=I= Coming in 2010?

[Validar]

interresting psycannon profile, I like the extra damage vs. psykers!

 

I don't like the armor rule, though... It seems quite imba against weapons with AP4 and above, but is useless against AP3 and below (unless the knights get some sort of invul. save to go with it)

[chaplain belisarius]

I hope you GK players are excited...psycannons look very good now, dont they? :P

[Gentlemanloser]

It's seems ok (that armour reroll is quite frankly awesome, and I can see that over 2W now).

 

As for the Pinning, as my Daemon playing mate pointed out to me from the TF rules for 'psyk-out';

 

"It casues Pinning to Daemons? Well all Daemones are fearless, so that's useless..."

 

(I know the rumour above only mentions Psychers, but we have to remember that *no* Dameons are Psychers any more...)

[Bishoujo]

I highly doubt the ability for all Grey Knights to re-roll failed saves.

My question to StickMonkey is, how many Special characters can re-roll all failed saves? None IIRC, so why should an entire army get it?

It's something not even Mat Ward would give to his favorite Chapter's leader, why would the entire Grey Knights army get such a ridiculously powerful ability like that?

 

Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. If the rumors of us only fielding 30-40 models in a 2000 points game are true, then GK obviously need some sort of extra durability. There has been talks of everyone having 2+ saves, or everyone having multiple wounds, etc. I think this might work out to be more fair, since anything that would negate your save in the first place still negates it. It gives GK some extra durability, without diminishing the value of the other army's wargear (power weapons, plasma/melta, etc).

 

I think it's a similar approach to the "everyone has 2+ armor" idea, but that it benefits the entire army instead of just PAGK. As cool as it would be to have multiple wounds on our troops, I think that it would just be too overpowered, even with a cost increase.

 

Just my opinion. :P

[HERO]

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.

 

This looks more likely than W2.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think my mates actually prefer the idea of 2W GK to Storm Shield wielding TDA/AA with a reroll on either 2+ or 3++...

 

;)

 

Me, I can't wait for Storm Shield wielding TDA/AA with a reroll on either 2+ or 3++! :P

 

And would be a good inidcation of how a 5 man squad could 'tarpit' an Ork squad without either being wiped out, or wiping out the Orks...

[NExOBLIVISCARIS]

Has there been any rumors on assassins? or am i the only one that like the assassins.

[Eltnot]

The ability to reroll failed saves, particularly when you can have a 2+ save from terminator armour seems a little unlikely. It would also suck wang when you go against armies that can bypass your save (like Sisters of Battle using Divine Guidance, Howling Banshees, etc).

 

The Psycannon looks pretty darn nasty but if it is pointed correctly than I'm okay with it.

[raverrn]

The ability to reroll failed saves, particularly when you can have a 2+ save from terminator armour seems a little unlikely. It would also suck wang when you go against armies that can bypass your save (like Sisters of Battle using Divine Guidance, Howling Banshees, etc).

 

The Psycannon looks pretty darn nasty but if it is pointed correctly than I'm okay with it.

 

I don't know, the large blast is going to be brutal against some units - anything daemon, harelquins - and the straight shots will ID eldar with no saves and do a number on Thousand Suns and Legion of the Damned. It just seems really, really, really good.

[Oiad]

The ability to reroll failed saves, particularly when you can have a 2+ save from terminator armour seems a little unlikely. It would also suck wang when you go against armies that can bypass your save (like Sisters of Battle using Divine Guidance, Howling Banshees, etc)...

Most armies can get ahold of some good AP2 these days, which would negate it. As already pointed out this looks like an attempt to avoid the whole W2 thing, for now. I don't mind it but I'm also sure it'll catch on like wildfire once printed, with subsequent codicies also using the trick , or at least to a lesser extent.

 

Has there been any rumors on assassins? or am i the only one that like the assassins.

Rumours - yes. Apparently they'll be more flexible with their options. Yet again referencing TGS campaign PDF there maybe more types of assasin too.

