Lord Ragnarok Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Any info on the conflict between the Flesh Tearers and Space Wolves? In the SW dex there is a blurb about a conflict called "Honor's End" where the forces come to blows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meracalis Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 I was thinking something more along the lines of Adept Grendelsyndrome (bonus points if you get that) where Khorne sort of favors him for the sheer amount of bloodshed he causes. what is, Beowulf reference, Alex Nope. (Adept Grendel was a Dark Heresy (40k RPG) character who got incredibly lucky rolls, ended up doing amazing things like one-shotting a bloodletter with a basic knife, and it was all explained as Khorne favoring him or something silly. Then Abnett went and made it canon.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ravensong Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 I was thinking something more along the lines of Adept Grendelsyndrome (bonus points if you get that) where Khorne sort of favors him for the sheer amount of bloodshed he causes. what is, Beowulf reference, Alex Nope. (Adept Grendel was a Dark Heresy (40k RPG) character who got incredibly lucky rolls, ended up doing amazing things like one-shotting a bloodletter with a basic knife, and it was all explained as Khorne favoring him or something silly. Then Abnett went and made it canon.) Again, what is, "Beowulf reference", Alex :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkeycow Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 I was thinking something more along the lines of Adept Grendelsyndrome (bonus points if you get that) where Khorne sort of favors him for the sheer amount of bloodshed he causes. what is, Beowulf reference, Alex Nope. (Adept Grendel was a Dark Heresy (40k RPG) character who got incredibly lucky rolls, ended up doing amazing things like one-shotting a bloodletter with a basic knife, and it was all explained as Khorne favoring him or something silly. Then Abnett went and made it canon.) BAH! curses haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDuke Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 By and large I like the 'new' fluff, although some of it now retconning stuff that had been previously retconned... I have to echo other posters displeasure about the alliance between Dante and the Necrons though, just blergh. I may have to get this codex after all and rebuild my BA army. ID PS; Oh, don't worry, the last remaining Lammies will show up at the decisive moment and save the day. Or get really unlucky again and get themselves killed. Or both. Its just how we roll. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 I had my chance to read our new Codex, and it fills my heart with pride to know that justice was done to our great Primarch. Here are some of the new fluff for the Blood Angels and Sanguinius.Other points of note: - No one knows why or how the Blood Angels Chapter has access to enough Land Raiders to serve as line transports. - We have a total of 43(!) Land Raiders and 51(!!) Stormraven Gunships. In fact, we have more Land Raiders than we have Predators and Baal Predators combined! - The Blood Angels see the entire Imperium of Mankind as their responsibility, rather than just a single star system. That means the Chapter is frequently spread thinly, which somewhat explains the high attrition rates of the Chapter. -- Remember the Necron World Engine battle detailed in Codex Space Marines? It is the Blood Angels who first suggested setting a permanent shrine to the Astral Knights on the planet of Safehold. - 2nd Battle of Armageddon. It is confirmed in the Codex that Tu'Shan of the Salamanders and Calgar of the Ultramarines tell Dante "Yes, you are in fact the boss of us." Glorious victory. - Mephiston is uber-superhuman. In a Nid invasion, he tears a Carnifex apart with his bare hands, holds the entrance to a strategic objective alone against Nid hordes for 6 hours, and then strolls through the Nid army to kill the Hive Tyrant and his bodyguard before deciding to take a break after being attacked by a Trygon. Pure insanity. That's all I can recall for now. Seriously, this Codex is everything we wished for, and more. All hail the Blood Angels and Sanguinius! Great!! ... So we had Matt Ward's Codex Space Marines: "Teh Ultramarinez are teh uberist space marinez evah!111!!! Calgar is teh secks!111!!!!" and now we've got Matt Ward's Codex Blood Angels: "Teh Blood Angles are teh real uberist space marinez!1111!!!! Dante is teh secks!!111!!!!! LOL LOL!!!" I wouldn't be suprised if I opened the codex and found the background written in red crayon. I can't say I agree it was what I was wishing for. Kinda expected though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDuke Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 OK, the raider stuff is new, and the Mephiston stuff is over the top, but a lot of the other stuff is just fleshing out what has been said before. Pretty sure that it was mentioned in several source that Dante was in charge during the 2nd Armageddon wars, though I can't provide a reference right now. In the Index Astartes the BA are listed as being one of the most noble marine chapters, who believe everything can change and should be fought for...as such I don't have a problem with the statement that they are thinly spread across the Imperium.... Edit; add in old sources and info just so no one can claim I am talking out my arse; 2nd War of Armageddon - 'The Blood Angles led the reinforcements, the military commanders of Armegddon ignoring von Strab's authority to follow Dante's legendary leadership.' 