to give us eternal warrior in the same fashion as daemons?

Oh, we won't forget it as long as you remember that there are =][= players out there who will only want to play pure GK. Not that I'm a purist myself... :(

 

Daemons have fluffy reasons to have EW, which I think are justifiied. They were only scary on a first glance. Grey Knights don't have such abilities, though if TGS is accurate then Adamantium Cloaks will be handy. Personally, I don't believe the TGS campaigndex is. While certain aspects of will no doubt be accurate it's too inconsistent or heavily reliant on C:SM to be the full picture. Grey Knights are just marines after all, even if they're more talented doesn't mean their vitality should be doubled.

[Valerian]

ok I dont know how much you know about GW "playtesting" first of all the "testers" get pre made armies , worse pre made units. I have never heard about playtesters getting an army from[or rather cards with unit set up stats and gear to be more precies] without fast attack/hvy/elite.

 

Jeske, no, nobody has ever explained GW's traditional playtesting process to me, but if that is how they do it, no wonder they never discover the "broken" stuff in new lists until they hit the streets, and real players with access to the whole document start trying to figure out those things. I can see how providing set unit cards to keep folks "blind" to most options and the "big picture" would maintain secrecy (like compartmentalized information in the Intel world), but it isn't the best way to make a good product.

 

This is probably because we are about to experience a change of definition for who the Grey Knights are.

 

Concur with everything that you said.

 

V

[number6]

Grey Knights are just marines after all, even if they're more talented doesn't mean their vitality should be doubled.

You know, it really wasn't that long ago that Thousand Sons had two wounds apiece. :) That was a "normal, basic" Marine Troops choice for the v3.5 CSM codex....

 

I agree that multi-wound GKs are unlikely. But it isn't totally out of the question. Frankly, I would prefer that to any kind of invul save or even FNP, too.

[Oiad]

Come off it number6, Thousand Son Marines had a valid reason to be different, thank you Rubic of Ahriman. Though I'm not sure 2W was the way to represent their unique situation... :P

...Perhaps that's why it was retconned. Physically, Grey Knights are fully marine by comparison, not ghosts in a shell. Still, I wouldn't be against it and yes, it has a slight possibilty of happening. Heck, GW aren't known for consistency so why not? *shrugs again*

[Gentlemanloser]

Why would they need a Repentia Mistress? Some fantasy of yours Gentlemenloser?

 

LoL! ;)

 

Well, a bit of that (who doesn't like whips!), and a bit of the new Exorcists having to be field tested with GK presence. Normal 'marine' Exorcists would have already been purged by the GK and tested to make sure they weren't corrupted in any way, but Scouts could represent fresh recuits that have just been exorcised, and need to be closely watched in battle by the GK.

 

Would you really want to let some ex posessed supersoliders lose on thier own? :P

[Marmande]

While I wouldn't agree with the 2 wound idea, one way to look at it would be that fielding Grey Knights is like fielding an entire army of characters.

[jakehunter52]

Daemons have fluffy reasons to have EW, which I think are justifiied. They were only scary on a first glance. Grey Knights don't have such abilities, though if TGS is accurate then Adamantium Cloaks will be handy. Personally, I don't believe the TGS campaigndex is. While certain aspects of will no doubt be accurate it's too inconsistent or heavily reliant on C:SM to be the full picture. Grey Knights are just marines after all, even if they're more talented doesn't mean their vitality should be doubled.

 

I had forgotten about those cloaks, my apologies. Frankly, I do hope that they at least provide that option. It would make sense as a game mechanic, otherwise we will find ourselves extremely vulnerable to AP 2 pie plates and anti-tank weaponry (which has become all the more abundant). Not only that, it would fit in well in the form of background. It could be something epic sounding as:

 

The Emperor calls upon all to serve Him in the betterment of Humanity and they do so on varying degree. To be a Space Marine is nothing short of perfection, so difficult is their task. All the more so is that to be a Grey Knight, to endure the 666 trials, to keep faith in the face of corruption, to face the Imperium's greatest enemy and be victorious time and time again. Those few who are able to take up such a monumental task are destined for greatness in the Emperor's eyes and have His Blessing to guide them through their battles. As a result, all Grey Knights have Eternal Warrior special rule.