[Brovius]

I highly doubt the ability for all Grey Knights to re-roll failed saves.

My question to StickMonkey is, how many Special characters can re-roll all failed saves? None IIRC, so why should an entire army get it?

It's something not even Mat Ward would give to his favorite Chapter's leader, why would the entire Grey Knights army get such a ridiculously powerful ability like that?

 

Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. If the rumors of us only fielding 30-40 models in a 2000 points game are true, then GK obviously need some sort of extra durability. There has been talks of everyone having 2+ saves, or everyone having multiple wounds, etc. I think this might work out to be more fair, since anything that would negate your save in the first place still negates it. It gives GK some extra durability, without diminishing the value of the other army's wargear (power weapons, plasma/melta, etc).

 

I think it's a similar approach to the "everyone has 2+ armor" idea, but that it benefits the entire army instead of just PAGK. As cool as it would be to have multiple wounds on our troops, I think that it would just be too overpowered, even with a cost increase.

 

Just my opinion. :pinch:

 

Like i said on Warseer, something like The Shrouding (as per Valerian's fandex version 1) would be much more reasonable, it's basically a 5+ FNP filter against all shooting attacks, regardless of strength and AP. TH/SS Terminators won't be invincible, but will be more likely to do survive to make it into combat. Plus, it's more fluffy than re-rolling all saves. If they allow that, we will see a new Codex: Space Marines before any of our xenos foes even get a mention, just so Ward can give re-rollable saves to his boys in blue. They are better than Grey Knights, after all :rolleyes:

 

(Yes i am being sarcastic in the last sentence. No offence intended to any Ultramarine players reading this, it's not your fault Mat Ward is obsessed with sodomizing 40k's fluff with his Ultrawank)

[Valerian]

I think my mates actually prefer the idea of 2W GK to Storm Shield wielding TDA/AA with a reroll on either 2+ or 3++...

 

;)

 

Me, I can't wait for Storm Shield wielding TDA/AA with a reroll on either 2+ or 3++! :P

 

And would be a good inidcation of how a 5 man squad could 'tarpit' an Ork squad without either being wiped out, or wiping out the Orks...

 

If the Anointed Armour rumor pans out, then I'm guessing the GKT will not get an option to get Storm Shields. They'll probably have to stick with Storm Bolters + NFW for everyone, one or two guys can replace Storm Bolters with either an Incinerator or Psycannon. They'd still get their base 5+ Invulnerable Save, so with the Anointed Armour rerolls, that would give them a better than 50% chance (5 out of 9) to survive an AP1/AP2 or Power Weapon wounding hit.

 

Of course, this is all just a concept used in Playtesting (purportedly), so who knows if it has/will have been checked off for inclusion in the final product. They may have decided it wasn't appropriate and went with something else to improve durability/survivability instead.

 

V

[ArmouredWing]

Well, I had a chat with one of my friends in the know over the last couple of days and there's some good news... but some not so good as well.

 

The model side of the GK's is being worked on, something that we have been aware of and the work is well under way. However, there's not going to be a release any time soon (read: within the next 6-8 months).

 

The long and short of it is that there's not anything planned for the start of 2011 in terms of =][= releases because the design work isn't anywhere near that stage yet. DE are next in the queue and there's going to be something coming out pretty soon in terms of release date. I've also found out that Necrons are apparently a lot further along than folks may realise. Whether that means we're looking at 2 xenos releases in a row isn't clear but it does sound like necron players are pretty close (well as close as 6 months or so can be) to getting an update.

 

The bad news is that there's nothing been started in terms of Sisters. So we're looking at a long, long wait before we get anything new. With that in mind I'm starting to wonder what other imperial forces are being planned for the interim? As I hear more I'll let folks know.

[Gentlemanloser]

It could just be we won't get new PAGK/GKT to relace the current awesome ones until the second wave.

 

We could still be on track for a new Codex in January (as it's seems the rules are at least being playtested), with things like the Stormraven, Dread, etc (new unreleased mystery unit?) in the First Wave of mini Releases.