3rd Ed Armageddon Codex On BA fighting across the galaxy; 'Sanguinius was a visionary....He wanted a better life for all Mankind and an end to the strife brought on by the collapse of human civilisation during the Dark Aage of Technology...the outlook of Sanguinius did much to shape his Chapter. There is a mystical streak to many of the Blood Angels' doctrines and also a strong belief that things can be changed for the better.' Index Astartes II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 I'm loving the new fluff, how can I wait another 2 weeks!! even if Mephy appears now to be a Primarch? On a side note, funny how we are getting really close with the Grey Knights (a forth coming 'dex) against some nasty Daemons (Chaos Legions on the horizon?) at the same time as defending against 'nids (most recent 'dex). Get buying boys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb85 Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Speaking as a loyal Son of Dorn, I don't see how the Blood Angels being the Emperor's Honour guard during the crusade makes them the Emperor's Praetorians during the Siege of Terra. The Emperor wasn't crusading during the Siege of Terra he was working on his secret uber project. Sanguinius being made Commander-in-Chief doesn't mean that the Blood Angels were suddenly the personal guard of the Emperor during the siege either, that was the Custodes. In all likelihood it was probably the Fists manning the walls, while the Angels counter assaulted and the Scars harassed the enemy's rear (sorry if that sounds dirty). I don't think anyone other than our blessed Sigismund actually refers to the Imperial Fists as the Emperor's praetorians anyways, so that's just a prideful boast. TLDR version: It's GW's way of making us all feel like unique snowflakes. To be fair the Imperial Fist Index Astartes describes them as acting as the Emperor's Praetorians throughout the Great Crusade, long before they returned to Terra. And making Sanguinius Commander-in-Chief directly clashes with the events potrayed in the novels and collected visions where Dorn takes leadership of the remaining Imperial forces. IIRC the Blood Angels and Custodian Guard manned the walls during the Siege, with the Fists holding the Imperial Basilica. The Fists subsequently returned to the palace in the Sky Fortress as the Siege progressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodus Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 It's just a thought, and it's probably wrong. But the Imperial Fists as the Praetorian's and the Blood Angels as the Honour Guard doesn't have to be the case of if one was it, the other could not be so. Praetorian Guard were typically the bodyguards of Emperor's or Generals. Honour guard to me or to my mind implies more of a combat related role, a guard that takes to the field of battle where the pretence of peace has been cast off. Perhaps in this case, and as I said its just a thought, the two terms are instead complimentary to the nature of the Legions. The Imperial Fists were the masters at defensive work, they could fortify areas man the walls and guard the Emperor when not upon the field of battle working closely with his other guards such as the Custodes. In contrast, the Blood Angels push the offensive, being more assault based. Perhaps when the Emperor was in all his fury in battle, he was accompanied by the force that made more sense. Two tiles, two honoured positions of the Emperors trust, two Primarch's and two different roles. I have no doubt that when it came to be that the loyalists were playing a defensive game they turned to Dorn, skilled in combat as he would have also been the most able in my opinion to construct a defence. I'm not saying that these apparently contradictory pieces of fluff do not clash, nor am I implying that their statements are unbiased. Indeed, it seems wise to be biased when trying to sell a new codex. What I am trying to state in a round about way is that that's the hand that has been dealt so to speak. With a little bit of thought it's possible, if not utterly desirable to get around the issue. So far I like most of the fluff given, the Necrons thing I want to read for myself and certain areas regarding Mephiston but all in all, I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Desmodus Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Is Ka'bandah's first name Kopa? Now that made me smile. :) The whole Dante/necrons/tyranids business sounds fishy to me. Why would the nids be interested in a dead tomb world? [yoda voice] Grasping at straws without proper understanding, Matt Ward is. [/yoda voice] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaders Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Mephiston isn't "just" a marine any longer. 