The Lost Primarchs

[Eirik_Xenobane]

I restarted the Heresy series of books, reading False Gods I stumbled upon a paragraph. Page 284, third paragrapth.

 

Pretending to be Sejanus, Erebus takes Horus to the lab where the Primarchs where created:

 

He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it and placed his hands on the smooth steel, feeling the untapped glories that may of lay ahead for what grew within, but knowing they would never come to pass.

 

After the Primarchs where scattered the Emperor continued reunification with Astartes Legions drawn from the DNA of his lost sons. Later each Legion was reunited with their gene-Father. What would happen to a Legion with no gene-Father?

 

False Gods suggests that the lost primarchs didn't survive, perhaps they landed on a planet and for some reason died. Later on the Emperor finds the world where it happened and learns of the death. Wouldn't make much sense to keep a Legion on the books when all the others had a Primarch. I think the 2 legions who had lost their Primarch in the scattering where disbanded, maybe folded into other legions.

[chriscrowing]

It's never be clarified by GW as to what happened to the lost Primarchs or Legions

 

While it's entirely possible that the Legions could have been formed from the Primarch's gene-stock and sent on the Crusade - (after all, surely it would take even the Big E a while to discover some of his sons had died before he found them) there would be no need to 'expunge their name and deeds from the records' had this been the case.

 

If the Legions had performed admirably without their Primarch, it would be demeaning to them to be assigned to another legion, and surely mixing gene-lines like that would be frowned upon? More likely, the E would have appropriated the 'fatherless' legions as his personal bodyguard, or personal executive strike force in addition to the Custodes or given them some similar honour. You don't waste 10'000 Astartes just because their dad's pod fell into a volcano or such...

 

More likely is that some flaw came to pass either before or during the abduction of the Primarchs by the Chaos Gods, resulting in the need to destroy the Primarch and all-stocks of their gene-seed.

 

Perhaps one of the lost Primarchs turned to Chaos immediately, broke out of it's pod and before it ran rampant full of the power of Chaos it had to be put down by the Big E while the rest were scattered?

 

Perhaps one of the infant Primarchs resisted Chaos and compelled the Ruinous Powers to destroy them in their pod.

 

Unless of course, the Lost Primarchs were found first by the Big E - i.e before Horus - but were already corrupted and steps needed to be taken. Perhaps they fell on world's where Chaos worship was rampant, and this informed the Big E's dogmatic Imperial Creed posuition even more?

 

The joyous thing is that we genuinely do not know, and GW have been pretty clear that they are NOT telling - speculation is a wonderful way of passing the time!

[Commander Sasha]

Chatted to James Swallow, author of the Blood Angels Omnibus etc at Salute 2010, London yesterday; he explicitly stated that GW planning policy regarding the two lost primarchs was strictly to be left unexplained; his opinion, and all of ours' meeting him, was that it left room for fanfiction and homegrown ideas, and was never to take that away. I paraphrase his words from memory:

"Contrary to what a lot of people think, there is not a secret document hidden in a safe in the depths of the Games Workshop Head Office, explaining exactly who the two lost primarchs are, what happened to them, and what their legions were like."

 

Mind you, he would say that, wouldn't he! :(

 

Anyway, we all know one was a girl and the other was a squat.

[Liquid_awesomes]

I doubt that the legions would have been disbanded, prehaps the emperor used them as personal bodyguards for terra, beeing more numerous than the golden guys i forget the name of. That, or he legions where so full of grief and rituos fury at the death of their undiscovered primarch, the became the Legion of the Damned and vowed to kill all enemies of the emperor.

 

I quite like the idea of one being Sigmar of the Empire, and the daemons fantasy codex says about khorne collecting skulls across space and time, showing a small but tenuos link between the two systems.

[Korraz]

All of the primarchs were reunited with their legions.

 

WHFB and 40k universes have nothing to do with each other any more. Back in Rogue Trader they were the same, but now they are entirely separate..

[MCCCXXXVII]

I've always thought that maybe those 2 primarchs refused to join the Emperor when he found them. I don't really know what would happen if one of the primarchs had refused to join The Great Crusade.

[Hobo Willie]

I know in A Thousand Sons:

 

 

When Magnus and Mortarion meet up on Ullanor, Magnus says something along the lines of "There haven't been this many Primarchs gathered since.." and Mortarion cuts him off saying, "You know we are forbidden to speak of that."

 

 

I would say whatever happened, it happened after most of the Primarchs had been found and it was probably a very well kept secret from the Imperium by the Emperor and His sons based on:

 

 

Ahriman's refusal to talk about the triumph at Ullanor with the Remembrancer he was training saying, "That was a private event amongst Astartes."

 

 

Meaning that Astartes gatherings are "private" events and if something were to have been decided or have happened, it wasn't shared with the rest of humanity either out of respect for the 'lost' Primarch or out of shame.