 

It's seems strange for there to be so much rumour material for us, if we're not in contention for next, or next after release. Necrons might be nearly done, but where's the rumours?

[Valerian]

Well, I had a chat with one of my friends in the know over the last couple of days and there's some good news... but some not so good as well.

 

The model side of the GK's is being worked on, something that we have been aware of and the work is well under way. However, there's not going to be a release any time soon (read: within the next 6-8 months).

 

The long and short of it is that there's not anything planned for the start of 2011 in terms of =][= releases because the design work isn't anywhere near that stage yet.

 

I hope that you are just talking about no model releases then, and not that there will be a delay in the release of the codex. I'm not super concerned about the models (since I've got more than I need already), but I would be dissapointed if they delayed the codex release just because the models aren't ready in time.

 

Thanks for the update,

 

V

[ArmouredWing]

Well that could be the case but when was the last time a codex was released without any of the basic troop selections also made available at the same time?

 

Rules my be in the playtest stage but I remain unconvinced as to a release at the start of next year.

 

...that's not to say I'd not want it to happen but no sisters is the news I didn't want to hear.

[Aeddon]

Well, I had a chat with one of my friends in the know over the last couple of days and there's some good news... but some not so good as well.

 

The model side of the GK's is being worked on, something that we have been aware of and the work is well under way. However, there's not going to be a release any time soon (read: within the next 6-8 months).

 

The long and short of it is that there's not anything planned for the start of 2011 in terms of =][= releases because the design work isn't anywhere near that stage yet. DE are next in the queue and there's going to be something coming out pretty soon in terms of release date. I've also found out that Necrons are apparently a lot further along than folks may realise. Whether that means we're looking at 2 xenos releases in a row isn't clear but it does sound like necron players are pretty close (well as close as 6 months or so can be) to getting an update.

 

The bad news is that there's nothing been started in terms of Sisters. So we're looking at a long, long wait before we get anything new. With that in mind I'm starting to wonder what other imperial forces are being planned for the interim? As I hear more I'll let folks know.

What part of this was supposed to be the good news? :)

[Eddie Orlock]

The bad news is ... As I hear more I'll let folks know.

What part of this was supposed to be the good news? :teehee:

That there is news at all.

[Brovius]

Here is some maths, courtesy of Warseer

 

 

Space Marine with bolter vs. Grey Knight's re-rollable 3+ save:

2/3 (hit) x 1/2 (wound) x 1/3 (failed save) x 1/3 (failed save) = 1/27 chance to wound, or 27 bolter shots to drop one Grey Knight

 

Space Marine with bolter vs. Grey Knight Terminator's re-rollable 2+ save:

2/3 (hit) x 1/2 (wound) x 1/6 (failed save) x 1/6 (failed save) = 1/108 chance to wound, or 108 bolter shots to drop one Grey Knight Terminator

 

Now how's this for crazy

 

Guardsman with lasgun vs. Grey Knight's re-rollable 3+ save:

1/2 (hit) x 1/3 (wound) x 1/3 (failed save) x 1/3 (failed save) = 1/54 chance to wound, or 54 lasgun shots to drop one Grey Knight

 

Guardsman with lasgun vs. Grey Knight Terminator's re-rollable 2+ save:

1/2 (hit) x 1/3 (wound) x 1/6 (failed save) x 1/6 (failed save) = 1/216 chance to wound, or 216 lasgun shots to drop one Grey Knight Terminator

 

 

Can you honestly say that 216 lasguns to kill one GKT is balanced in any way?

[Bishoujo]

Can you honestly say that 216 lasguns to kill one GKT is balanced in any way?

 

Hi, my name is Canoness Celestia and I support this product and/or service. :)

[jakehunter52]

Can you honestly say that 216 lasguns to kill one GKT is balanced in any way?

 

Yes. And btw, all Grey Knights are going to be 2+ save so 216 flashlights for everybody!

