The Lost Primarchs

[SangPriest]

From what I was reading into the story at the end of "Flight of the Eisenstein" I concluded that Nathaniel Garro and Iacton as well as the remaining members of Garro's units, were the initial Inquisition, and that Garro was somehow related to the founding of the Grey Knights.

 

All speculation of course, but he was Terran, he was fanatically loyal to the Emperor, and it seemed he had some sort of psychic connection with the Saint. I would find it beautifully ironic that a Death Guard supplied the gene seed for the Grey Knights.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

From what I was reading into the story at the end of "Flight of the Eisenstein" I concluded that Nathaniel Garro and Iacton as well as the remaining members of Garro's units, were the initial Inquisition, and that Garro was somehow related to the founding of the Grey Knights.

 

That's fair enough. Personally, I read the hint about needing "inquisitive persons" as just that, and never saw the link to the non-inquisitive Grey Knights. If anything, I would have connected him to the Deathwatch - he's just spent almost the entire Great Crusade killing aliens and humans, and has only encountered a daemon twice. Even then I can't see (for either Chamber Militant) anything other than his "spare" status to set him above anyone from any of the other loyalist Legions.

 

Anyway, enough of my ramblings on the Grey Knights.

 

For the Lost Primarchs, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Lost Legions and the Golden Throne are tied together. I suspect that at one point, before the Golden Throne got it's current purpose, it was instead a Golden Sofa, and that it had to be redesigned as a matter of urgency after two entire Legions were lost down the back of it. ;)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

+1 to Tyrak, plus the Grey Kinghts are psykers and Garro was not.

[Pigeons]

I have always had the opinion that the 2 lost Primarchs and Legions still exist and are either:

 

(a) Somewhere VERY VERY far away on a mission for the Emperor (Tyrandis home galaxy perhaps), and will someday return.

 

( Nicely hidden away somewhere deep under the Emperors palace insde a large "Stasis" Vault. With a large "In case of emergency break glass" Handle to the side.

 

I like the image of 20,000 Astartes and 2 Primarchs slumbering through the ages. Basically the Imperiums last resort. Their existence possibly known only to the Chief Custode.

 

 

 

i LOVE that tyranid theory. great idea...the Emperor somehow knew about the tyranid threat and the scope of it well before the rest of the galaxy(because of the information being suppressed, probably), so he sends two entire legions on a crusade to try to wipe them out. there wouldn't be a home planet though, that doesn't fit with their fluff. the whole reason they move around is because they're constantly using up the resources of the worlds they're on...what they'd have instead would probably be some central fleet that contains the original hive mind thats remotely controlling all the other hive fleets. that's what they'd try to find and destroy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

as for my theory on the two lost primarchs? they were both women. the emperor was too proud to give equal footing to women publicly, but knew he couldn't just disband two entire legions because they were led by a woman, so instead he used them during the Crusade(and they probably fought with the other loyalist legions during the heresy too), but then he suppressed all knowledge of their existence afterward, and who knows what he did with the remainder of the chapters? melded them into the other founding chapters, used them to form 3rd+ founding chapters, or whatever. and the female primarchs? first leaders of the sisters of battle, perhaps? who knows. it's meant to be left to interpretation anyway, right? :)

[Priest33]

Perhaps one of the primarch's was the primarch of the sisters of silence? Just sayin...:D

[Badaboom]

Perhaps one of the primarch's was the primarch of the sisters of silence? Just sayin...:huh:

 

You know this cannot be, for there´s no Primarch connection without geneseed and all the implants that make an Astartes superhuman, showing the traits of his gene-father (or mother, as you suggest). In other words, you can´t just take a human and install in him/her the gene-traits of a Primarch. IIRC, the Sisters of Silence were recruited, not created.

[Hemal]

And the Sisters of Silence are patently NOT superhuman warriors of the same ilk as Astartes.

 

My view is that the two legions were either wiped out to a man during the GC or else sucummbed to some other disaster during the run-up to the Great Crusade, maybe they were destroyed by say a Hive Virus or other disease or warp entity-spawned malaise...

 

The fact that there are so many veiled references to the Primarchs in my eyes means that they were both discovered and given command of their legions..

 

ANd regarding the errant marines from the Heretic legions, I'm pretty sure that they all became the first cabal of Inquisitors - who else but these bastions of honour and faith to become the masters of His Inquisition?

[shatter]

Some silly ideas.

 

Lost Primarchs were just a few samples left over from the print run. They're in a drawer.

He made servitors of them to serve drinks on His holiday barge.

He sent them back in time to oversee his own birth or help out in a few of the trickier exercises of His youth or to be stand-ins when no adequate human of an age was available.

He bought stuff from warp powers with them.

He traded them for some antique magic rares.

He sent them as beacons or loci of His power into the warp.

He used them as spare parts for himself.

He mind wiped them, gave them His gonads and sent them on a 10,000 year fertilization frenzy.

He overlaid His own consciousness on them and used them as body-doubles at boring parties.

They were combined and placed within the golden throne in His stead while he obscured the minds of those that placed 'Him' in said throne. He is now alive and well and living in a quaint split level bungalow on Easter Island where He enjoys playing table-top games with models from the 21st century with a jakaero and a squat.

