New fluff for Sanguinius and the Blood Angels

[Donkeycow]

The bit I'm most miffed about is that the Sin of Damnation was such a massive part of their history leaving the chapter on the brink of extinction yet the only mention is one line in the Terminators description page.

 

I'm not really a fan of the angels vs daemons approach that the dex has taken either, the Gehenna campaign is just daft as well and I don't like the whole final battle for Baal thing either. The Mephiston and Sanguinator stuff really isn't really my thing so on the whole I haven't really gained a lot from the new background material. :(

 

Luckily I'm doing my own Successor chapter so the background material isn't so important from my point of view.

 

Needless to say my guys won't be answering Dante's cry for assistance any time soon. :D

 

:D you won't answer the call to Baal? Tr.... Traitor...

[Bane of Angels]

:D

 

Nah I intend to have a power struggle going on within my chapter with the Sanguinary Priests trying to wrestle control of the chapter from the chapter master, a sort of enemy within scenario.

So my guys would be too distracted with their own problems to join in the fun anyway. :D

[Julius Firefocht]

:rolleyes:

 

Nah I intend to have a power struggle going on within my chapter with the Sanguinary Priests trying to wrestle control of the chapter from the chapter master, a sort of enemy within scenario.

So my guys would be too distracted with their own problems to join in the fun anyway. ;)

 

A traitor to the Blood Angels with traitors in its own ranks? Sounds interesting!

[Guest pandion40]

Got my copy this morning, and overall I am pleased. I didn't mind allot of the OTT stuff about Sanguinor and Mephiston.

 

Bit disappointed that the first few pages are basically a reprint of old Fluff, but as we have covered all the info here many times there's not much else they could have done.

 

Did find something I have not seen before pg 13 first paragraph about the Red Thirst

 

Deep within the psyche of every blood angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood-hunger that must be held in abeyance in every waking moment. Few Battle-Brothers can hold this red Thirst in check unceasingly - it is far from unknown for Blood angels to temporarily succumb to its lure at the height of the battle

 

Combined with this from the Sanguinary Priests entry pg 48 talking about extracting gene seed from dead Blood Angels

 

This is by far the hardest part of a Sanguinary Priests duties, for the red thirst cares little for the nature of blood - only that it is warm and flowing. So it is that every gene-seed extraction performed by a Sanguinary Priests becomes not only a ritual necessary for continuation of the chapter, but also a trial for the mind and soul of the Sanguinary Priests himself

 

That's an interesting clarification, it indicates that blood Angels always feel the Red Thirst and that the Black rage just makes it Uncontrollable. This is something I've seen argued before but have never seen proof before. This will please some, like me, and annoy others.

 

I enjoyed the Blood Angels Timeline section. This is something I have always wanted, some info on what the Blood angels and their successors have done since the Hersey. I also enjoyed the info about the successors even though there was little new here and I felt they should have written more. Particular mention goes to the Flesh Tearers especially Seth, I thought his quest to restore the reputation of his chapter before the rage destroys them was well done. Showing the nobility of the sons of sanguinius through such an unlikely source.

[Captain Idaho]

Speaking from an Ultramarines players point of view, I actually enjoyed most of the fluff. The stuff I liked the most was the interaction the Blood Angels have with other Chapters. It seems the Blood Angels really get on and respect their brothers in other Chapters. I liked how they sent 3 Companies to the Ultramarines aid in the aftermath of the First Tyrannic War. (though would have been more useful before the war! ha)

 

And I find it useful to be able to point to the Blood Angels the next time someone says Calgar killing an Avatar is silly. Has anyone read Blood on Khartas section?! Seems The Sanguinor is more powerful than Sanguinius himself, who actually struggled against that Greater Daemon...

[Bane of Angels]

The main time line only covers from 746.M41 to the present which I found a little disappointing because there is this huge gap between the Second Founding and no details of what happened in between.

I don't like the Flesh Tearers going nice. 40k needs it's anti-heroes and these guys fitted the bill perfectly.

[Plague Angel]

40k needs it's anti-heroes

From my perspective, that's all 40k has. It's nice to see some actual heroic characters for a change.