965.M41 The Temptation of Mephiston. "Daemon Prince M'Kar the Reborn traps Chief Librarian Mephiston in the crystal caverns of Solon V. He attempts to lure Mephiston onto the path of the Renegade, accusing him of being firmly on the path to daemonhood. Rejecting M'kar's dastardly deceptions, Mephiston throttles the life out of his captor, but not before a sinister seed of doubt worms its way into his heroic heart." Eldrad took enough of an interest in him to make sure that he survives the battle at the Hives of Hollonan (where he kills boatloads of tyranids). Some believe him to be a saviour; others are wary of how he's been changed. He used to be very talkative, and spent as much time around his fellow marines as he could. Now, he doesn't talk unless it's a dire time, and spends "hours alone in thought". His face shows that he's troubled, and: "there are whispers that Mephiston paid a dreadful price for his resurrection, that when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place. / such rumours are baseless / but Mephiston keeps his secrets close, and only time will reveal the truth.." He's OTT for a marine... because he's not a marine, or even just a librarian. He's basically a demon prince / greater demon. But of who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icewolf Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 IIRC didn't Mephistion release his full psychic potential when he overcame the black reage and so is no longer a latent psyker but a fully develpoed one which is why he is so powerful. Icewolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaders Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 I quite like the new fluff for Lemartes, who's basically a chaplain eversor who's kept in stasis. He's only let out to fight, as his body is gripped by the black rage, but he's holding onto his self control just barely by sheer force of will. He's also made the death company stronger than it's ever been. My favorite fluff has to be Seth's. How does a Flesh Tearer come off as possibly the most noble character in the book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Mephiston isn't "just" a marine any longer. 965.M41 The Temptation of Mephiston. "Daemon Prince M'Kar the Reborn traps Chief Librarian Mephiston in the crystal caverns of Solon V. He attempts to lure Mephiston onto the path of the Renegade, accusing him of being firmly on the path to daemonhood. Rejecting M'kar's dastardly deceptions, Mephiston throttles the life out of his captor, but not before a sinister seed of doubt worms its way into his heroic heart." Eldrad took enough of an interest in him to make sure that he survives the battle at the Hives of Hollonan (where he kills boatloads of tyranids). Some believe him to be a saviour; others are wary of how he's been changed. He used to be very talkative, and spent as much time around his fellow marines as he could. Now, he doesn't talk unless it's a dire time, and spends "hours alone in thought". His face shows that he's troubled, and: "there are whispers that Mephiston paid a dreadful price for his resurrection, that when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place. / such rumours are baseless / but Mephiston keeps his secrets close, and only time will reveal the truth.." He's OTT for a marine... because he's not a marine, or even just a librarian. He's basically a demon prince / greater demon. But of who? Hmmm. Much to think about in this piece. If Mephiston is "on his way to demon-hood" I find it terribly uncharacteristic of Eldrad to let him live. Granted, Eldrad could have looked into the future and saw mankind's undoing in letting Mephiston live, however this would present a problem to Eldrad's people later that cannot be ignored. That implies that Eldrad's people consider his life a "good" thing for the time being. Also, I generally consider Eldrad to be a person who believes that any psychic potential in humans is very much below him. To express interest means that he thinks Mephy has potential or at least amuses him. Will have to see how it plays out. The idea that Mephy doubts himself I think reflects the basic BA fundamental of looking out for the wellbeing of humanity. This is a very good character flaw that helps you relate to his character a lot more. The whole "Great power, great responsibility" thing seems applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Mephiston isn't "just" a marine any longer. 965.M41 The Temptation of Mephiston. "Daemon Prince M'Kar the Reborn traps Chief Librarian Mephiston in the crystal caverns of Solon V. He attempts to lure Mephiston onto the path of the Renegade, accusing him of being firmly on the path to daemonhood. Rejecting M'kar's dastardly deceptions, Mephiston throttles the life out of his captor, but not before a sinister seed of doubt worms its way into his heroic heart." Eldrad took enough of an interest in him to make sure that he survives the battle at the Hives of Hollonan (where he kills boatloads of tyranids). Some believe him to be a saviour; others are wary of how he's been changed. He used to be very talkative, and spent as much time around his fellow marines as he could. Now, he doesn't talk unless it's a dire time, and spends "hours alone in thought". His face shows that he's troubled, and: "there are whispers that Mephiston paid a dreadful price for his resurrection, that when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place. / such rumours are baseless / but Mephiston keeps his secrets close, and only time will reveal the truth.." He's OTT for a marine... because he's not a marine, or even just a librarian. He's basically a demon prince / greater demon. But of who? This is where GW made their mistake IMO. They should not have altered the fluff in such a why as to make Meph so ridiculously powerful. He wears power armour not spandex. They should have left things the way they were, it was more level headed fluff, more coherent with the Space marines mythos in general and made more 'sense', that is in a contrived imaginary world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 well if the Blood Angels sent a good amount of aid to Ultramar when it was in danger of tyranid invasion, i should hope the Ultramines return the favour now that Baal is on the brink. They won't. Ultramar is under attack by M'kar, who seems to enjoy messing with first founding chapters. .....and Honsou. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaders Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 How do you know what he's wearing under that armor? It could be a red spandex thong with a hello kitty face in the form of a blood drop with the whiskers shaped like wings. ;) I see him being more a part of the daemon/supernatural mythos. Marines are elevated to daemonhood by the gods of chaos/bargaining with daemons, or the search of knowledge (Ahriman). You have Saint Celestine, who is basically a daemon prince of the Emperor. The Blood Angels in general are touched by mysticism by their very geneseed and their warp-touched primarch's death. Residue of Sanguinius's spirit is said to be felt in places (such as the grails). Aspects of Sanguinius, including his foresight, and his exceptional beauty, have manifested themselves from his geneseed (Corbulo for instance). The source of the changest to Mephiston also came from his geneseed, which "unlocked" to make him more powerful. If Sanguinius's soul was strong enough to curse/gift all of his sons through his psychic death scream, who's to say he didn't leave some easter eggs, or even more of himself than his memories? The foundation for such an elevation in a marine/blood angel/Emperor-worshipper is there. Whether that change should have happened to Mephiston, or any Imperial marine, is opinion. And fortunately/unfortunately, whoever wrote that fluff blurb chose to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Would expect the angels to win this final battle by just hiding bhind their walls and gunning the nid til the deamons turn up and start attacking the nids, then open the tower and let everyone charge! All may well die doing so but not before all the other scum bite the dust. And most likely all b succesors will send their entire chapter to baal as thats wwhere sanguinisus body likely lies and they couldthave that being taken or destroyed now could they... Imagine nids if they got that dna! or chaos got a deamon to poses it... Anyways all sounds good, now back to watching themail box for my copy of the codex! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 How do you know what he's wearing under that armor? It could be a red spandex thong with a hello kitty face in the form of a blood drop with the whiskers shaped like wings. ;) :P Good one! I see him being more a part of the daemon/supernatural mythos. Marines are elevated to daemonhood by the gods of chaos/bargaining with daemons, or the search of knowledge (Ahriman). You have Saint Celestine, who is basically a daemon prince of the Emperor. The Blood Angels in general are touched by mysticism by their very geneseed and their warp-touched primarch's death. Residue of Sanguinius's spirit is said to be felt in places (such as the grails). Aspects of Sanguinius, including his foresight, and his exceptional beauty, have manifested themselves from his geneseed (Corbulo for instance). The source of the changest to Mephiston also came from his geneseed, which "unlocked" to make him more powerful. If Sanguinius's soul was strong enough to curse/gift all of his sons through his psychic death scream, who's to say he didn't leave some easter eggs, or even more of himself than his memories? The foundation for such an elevation in a marine/blood angel/Emperor-worshipper is there. Whether that change should have happened to Mephiston, or any Imperial marine, is opinion. And fortunately/unfortunately, whoever wrote that fluff blurb chose to make it happen. Thanks for the very well thought out reply. Your argument is sound as the fluff stands, and it makes sense, once again as the fluff stands. But arguing from the fluff rarely ends in any conclusion, except in the mind of the person reading the codex. That is why I prefer to take fluff from a gaming point of view. What fluff is good for the game in general and what is not. What fluff leads to more harmony and common sense when said fluff is transcribed into rules, and whether or not it will lead to resentment among deeply entrenched fan base. My grip with this is the perception with other Space Marine Chapters when one is favoured in such a way as to be viewed superior. This is the mistake GW has done in the past, especially with the Space Wolves, and it seems they are doing it again with the BA. Why should Space Wolves be better fighters than Ultramarines they use to say, and they were right. Why should Blood Angels have the potential for such characters and not our Chapters! Because 'the Blood Angels in general are touched by mysticism by their very geneseed and their warp-touched primarch's death.' Such an explanation might be enough for many fluff-wise as he fluff stands at the moment, but to others it can be viewed as an excuse, or nonsense, or a commercial tactic, favoritism, bad fluff concept etc.... At the end of the day when the fluff is constructed in a way as to be redundant on the game then the fluff is wrongly done. Nobody likes to be second best, so when GW gives the BA not one but two of these high profile characters it sends warning signals. I don't mind Demon Princes and Greater Deamons in the ranks of Chaos, it is to be expexted, but not in the ranks of marines (ie their equivalents of deamon princes). It creates envy and discord and a general dissatisfaction in the gaming community. If GW had a policy to ask what Space Marine players want in their codices, I think they would be surprised. Before C:BA came out in the stores, nobody was suggesting that Mephiston be made like this. If anyone had