[Pcm979]

The first two Primarchs were his sidekicks during the twentieth century- Dick Grayson and Jason Todd.

[calgar101]

My GK theory is that Word Bearers geneseed was udes to create fanatically loyal super soldiers.... As for the missing legions well i think that after naming and creating 18 legions and Primarchs GW ran out of ideas and used the "records expunged" line.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

They were combined and placed within the golden throne in His stead while he obscured the minds of those that placed 'Him' in said throne. He is now alive and well and living in a quaint split level bungalow on Easter Island where He enjoys playing table-top games with models from the 21st century with a jakaero and a squat.

 

This is both the most interesting/funny and plausible of all that have been mooted.

 

On another note, it's Jokaero :P

[Gaz1858]

I have recently bought the really old Codex Imperials from Ebay. Its funny when you read old rulebooks how the fluff changes/evolves over time! Some of the stuff is totally different to todays!

 

In reference to this topic however the records of the 2nd and 11th Chapters are noted as being deleted "after the Horus Heresy" in this book. This is the only written GW material about the 2nd and 11th chapters that im aware of, bar ofcourse the conversation between Dorn and Malcador.

 

If they were deleted after the Horus Heresy, the question is why?

[Nerdfest10]

Here is how it is - primarch of the IInd legion, reounces his heritage and becomes a wandering minstral named Bob "Jazz Hands'' Murphy. He has visions of the future and thus develops a drinking habit to drown out the images. He wanders the Galaxy for a few hundred years until he ends up on a war torn planet. After a particular heavy night on the booze (think about it, thats a lot) he stumbles into the warzone and gets totalled by a land raider. That's why all records are expunged, he was the prodigal black sheep and to say he was an embarassment is a gross understatement.

 

Primarch IX - Goes off to war with Dad, like the good son he is but comes back after his first campaign suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. He locks himself in his room for a few years, then emerges one afternoon an eco-friendly vegetarian pacifist. He travels across the cities of Terra, gethering support for his 'green' adgenda, trying to convince the war effort to, if not stop, then use hybrid engines in their war machines. At a political rally in aid of the "They may be Xenos, but they're not Alien' foundation, he becomes the first victim of the Officio Assassinorum. All over, record expunged.

[Shotbreak]

 

They both had the Pariah gene in them so the emperor sealed them and their legions under the palace because they could not be destroyed (simply put they were agents of the Star Gods/Necrons.

 

 

Their names were...... Gog and Magog.

 

From "Rise of the Tau" by Revenant.

 

if anyone hasn't read it then go to the fiction section and read it now!!! it's not canon but it can be safe to say it's the greatest explanation for the missing primarchs I've ever come across (as well as the other explanations they give in the story for every other mystery). and it makes me sad to know that it's only fan fiction :(

[nhaunter]

My opinion is that Emperor sent them trough that portal under the throne on some mission and they never returned or maybe they found something powerfull and opted to stay (maybe becoming rulers in another dimension or something like that) and when E founds that he sends hid Custodes too drag them out but they encountered daemons. So conclusion: secret mission involving two legions and their Primarchs went wrong=Emperor made mistake=goodbye two Legions.

[Artein]

Think about something else now....

 

Alpharius Omegon - one soul, two bodies

 

Konrad Curze / Night Haunter - two souls, one body

 

Now, if we divide it correctly, one soul to one body, we'll get 3 Primarchs.

 

Maybe here's one of the missing ones?

[lemanruss10]

According to Mechanium the two missing legions mayhave fought in the Great Crusade, as they are acknowledged by both Dorn and Macrador.

When Macrador the Sigilite says Horus and his 3 brother legions has no chance against Dorn and 13 brother legions, to which Dorn says i wish it was 15, but Macrador rather firmly replies do not speak of them for they are forever lost to us.

 

Perhaps this indicates both legions were lost in a Warp storm as it would be unlikly that a Primarch and an entire legion could be lost in a battle never mind this happening on two occasions.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, we know that one of the missing Primarchs came to rest on an Earth-like world inhabited by lost colonies of man, eldar, slann, squats, and greenskins and eventually rose in power amongst men to become the leader of a great empire that even now struggles to hold back the tides of Chaos.

[BloodAngelAdam]

Been a long time since I've posted here. Glad to be back!

 

One of my favorite things to do in life is speculate about the Imperium.

 

When regarding in-game lore we cannot allow outside knowledge to interfere. The fact that GW clearly states that no information about the two missing legions is irrelevant because GW does not exist inside of the Imperium. Well, maybe it does but that's a fun joke/topic for a later date. :)

 

When I consider the two missing legions I have take stock of what we already know. We know they certainly existed and were created by The Emperor. We know they were reunited with their legions (would love source material on this please). We know that all records regarding them were expunged, save for the fact that they did exist at one time.

 

I also struggle with another fact. Who would have the ability and the authority to strike out and remove two whole legions from all known Imperial records. I think The Emperor would be the most likely person to consider here. This is probably inconsequential, but has always been stuck in my mind.