[embalancer]

ok a couple of points -

 

1. DOW2 does have some contradictory fluff as it is written that the BR have never set foot on terra though they recruit from the Adeptus Telepathica which is based on terra and i somehow doubt they're going to fly potential candiates into orbit just to test them and then take them back

 

2. The thing i found interesting with Mehphie is that it no longer says that is one of the most powerful psykers in the imperium as in older editions it was always a battle between and tigerus or most powerful psyker

 

3. could someone give me a fluffy reason why the executioners axe can disrupt inv saves?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

i love the new fluff, but some of it seems like they did it just to sell the codex, and to pacify us. i mean we wanted and needed new fluff, but some of it is just kind of cheesy.

 

and since when is the inquisition all buddy buddy with the BA? i thought they were suspicious of us because of the effects of the curse.

 

and as for the whole invasion of Baal by nids and deamons, we have a whole reserve of DC that just sits around on the planet ready to open a can of whoop ass on any who tries to invade...

 

Whoop Ass, Tower of Amero flavored: peel back tab, remove lid and stand way the hell back.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Got my copy this morning, and overall I am pleased. I didn't mind allot of the OTT stuff about Sanguinor and Mephiston.

 

Bit disappointed that the first few pages are basically a reprint of old Fluff, but as we have covered all the info here many times there's not much else they could have done.

 

Did find something I have not seen before pg 13 first paragraph about the Red Thirst

 

Deep within the psyche of every blood angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood-hunger that must be held in abeyance in every waking moment. Few Battle-Brothers can hold this red Thirst in check unceasingly - it is far from unknown for Blood angels to temporarily succumb to its lure at the height of the battle

 

Combined with this from the Sanguinary Priests entry pg 48 talking about extracting gene seed from dead Blood Angels

 

This is by far the hardest part of a Sanguinary Priests duties, for the red thirst cares little for the nature of blood - only that it is warm and flowing. So it is that every gene-seed extraction performed by a Sanguinary Priests becomes not only a ritual necessary for continuation of the chapter, but also a trial for the mind and soul of the Sanguinary Priests himself

 

That's an interesting clarification, it indicates that blood Angels always feel the Red Thirst and that the Black rage just makes it Uncontrollable. This is something I've seen argued before but have never seen proof before. This will please some, like me, and annoy others.

 

I enjoyed the Blood Angels Timeline section. This is something I have always wanted, some info on what the Blood angels and their successors have done since the Hersey. I also enjoyed the info about the successors even though there was little new here and I felt they should have written more. Particular mention goes to the Flesh Tearers especially Seth, I thought his quest to restore the reputation of his chapter before the rage destroys them was well done. Showing the nobility of the sons of sanguinius through such an unlikely source.

thats how i always interpreted the thirst, as something ever present, and that the rage came after you finally succumbed to the thirst.

[Captain Idaho]

and as for the whole invasion of Baal by nids and deamons, we have a whole reserve of DC that just sits around on the planet ready to open a can of whoop ass on any who tries to invade...

 

Whoop Ass, Tower of Amero flavored: peel back tab, remove lid and stand way the hell back.

 

What is so interesting about this is it could be a potential twist in the tale, like their psychic torment (those locked in the Tower) is the reason the Chaos Daemons are able to maintain existance on Baal, whilst the Tyranids are drawn to it like a beacon!

 

And how tragic it would be if the Blood Angels were forced to execute their brothers to save the planet.

 

Awesome story right there.

[daboarder]

I was under the impression that the thirst was ever present, the legacy of a certain we'll known bloodthrister cursing our chapter ( certainly fits the theme of a khornate curse). Then the black rage was the psychic aftershock of sanguinius' death, essentialy they are 2 comepletely different things, though if you fall to one odds are the other isn't far behind.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Thirst and Rage are together The Flaw, which (AFAIK) only took hold of the Blood Angels after the fall of Sanguinius.

[Lamenter Captain]

Too bad that the Lamenters are, yet again, not part of the party.

 

we have our own problems and less that 200 marines left.

[Guest pandion40]

One of Mat Wards aims in doing the new fluff for our Codex was to clarify the Red Thirst and black rage, the two terms had become linked there was allot of confusion where one left off and the other begins. I remember allot of discussion on this very board over the effcts of both, whether they are on/off or if they vary in intensity and such. Mat ward has cleared some of this up, they are separate affects, and the red thirst at least is a permanent effect.