mentioned this he'd probably would have been derided. Goes to show that most players have good sense as well as a sense of proportion. I have said that I would of preferred they brought back the Primarchs. Do a major fluff reconstruction and give all the first founding chapters the possibility of fielding such characters, or else keep everything coherent. The way Mephiston was designed in 3rd and 4th brought more to the harmony of the game than this reincarnation. They should of revised him differently with the other chapters in mind. I know most are saying that I am whining or complaining etc., but it is not the case really. I am just trying to explain why it is not 'healthy' for the game to introduce such fluff. I am very attached to this game and I would want the fluff to mature in a solid and rich way that reflects the needs of the game vis-a-vis the perceptions of all the gamers of 40K not just of one codex in particular. I think my concerns are founded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 My favorite fluff has to be Seth's. How does a Flesh Tearer come off as possibly the most noble character in the book? Because he is the representation of all blood angels. They are monsters fighting not for their next breath but their last to be in the emperor's glory. Seth has forsaken attempts to stave off the death of his chapter. And in its place chosen to give everything at his disposal to fight for the people of the imperium. Thats why I love the blood angels. In the grim darkness of the future they die trying to make a better future for mankind. That is the essence of a true hero. Often we forget that it is not just victory or survival that are important, but hope and dreams too. Those things are what make people want the blood angels to succeed in their impossible mission, and what makes people believe that they will in the end. insert manly tears :'( Edit:Got carried away and forgot what else I was going to say. Seth's entire fluff section is devoted to what he is trying to accomplish. It doesn't go into any of his combat exploits which makes it seem more like he is fighting more for his goals then just because hes a really strong fighter like idk meph who when you read his fluff its kind of hard imaging him as anything but a super hero. Its also the fact that he is fighting to make people think of his chapter as more then beasts.Basically its the small guy fighting for his ideals rather then his life at the end of the world which in itself is the romanticized noble hero of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkeycow Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 @night runner i dunno i think it sorta makes sense. Blood Angels being the heavy hitter chapter they are have special characters that have very good personal ability, and hit hard, or give abilities that allow nearby units to hit hard. Codex Space Marines armies on the other hand are more tactically diverse, and their characters although not as martially power (which makes sense) are still more then competent in a fight, and grant amazing army wide abilities! also i sorta like the fact that they advance the fluff of characters, and i think Mephiston as a result is far more interesting. Although i don't think his model suits him as much anymore, cause now he is being portrayed as the tragic hero, instead of being a gothic vampire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 To be fair the Imperial Fist Index Astartes describes them as acting as the Emperor's Praetorians throughout the Great Crusade, long before they returned to Terra. And making Sanguinius Commander-in-Chief directly clashes with the events potrayed in the novels and collected visions where Dorn takes leadership of the remaining Imperial forces. IIRC the Blood Angels and Custodian Guard manned the walls during the Siege, with the Fists holding the Imperial Basilica. The Fists subsequently returned to the palace in the Sky Fortress as the Siege progressed. And here I was under the impression that the Imperial Fists were the Emperor's Praetorians late in the Great Crusade, after one of the future-Traitor Legions lost it. Don't have my IA on me, but I believe it was the Word Bearers, who lost it because they were moving too slowly and building huge temples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 WOW thats fluff actually sucks! Every one complains that the Ultramarines are like the most awesome and un-beatable, well looks like the Blood Angels have just had a make over thats made them the poster boys and the 'Bestest' ever. If this is the direction the fluff is going in then i may never read it again. when the DA get their codex there will a load of fluff having them probably also being at the Nid invasion of Macragge, having the Lion wound Fulgrim or something like that. That just made me laugh. yes Mephiston is supposed to be a real badass, but casually rip acarnifex apart and then a Tyrant and its Guard? And people made a fuss over Calgar kill an Avatar!?! This is just like a tit for tat now. And then the part about the Emperor only killing Horus with the most powerful psychic attack the galaxy has ever seen, because of a small hole? Oh come on! It was much better for Sanguinius to have died, a martyr for his father. Edit Woops read that bit wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 23, 2010 Share Posted March 23, 2010 Calgar, the part about the emperor only killing Horus because of the hole is old fluff, not new fluff. Its been around for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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