[Ashe Darke]

Chatted to James Swallow, author of the Blood Angels Omnibus etc at Salute 2010, London yesterday; he explicitly stated that GW planning policy regarding the two lost primarchs was strictly to be left unexplained; his opinion, and all of ours' meeting him, was that it left room for fanfiction and homegrown ideas, and was never to take that away. I paraphrase his words from memory:

"Contrary to what a lot of people think, there is not a secret document hidden in a safe in the depths of the Games Workshop Head Office, explaining exactly who the two lost primarchs are, what happened to them, and what their legions were like."

ADB has said pretty much the same thing over on Heresy Online. They are empty hints pointing at nothing, they are not a part of a bigger picture, it hasn't been written.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Anyway, we all know one was a girl and the other was Sigmar.

 

Fixt. ;)

 

All of the primarchs were reunited with their legions.

 

QFT. All Primarchs found, all joined their Legions in the Great Crusade.

 

WHFB and 40k universes have nothing to do with each other any more. Back in Rogue Trader they were the same, but now they are entirely separate..

 

Source? As recently as the Albion campaign and the Liber Chaotica references were made to the universes being linked somehow.

[Hellios]

Anyway, we all know one was a girl and the other was Sigmar.

 

Fixt. <_<

 

All of the primarchs were reunited with their legions.

 

QFT. All Primarchs found, all joined their Legions in the Great Crusade.

 

WHFB and 40k universes have nothing to do with each other any more. Back in Rogue Trader they were the same, but now they are entirely separate..

 

Source? As recently as the Albion campaign and the Liber Chaotica references were made to the universes being linked somehow.

 

You get all sorts of indirect hints... such as Chaos Warriors who sound a lot like marines... oh and I'm sure in the Lustria book it mentions a magical thingymabob that sounds a lot like some sort of futuristic gun...

[Cpt_Reaper]

Time for my 5 cents:

Legion II: Grey Knights

Kept secret so as to not anger Magnus. Supposedly Primarch II created all the anti-daemonic wards and such? That's why the Emperor told Magnus off because he did not have this protection. He wasn't being cruel, only looking out for his son. Yeah I have a soft spot for for the Chaos Primarchs. But this is my THEORY.

Legion IX: I bet they are still out there, one of the many Chapter's in action today. What if during history someone broke into records and deleted them? What's it called? The Time of Blood or somesuch? It is not stated the records were deleted at the same time. Food for thought.

[Valkyrion]

It's not the Grey Knights, the Legion of the Damned, a current chapter, or anything else like that.

It has been confirmed that all 20 primarchs were found and reunited with their legions and that all 20 fought together during the Great Crusade.

 

When they were expunged exactly is up for debate, but at the latest it was just before the Heresy when Dorn and Malcador mused together during Mechanicum.

 

What they did is also up for debate, but considering mutation wasn't punished (Sanguinius), psychic powers weren't punished (Magnus), mass murder wasn't punished (Kurze), Heresy wasn't punished (Horus), idolatry wasn't punished (Lorgar) then it had to be something so massive it's beyond belief, or something so secret no one could know.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It's not the Grey Knights, the Legion of the Damned, a current chapter, or anything else like that.

It has been confirmed that all 20 primarchs were found and reunited with their legions and that all 20 fought together during the Great Crusade.

 

When they were expunged exactly is up for debate, but at the latest it was just before the Heresy when Dorn and Malcador mused together during Mechanicum.

 

What they did is also up for debate, but considering mutation wasn't punished (Sanguinius), psychic powers weren't punished (Magnus), mass murder wasn't punished (Kurze), Heresy wasn't punished (Horus), idolatry wasn't punished (Lorgar) then it had to be something so massive it's beyond belief, or something so secret no one could know.

 

 

eh, heresy was punished. it just happened at too large a scale to be completely swept under a rug.

and the common citizen only knows of the heresy as myth.

 

so to erase a 1 or 2 legions doesnt seem too hard. especially if the emperor allowed it (instead of being stuck on the golden toilet after the siege of terra)

 

WLK

[Cpt_Reaper]

Has Gw said it isn't any of the current Chapters? Or is that just accepted as the truth?

[Starblayde]

Amazing that GW specifically say "these two unknown Primarchs/Legiosn are for you to let your imaginations run riot", and one of the 'rules' of Liber Astartes is 'RAWR NO FIRST OR SECOND FOUNDING CHAPTERS'.

 

Strange.

[Korraz]

The references in WHFB are just homages to 40k and the good old time. I have no source where it's said clearly, but they made the cut in the second edition, when 40k really became an entirely own system.

[Valkyrion]

It definitely wasn't heresy. It couldn't have been. Look at the reaction of the legions and primarchs when horus rebels, they are completely stunned.

If either of the two lost legions were wiped due to heresy they wouldn't be looked back on as potential saviours (see Dorn and Malcador again) and Horus' rebellion wouldn't be such a shock.

[Techmarine Andreas]

I have always had the opinion that the 2 lost Primarchs and Legions still exist and are either:

 

(a) Somewhere VERY VERY far away on a mission for the Emperor (Tyrandis home galaxy perhaps), and will someday return.