 

He has still left some grey areas though. We don't know how the onset of the Black rage affects the Red thirst, we know that after the Black rage the Blood angel is left at the mercy of the Red Thirst, no longer able to control it, but is this because the rage has increased the strength of the thirst or has the rage destroyed the sanity and will of the Blood Angel leaving him unable to control himself. I prefer the second option.

 

We also don't know the origins of either condition. The Black rage seems almost certainly linked to the death of sanguinius, but the origin of the Red Thirst is less clear. I don't believe it is the legacy of the Bloodthurster at Signus Prime, I believe it has always been present and has simply gotten stronger over the centuries.

 

Having read the Signus Prime fluff I believe this is a foreshadowing of the creation of the Black Rage. sanguinius is often portrayed as being closer to his legion than his brothers and vice versa. He was a gifted Psychic and all the older fluff portrays him as feeling and influencing the emotions of his marines, so when 500 of his sons died at once at Signus he felt their deaths, Similarly when sanguinius was struck down they felt his pain and it drove them into a frenzy allot like the Black Rage, the story says when sanguinius recovered he could feel a darkness affecting his sons but it was fading. His death at Horus hands had a similar affect but this time it was vastly more severe and permanent.

[kollar]

I believe the Red Thirst has always been present, with the Black Rage being the psychic visions of Sanguinus Death. If you read the fluff about Sanguinus, it states that he goes berserk when protecting his tribe prior to the Emperor finding him. He also goes berserk during Signus Prime, if I am correct?

 

This would indicate that the thirst predates both Signus Prime and the death of Sanguinus, meaning it was present even during the Horus Heresy, although, it could be said that the marines probably had an easier time controlling it while Sanguinus was alive.

 

It also seems as if those afflicted by the Black Rage seems to become permanently afflicted by the Red Thirst as well, which is what I'm reading into it at least.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

@CaptainIdaho (comp won't let me quote...)

how does the tower and the marines inside present any sort of psychic beacon? they're marines in the grips of the rage, unless you're saying the amount of literal rage is stirring up the warp around the planet?

 

honestly though, thats what i would do if i were dante and we needed a bunch of extra boots on the ground to kick some ass, and it would give those marines a second chance for the honorable death they were previously denied. after all, there's what? 10,000yrs worth of DC marines locked up in there? how many do you think that would be? i'd have to say at least 10,000 (this is based on marines being functionally immortal as in not dying of natural causes.)

[Captain Augustus]

Too bad that the Lamenters are, yet again, not part of the party.

 

we have our own problems and less that 200 marines left. :)

 

Ah that excuse isn't viable seeing as the FT only have 400 marines and there fighting. ;)

[cptphoenixck]

Sounds pretty good. I think perhaps now we may actually loose that whole vampire mythos and get some proper respect!

 

I also like the tie in as to why BA always seems to show up for every major conflict. Never was clear as to why we happened to be part of everything but now it at least has a thread of realism.

 

The other thing is that perhaps there may be a forthcoming plan for forgeworld to tie into a massive campaign on Baal. With the number of mutants on planet, they can make some wicked renegade militia stuff.

all the mutants on Baal are long since dead haha. You don't really think a Space Marine chapter would allow the scum to infest their homeworld do you? i'm pretty sure they all were wiped out before the Emperor even found Sanguinius haha.

 

also it makes sense our codex is smaller then the blue one, because that codex represents like 800 outta the 1000 odd chapters. Our codex represents a small amount in comparison.

It says in the fluff that most of our recruits are in some way mutated......

[Whitefireinferno]

Too bad that the Lamenters are, yet again, not part of the party.

 

we have our own problems and less that 200 marines left. :huh:

 

Ah that excuse isn't viable seeing as the FT only have 400 marines and there fighting. :huh:

 

GAH don't liken us to them.... If they show up on Baal their bad luck will doom us all, And of course we still fight we fight and we win and those Bugs and chaos scum do not stand a chance with our feet on Baal. But yeah this could be really interesting to see where they take this, UNLESS they kill the FT off then thats gonna be the suck.