 

Or the superior technology afforded by being so close to Mars (though I like the epic sounding version better). Eh, who knows....

[Eltnot]

I'd rather not see GK get Eternal Warrior. Daemons being creatures of the Warp makes it understandable, but far to many units now have the EW special rule. Giving it to too many units makes weaponry like D-Cannons, Wraithcannons, and Force Weapons, a lot less useful then they should be.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I just want the codex now...not a pure Grey Knights, but Codex: Daemonhunters. The way it should be.

[Brovius]

:( isnt it possible that the 'officlal' playtesters just didny get a list with hvy support.. i mean how many GK lists do you see with HS anyway (or FA come to think of it).. the best we could do is pull out some raider spam lists and even then they can be taken as dedicated transports.

 

I hate to sound rude Jeske, but just becuase you havent heard of it, doesnt mean it doesnt happen..

 

TBH, you can't have a competitive GK list without Heavy Support. You can get away with it for Fast Attack, because we have one terrible choice. I've been playing pure Grey Knights for 2 years, and i never go to any 2000 point battle without 2 Godhammers an a Crusader.

[Valerian]

:) isnt it possible that the 'officlal' playtesters just didny get a list with hvy support.. i mean how many GK lists do you see with HS anyway (or FA come to think of it).. the best we could do is pull out some raider spam lists and even then they can be taken as dedicated transports.

 

I hate to sound rude Jeske, but just becuase you havent heard of it, doesnt mean it doesnt happen..

 

TBH, you can't have a competitive GK list without Heavy Support.

 

Sure, using the current codex, but in using the upcoming codex (which is what the Playtest was supposedly for), who knows if the Heavy Support choices are necessary.

 

We'll find out one day.

[greatcrusade08]

I agree that raider spam is about as competative as we can go with the current list, but my point was that they dont have to be HS as they can be taken as dedicated transports.

 

also note that the 'playtest' list had a strom raven which is as close to a LR as you can get (without getting a raider) and a razorback for the heavy weapons platforms. which is one of the other reasons we use them.

 

I guess what im saying is that its easy to take 3 raiders without using a HS slot

[andrewm9]

I agree that raider spam is about as competative as we can go with the current list, but my point was that they dont have to be HS as they can be taken as dedicated transports.

 

also note that the 'playtest' list had a strom raven which is as close to a LR as you can get (without getting a raider) and a razorback for the heavy weapons platforms. which is one of the other reasons we use them.

 

I guess what im saying is that its easy to take 3 raiders without using a HS slot

 

The only way DH can take dedicated transport Land Raiders is for Inquisitors only and only of the standard variety. Each Inquisitor can have a single Land Raider transport if he takes a retinue. Those are additional costs in my book. Those will be eating into you HQ and Elite slots. Each Elite you use is one less you can use for GKT's. I'm not a DH player but do you think Inquistorial retinues are all that good? At least enough to be spammed? A single retinue I guess coudl be pretty useful obviously since it is the reason so many people raid the DH codex for mystics, but is it good enough to do 2 or 3 times or more?

[Uncle Mel]

35 pts or so for an =][= + 2 mystics is a must in my book (if you don't play pure GK like me) so that's your =][= + retinue

[number6]

While I wouldn't agree with the 2 wound idea, one way to look at it would be that fielding Grey Knights is like fielding an entire army of characters.

I doubt GW will do this. Space Wolves have already cornered the market on that theme.

[andrewm9]

35 pts or so for an =][= + 2 mystics is a must in my book (if you don't play pure GK like me) so that's your =][= + retinue

 

One Inquisitor with nothing but carapace armor and I mean nothing since he has no standard weapons either and 2 mystics is slightly cheaper than 35 points but he has but one purpose on the table. Other than takign the Inquisitor is their a point to takign multiple ones other than just Land Raiders? If thats the only reason I would suspect you are better off just taking the Grey Knight hero and buying from Heavy Support especially since it opens up the option to have a Crusader (and a Redeemer if you use Imperial Armour). The Inquisitor with mystics is never bad unles your opponent never deep strikes with his army (like me with my Sisters army).