 

For me, the big question lies in figuring out a reason why they are acknowledged to have one existed, but never expanded upon beyond that simple fact. There must be a reason why their memory is allowed to remain (why were the statues that Dorn was referencing not simply removed?), but remain only as a memory. What is the 'something' that allows for both of these facts to exist. Shame? Disaster? A grand secret conspiracy?

 

My hunch comes mostly from Dorn, and his admittance that he wishes he could of used those two lost legions during the Heresy. If they had turned traitor previously, I doubt he would say he wishes he could fight with them. I could be mistaken, but this is what my feelings tell me. So perhaps an enormous disaster? It's possible, sure. But if it had been a disaster, why would they have deleted all their information, and not just mourn for them and remember them for the heroes that they probably were? If a disaster, then what disaster as to leave these two legions as only a shadow of a memory.

 

As far as I know there exists only one chapter that could be considered to be as steeped in shadow and hidden from view, and that being the Grey Knights. But we are given enough evidence to probably have us lean away from connecting those dots. Again, I could be wrong, but this is the only answer that is vague enough yet leaves enough room for doubt as much as conclusion. Still, even lets say that the GKs are in some way from/part of a lost legion, that only accounts for 1 missing Primarch.

 

I think the speculation that these legions are being hidden and saved for some unknown reason rings with a certain truth. It's probably the conclusion that offers the most room for these few truths to exist. If the Emperor had to removed these two legions from the duty roster then it wouldn't seem unfair to say that the reason would be as huge and momentous (right word?) as for the amount of controversy it would bring, if not more so. What reason could exist that the Emperor would pull two legions out of history? I don't have an answer, but it sure is fun as hell to talk about!

 

Please forgive me if I seem to draw conclusions without taking into account other ideas put forth. I enjoy reading all the ideas put out there! This is simply my interpretation of the matter. :woot:

[Pigeons]

They both had the Pariah gene in them so the emperor sealed them and their legions under the palace because they could not be destroyed (simply put they were agents of the Star Gods/Necrons.

 

 

Their names were...... Gog and Magog.

 

From "Rise of the Tau" by Revenant.

 

if anyone hasn't read it then go to the fiction section and read it now!!! it's not canon but it can be safe to say it's the greatest explanation for the missing primarchs I've ever come across (as well as the other explanations they give in the story for every other mystery). and it makes me sad to know that it's only fan fiction :woot:

 

 

 

no, the greatest explanation was the one that used to be canon, before they went crazy and tried to disassociate the two games.

 

 

ie: that sigmar from warhammer is one of the two lost primarchs and that world is trapped in the eye of terror.

 

 

why they got away from that i'll never understand, since it fit perfectly.

 

 

 

also, about that mechanium quote, there's no reason to assume "lost to us" means dead.

 

 

my personal speculation is that the emperor somehow knew about the tyranid threat, even back then, and he sent those two legions off to whatever galaxy they came from to try to head them off/destroy them, or even just to gather intel on them and keep reporting back to him.

 

 

 

being stuck in another galaxy might as well be dead, by the time they got back to our galaxy malacdor and dorn would have been long dead.

[BloodAngelAdam]

I agree with Pigeons.

 

I can understand why GW chose to separate the two games. But I think it was much much cooler when and how they were linked together.

[Pigeons]

of course it isn't possible NOW, because we have enough info to know that both primarchs were found, reunited with their legions and led them in the great crusade.

 

 

 

so now at least, it definitely couldn't be sigmar.

[Spacefrisian]

One is female and was found on the planet which later would provide the first sisters of battle. However it took to much time and effort to make female astartes so they simply decided not to do so.

 

Before the crusade daddy doesnt want his only daughter at the front lines and tells her to return home and be safe. Than all notes are deleted and a legion was forgotten, (big E can make that happen) another step to proootect his daughter.

 

Later on she leaves that planet as daddy isn't calling and discovers that some peeps have screwed up and her daddy is on a throne being near dead.

 

SHe now searches the galaxy to reverse this (maybe she even teams up with Russ now and than to kick Daemonettes buts.)

[Shotbreak]

no, the greatest explanation was the one that used to be canon, before they went crazy and tried to disassociate the two games.

 

 

ie: that sigmar from warhammer is one of the two lost primarchs and that world is trapped in the eye of terror.

 

 

why they got away from that i'll never understand, since it fit perfectly.

 

That one's the greatest because it was actually used at one point. But just like you said, they disassociated the games and now that's as fictional (within the games) as mine.

 

if you do read the story it does give a good interpretation on what happened and it even gives flashbacks (from the timeline of the story) to when they were "loyal" to the Emperor during the crusade.

 

and the Grey Knights can't be from any of the lost primarchs because I remember reading that they were made up of loyal marines who survived Istvaan V after choosing to go against their primarchs who chose chaos. so our Grey Knights truly deserve their status of incorruptible because they descend from the loyalists of the traitor legions.

[Larkyn]

Obviously the Missing Primarchs are the Army of Two.

 

Tyson Rios and Elliot Salem.

 

They can take 10 billion bullets and still complete thier mission, rescuing a lady and blowing up a carrier all in one day. ;)