[cptphoenixck]

How do you know what he's wearing under that armor? It could be a red spandex thong with a hello kitty face in the form of a blood drop with the whiskers shaped like wings. :jaw:

:jaw: Good one!

I see him being more a part of the daemon/supernatural mythos. Marines are elevated to daemonhood by the gods of chaos/bargaining with daemons, or the search of knowledge (Ahriman).

 

You have Saint Celestine, who is basically a daemon prince of the Emperor.

 

The Blood Angels in general are touched by mysticism by their very geneseed and their warp-touched primarch's death. Residue of Sanguinius's spirit is said to be felt in places (such as the grails). Aspects of Sanguinius, including his foresight, and his exceptional beauty, have manifested themselves from his geneseed (Corbulo for instance). The source of the changest to Mephiston also came from his geneseed, which "unlocked" to make him more powerful. If Sanguinius's soul was strong enough to curse/gift all of his sons through his psychic death scream, who's to say he didn't leave some easter eggs, or even more of himself than his memories?

 

The foundation for such an elevation in a marine/blood angel/Emperor-worshipper is there. Whether that change should have happened to Mephiston, or any Imperial marine, is opinion. And fortunately/unfortunately, whoever wrote that fluff blurb chose to make it happen.

Thanks for the very well thought out reply.

 

Your argument is sound as the fluff stands, and it makes sense, once again as the fluff stands. But arguing from the fluff rarely ends in any conclusion, except in the mind of the person reading the codex. That is why I prefer to take fluff from a gaming point of view. What fluff is good for the game in general and what is not. What fluff leads to more harmony and common sense when said fluff is transcribed into rules, and whether or not it will lead to resentment among deeply entrenched fan base.

 

My grip with this is the perception with other Space Marine Chapters when one is favoured in such a way as to be viewed superior. This is the mistake GW has done in the past, especially with the Space Wolves, and it seems they are doing it again with the BA. Why should Space Wolves be better fighters than Ultramarines they use to say, and they were right. Why should Blood Angels have the potential for such characters and not our Chapters! Because 'the Blood Angels in general are touched by mysticism by their very geneseed and their warp-touched primarch's death.' Such an explanation might be enough for many fluff-wise as he fluff stands at the moment, but to others it can be viewed as an excuse, or nonsense, or a commercial tactic, favoritism, bad fluff concept etc....

 

At the end of the day when the fluff is constructed in a way as to be redundant on the game then the fluff is wrongly done. Nobody likes to be second best, so when GW gives the BA not one but two of these high profile characters it sends warning signals. I don't mind Demon Princes and Greater Deamons in the ranks of Chaos, it is to be expexted, but not in the ranks of marines (ie their equivalents of deamon princes). It creates envy and discord and a general dissatisfaction in the gaming community. If GW had a policy to ask what Space Marine players want in their codices, I think they would be surprised. Before C:BA came out in the stores, nobody was suggesting that Mephiston be made like this. If anyone had mentioned this he'd probably would have been derided. Goes to show that most players have good sense as well as a sense of proportion.

 

I have said that I would of preferred they brought back the Primarchs. Do a major fluff reconstruction and give all the first founding chapters the possibility of fielding such characters, or else keep everything coherent. The way Mephiston was designed in 3rd and 4th brought more to the harmony of the game than this reincarnation. They should of revised him differently with the other chapters in mind.

 

I know most are saying that I am whining or complaining etc., but it is not the case really. I am just trying to explain why it is not 'healthy' for the game to introduce such fluff. I am very attached to this game and I would want the fluff to mature in a solid and rich way that reflects the needs of the game vis-a-vis the perceptions of all the gamers of 40K not just of one codex in particular. I think my concerns are founded.

 

Yet Mephistons original fluff and game stats (2nd) had him as bad ass as a Vampire Lord, Game wise it doesnt create imbalance, he has no inv. and fielding a character who can kill anything is definately fun and dramatic when he himself get so easily flattened by heavy weapons. The game and Mephiston is balanced, now having a 1500pt primarch is not balanced. And many BA players did lament the loss in 3rd of such a killing machine, if anything, 3rd and 4th gen had him all wrong.