 

I just didn't see the point past the first one and that's what I meant to say.

[Valerian]

I agree that raider spam is about as competative as we can go with the current list, but my point was that they dont have to be HS as they can be taken as dedicated transports.

 

also note that the 'playtest' list had a strom raven which is as close to a LR as you can get (without getting a raider) and a razorback for the heavy weapons platforms. which is one of the other reasons we use them.

 

I guess what im saying is that its easy to take 3 raiders without using a HS slot

 

The only way DH can take dedicated transport Land Raiders is for Inquisitors only and only of the standard variety.

 

Andrew, you are talking about the old codex, while most everyone else is talking about the new one. Who knows what units will be able to take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport in the upcoming codex? It'll likely be more than just standard Inquisitors, though, and I believe that was part of greatcrusade's point.

 

Anyway, this whole chain on Heavy Support choices started because The Jeske didn't believe that the purported Playtesting list, provided by Stikmonkey was legitimate, because it didn't include any HS choices. You are either going to believe in Stikmonkey, or you are not. Harry has already confirmed that at least some (though not all) of Stik's rumours are accurate, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Also, as greatcrusade pointed out, that Playtesting list had both a Stormraven (as Fast Attack) and a Razorback, so maybe they just didn't need any HS choices to make that particular scenario a viable Playtest.

 

So, let's forget what we know about the old dex, and focus on the new one in this ungainly rumors thread.

 

V

[the jeske]

huh.gif isnt it possible that the 'officlal' playtesters just didny get a list with hvy support..

not possible. you dont test armies [since H-man/Chambers left] anymore you test units . They dont check what happens if an army runes 2RP 15 RL LF 4GH melta rhino units . they get a pre made wolf cav [sometimes even without the name it is going to end up with] , one unit of LF one unit of GH one unit of BC etc. Because of that is impossible for a tester to get an army with spamed choices .

 

 

I can see how providing set unit cards to keep folks "blind" to most options and the "big picture" would maintain secrecy (like compartmentalized information in the Intel world), but it isn't the best way to make a good product.

welcome to WFB/W40k desing team mindset.

 

 

 

Sure, using the current codex, but in using the upcoming codex (which is what the Playtest was supposedly for), who knows if the Heavy Support choices are necessary.

you would need to get either assault anti tank with effective range of 18-24" or anti tank in form of HQ/FA or troops slots. so yeah if they make psycanons str 7-8 with 2-3 shots per weapon with 2 per squads + on HQs then yeah you can do anti tank. but what is the chance of GW doing that ?

 

 

isnt it possible that the 'officlal' playtesters just didny get a list with hvy support.. i mean how many GK lists do you see with HS anyway (or FA come to think of it).. the best we could do is pull out some raider spam lists and even then they can be taken as dedicated transports.

 

I hate to sound rude Jeske, but just becuase you havent heard of it, doesnt mean it doesnt happen..

It has nothing to do with what I did or did not hear[and If someone actualy did work as a GW playtester for the GH codex and the leak was made public he would be saying good bye to his job now] . Am talking about how GW playtest looks like . It is impossible durning the testing to get a 2x unit 2x unit Y 3x unit Z type of list. .Ergo if the OP says he saw a list like that being tested it can either be A false or B the GW DT changed the way they test codex [which means this is a totaly new codex as testing goes , because BA were tested just like I say].

 

 

 

so maybe they just didn't need any HS choices to make that particular scenario a viable Playtest.

only GW does not test their armies to be viable . they test their unit choices for veraity not for playabilty. If they did it otherwise there would be no units like normal vanguard in sm dex , the nids wordings etc.

[Paladin_61RUS]

New rumours by Stickmonkey:

 

Corrected Psycannon profile (updated with new info):

24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.

or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

 

Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.

 

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.

 

 

Disclaimer: Please remember these are PT notes. These may not be in the final codex.

[Brovius]

I highly doubt the ability for all Grey Knights to re-roll failed saves.

My question to StickMonkey is, how many Special characters can re-roll all failed saves? None IIRC, so why should an entire army get it?

It's something not even Mat Ward would give to his favorite Chapter's leader, why would the entire Grey Knights army get such a ridiculously powerful ability like that?