 

( Nicely hidden away somewhere deep under the Emperors palace insde a large "Stasis" Vault. With a large "In case of emergency break glass" Handle to the side.

 

I like the image of 20,000 Astartes and 2 Primarchs slumbering through the ages. Basically the Imperiums last resort. Their existence possibly known only to the Chief Custode.

[Cyrox]

(^_^ Nicely hidden away somewhere deep under the Emperors palace insde a large "Stasis" Vault. With a large "In case of emergency break glass" Handle to the side.

 

I like the image of 20,000 Astartes and 2 Primarchs slumbering through the ages. Basically the Imperiums last resort. Their existence possibly known only to the Chief Custode.

 

One of the best theories i've heard regarding these in a long time, and its been 18 years since 2nd edition!

 

All we know is they were reunited with their Legions and took part in the GC, thats it.

[Walter Payton]

Amazing that GW specifically say "these two unknown Primarchs/Legiosn are for you to let your imaginations run riot", and one of the 'rules' of Liber Astartes is 'RAWR NO FIRST OR SECOND FOUNDING CHAPTERS'.

 

Strange.

 

No, the Liber doesn't mind you doing 'This is my interpretation' second foundings-I'm writing one for the Silver Skulls right now!

[Xenaur]

(^_^ Nicely hidden away somewhere deep under the Emperors palace insde a large "Stasis" Vault. With a large "In case of emergency break glass" Handle to the side.

 

I like that theorie and I also like the idea of the grey knights having a primarch, I mean their gene seed must have came from somewhere!

[jeremy1391]

i really like the idea of the two lost legions kept in stasis for emergency use.... and since the emperor is still kind of alive he could have the power to unleash them again in the event of another chaos siege of terra.....

 

now as for grey knight gene seed isnt it speculated that it is from the emperor?

[Aqui]

i really like the idea of the two lost legions kept in stasis for emergency use.... and since the emperor is still kind of alive he could have the power to unleash them again in the event of another chaos siege of terra.....

 

now as for grey knight gene seed isnt it speculated that it is from the emperor?

 

From what I can gather over the years, all of the Primarch's came from DNA from the Emperor (in a somewhat diluted form - Hence the reason most if not all Primarchs refer to him as "Father"). I was given to understand or at least speculate that the Geneseed of the GK were blanks (as in they didn't come from a Primarch) - whether this Geneseed was also sourced directly from the Emperor I don't know, as I was given to understand that they were set up/created after the Emperor's interment into the Golden Throne. If it was from the Emperor, it might have been taken/created between the beginning of the Great Crusade and when the HH kicked off, but not put into use until well after it ended....

[Grand Master Tyrak]

now as for grey knight gene seed isnt it speculated that it is from the emperor?

 

That's the official line, yes. Although it's speculation, no other source for their gene-seed has been put forward (although this may change come the next C:DH)

 

Amazing that GW specifically say "these two unknown Primarchs/Legiosn are for you to let your imaginations run riot", and one of the 'rules' of Liber Astartes is 'RAWR NO FIRST OR SECOND FOUNDING CHAPTERS'.

 

Strange.

 

Why is that strange? The Liber Astartes is not about letting your imagination run riot. If you want to do that, avoid the co-operative "room for everyone" universe that the Liber Astartes supports. Creating background for one of the Lost Legions is perfectly creative, but in a co-operative universe it also prevents anyone else from using the Lost Legions - it would mean that only two people would be allowed to claim a Legion as their own. Therefore the Liber takes the less restrictive (believe it or not) option of letting sleeping Legions lie instead of having endless arguments over who gets a Legion of their own.

 

If you want to do whatever the heck you want, that's your call (whether it's about one of the missing Legions or not) - there's nothing wrong with that. Just remember that the Liber Astartes is not an official forum for doing whatever the heck you want. It's about finding a niche in the universe within the room provided by the 1000 Chapter system outlined in the fluff - letting your imagination run riot within the context of the 41st millennium Adeptus Astartes, if you will. One of the confines of the Adeptus Astartes is that (barring Ultramarines 2nd Founding Chapters), the original Legions and the 2nd Founding Chapters have all been named.

[Aqui]

 

In the Mechanicum novel, Rogal Dorn and Malcador the Sigilite speak of the lost legions, with MTS telling Dorn "Do not even think of it brother, they are lost to us forever", but provides no further information. Paraphrased from one of the HH books - although I haven't read the one in question yet (I had to get the quote from elsewhere) This implies to me that perhaps Legions 2 and 11 were sent on A LOT further ahead in the GC than the others, and were either exterminated by some alien foe or were taken by the Warp during a Warp Jump and never seen again, or are now so far away that there was no possible way of telling them of what was happening - and still isn't.

 

 

Sorry about the spoiler, but I wasn't sure how many people have read the book I was referring too (I haven't read it yet myself :D ) and I didn't want to spoil it for those that haven't (and I didn't want to receive the pain glove from the Admin either :P )