[kollar]

Yet Mephistons original fluff and game stats (2nd) had him as bad ass as a Vampire Lord, Game wise it doesnt create imbalance, he has no inv. and fielding a character who can kill anything is definately fun and dramatic when he himself get so easily flattened by heavy weapons. The game and Mephiston is balanced, now having a 1500pt primarch is not balanced. And many BA players did lament the loss in 3rd of such a killing machine, if anything, 3rd and 4th gen had him all wrong.

 

This is very much true. The easter egg even was the his stat line was EXACTLY like a Vampire Lord's from the WFB's at the time. And the fluff in 2nd edition also painted him out as if he was thought to be Sanguinus reborn basically. The geneseed unlocking it's true potential within him and creating a vessel for Sanguinus spirit or some such. Basically, read between the lines, that the Black Rage was a way for Sanguinus to be reborn once a suitable vessel had been found. This is not a direct qoute of course, as I have no idea about where my 2nd edition book is, but I'm 100% sure about something to the effect of Mephiston being the primarch reborn.

 

OT: The fluff in 2nd edition about Mephiston is what got me thoughruly hooked on Blood Angels. It's repeated in this book, together with Matt Wards crap about him "having a dark curse, yada yada". Just something about reading that line where it says; "At midnight on the seventh day he burst free from his rocky prison (in the 2nd edition it was "tomb"), reborn as Mephiston, Lord of Death." I remember that line sending shivers down my spine and just going "k, this is my chapter".

[Captain Augustus]

Too bad that the Lamenters are, yet again, not part of the party.

 

we have our own problems and less that 200 marines left. :)

 

Ah that excuse isn't viable seeing as the FT only have 400 marines and there fighting. :)

 

GAH don't liken us to them.... If they show up on Baal their bad luck will doom us all, And of course we still fight we fight and we win and those Bugs and chaos scum do not stand a chance with our feet on Baal. But yeah this could be really interesting to see where they take this, UNLESS they kill the FT off then thats gonna be the suck.

 

:) I forgot about there bad luck ok Lamentors stay where you are :D. Yea if they do kill the FT off that would be uber gay. However they could also swing it to the way that this is there final stand like Sanguinius and some how it cures the gene flaw.

[cptphoenixck]

OT: The fluff in 2nd edition about Mephiston is what got me thoughruly hooked on Blood Angels. It's repeated in this book, together with Matt Wards crap about him "having a dark curse, yada yada". Just something about reading that line where it says; "At midnight on the seventh day he burst free from his rocky prison (in the 2nd edition it was "tomb"), reborn as Mephiston, Lord of Death." I remember that line sending shivers down my spine and just going "k, this is my chapter".

 

Yep thats true of me too Kollar, Mephiston emanates badassness (?) he is just one of the coolest marines out there and his fluff isnt ott, because it's who he is. BA-> Vampire marines.... how is that not an improvement :P....

Also if marines statlines were going to represent their fluff as they are genetically engineered supermen, they'd all be WS/BS5 S5 T5 w2 I5 and A2 things on the tabletop dont represent their fluff other wise librarians would all have every psychic power and mephistons stat line would be even more immense ;)

[Captain Idaho]

@CaptainIdaho (comp won't let me quote...)

how does the tower and the marines inside present any sort of psychic beacon? they're marines in the grips of the rage, unless you're saying the amount of literal rage is stirring up the warp around the planet?

 

honestly though, thats what i would do if i were dante and we needed a bunch of extra boots on the ground to kick some ass, and it would give those marines a second chance for the honorable death they were previously denied. after all, there's what? 10,000yrs worth of DC marines locked up in there? how many do you think that would be? i'd have to say at least 10,000 (this is based on marines being functionally immortal as in not dying of natural causes.)

 

Apart from artistic liscence, all humans are intrinsically psychic, whilst Sanguinius was more psychic than most Primarchs. His psychic imprint is etched into the geneseed of each Blood Angel, and it is suspected when "activated" the geneseed of the Angel boosts the powers of his sons. It is an easy short hop to imagine the poor retches in the Tower have an increased psychic potential.

 

And not including the above, I think Dante would be reckless to release them on his home planet. Esepcially into the crucible of war against the corrupting powers of Chaos. Although that could lead to a cool plot twist in itself!