 

But seeing that this rule is for all "Knights", makes me wonder if they are going to do something for GK Dreads...possibly have venerable as part of the base cost...

[Gentlemanloser]

Can you honestly say that 216 lasguns to kill one GKT is balanced in any way?

 

Yes. :)

 

Lasguns should realistically (same as Plasma Guns and Bolters...) have no chance of damaging TDA. Bring back thier 3+ save on 2d6. :(

[Valerian]

Can you honestly say that 216 lasguns to kill one GKT is balanced in any way?

 

Yes. ;)

 

Lasguns should realistically (same as Plasma Guns and Bolters...) have no chance of damaging TDA. Bring back thier 3+ save on 2d6. ;)

 

Gentlemanloser,

 

You have to keep that in context to the rules set of the day. TDA did have a 3+ Save on 2D6 back in 2nd Edition, but almost every single weapon in the game had a negative modifier to that save. Even basic chainswords had a -1 save modifier, which would take TDA down to a 4+ Save on 2D6. Power swords had a -3 modifier, and power gloves/fists a -5, which would have made it a save of 8+ on 2D6. Also bolt pistols and bolt guns had a -1 modifier, flamers had a -2, while weapons like a lascannon had a -6.

 

The old 2D6 TDA Armor Save was cool, but with the save modifier system inherent in the game, it wasn't quite so powerful as some might lead you to think.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Maybe not as powerful, but more balanced. The bigs guns could still cause you problems (like the LC had a -6 modifier IIRC), but you didn't die to Bolt Pistols quite as often. (And IIRC this was still in the era where you could stack saves, but I was a RT player and we kinda stopped aorund the start of 2nd ed. I remember loading up on Displacement and Conversion Fields to go alongisde Refraction Fields. And Force Rods for extra Time Warp goodness! :))

 

I /sigh at the 1 in 6 chance a Bolt Pistol, Las Gun, sharp stick or childs fist has of defeating TDA. :)

 

As for a 2+ reroll, well we've started to see it sneak into the game already. With FNP being much like a armour save reroll, only stuck on 'carapace' armour, there's a Blood Angel upgrade character that gets it's on a 2+. And that's forgetting Fortune and I'm sure other rerolls out there.

 

Where the reroll is a cut above for us, is letting it work on all saves, But Fortune again does that already. :)

 

So I can def see the reroll happening, and going hand in hand with what we all suspect to be an increased cost of our Troops.

 

I was thinking of Chappies, and maybe ours will take a leaf out of the SW camp, and give us Prefered Enemy: Daemons. ;)

[Valerian]

Maybe not as powerful, but more balanced. The bigs guns could still cause you problems (like the LC had a -6 modifier IIRC), but you didn't die to Bolt Pistols quite as often.

 

Quite true. In that regard it was a better system. They definitely screwed up the mechanic in 3rd (through current edition), where they went to the 2+ on a D6, which does equate to a 1 in 6 of dying from a low powered lasgun (aka the flashlight), which was extremely uncommon before (had to roll "snake-eyes").

 

(And IIRC this was still in the era where you could stack saves, but I was a RT player and we kinda stopped aorund the start of 2nd ed. I remember loading up on Displacement and Conversion Fields to go alongisde Refraction Fields. And Force Rods for extra Time Warp goodness! :P)

 

Yes, you could stack saves back then, too. Although you could really go over-the-top with that. Conceptually, you should still be able to stack a field save with an armour save, but for the sake of game-play, it does work better that you only get to take a single save against each attack.

 

As for a 2+ reroll, well we've started to see it sneak into the game already. With FNP being much like a armour save reroll, only stuck on 'carapace' armour, there's a Blood Angel upgrade character that gets it's on a 2+. And that's forgetting Fortune and I'm sure other rerolls out there.

 

Yeah, but I think that the complaints are that it would be across the board, and not limited to an upgrade power, or a psychic power booning a single squad.

 

Who knows though.

 

V