The Lost Primarchs

[Priest33]

Had a thought using Sigmar as one Primarch that would make the other one Malal (malar? something like that) who was the first chosen of chaos which kinda makes sence... except for teh fact taht they where never re-united with their legions.. hrm.

 

 

Prehaps the reasion for them to be removed as because they attempted to assend to godhood and daddy didnt like it?

[Spacefrisian]

Malal is not 1 of the 2 Primarchs cause he is older than the creation of the Primarchs and like his 4 bros Warpspawned (or whatever you might wanna call it)

[SamaNagol]

It has been established across various fluff sources that the Primarchs were all found and that they were all reunited with thier Legions. And the 2 'lost' Legions were indeed lost or wiped out in some way. Which events led that are not ever expanded upon. And, judging by current GW policy, are unlikely to ever be...

[PH34RB0T]

This is how I like to think of it...

Everyone knows how completely devoid of Love the 41st is, so the Emperor sent the two legions on a crusade against heartlessness. Now, we all know that the only suitable lover for a Primarch is another Primarch, so... yeah. And just when everything was getting steamy, the Emperor walked into the room.

[valanus]

Just another little bit I noticed when rereading A Thousand Sons I came across a conversation between Lemuel Gaumon and Ahriman when discussing the Thousand Son's 'flesh change' problems during their early years:

 

"'There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history.'

Lemuel shook his head.

'That's the thing about history,' he said. 'It has a habit of remembering the things you'd like to forget. No one can erase that much, there would always be some record.'

'Don't be so sure, Lemuel,' said Ahriman. 'The Emperor's wrath is a terrible thing.'"

 

 

This is from page 386 of A Thousand Sons. Not sure if it means anything concrete but I found it interesting.

[The Normish]

My opinion was always that one of the Missing Legions became the Legion of the Damned.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

I have always held the belief that one of the primarchs turned to chaos and the other was sent to kill him and in the fighting both legions where decimated. So in order to prevent further examples of tratorious primarchs the Emperor covered it all up and lied about what really happened. Almost along the same lines as Freddy Krugar, if you don't talk about him he loses power. So if the other primarchs where kept ignorant of why the fallen primarch really turned against the Emperor they would be less likely to turn themselves.

 

In support of this Horus "educates" Loken on the nature of the warp stating that the beings of the warp are just another type of xenos with special powers instead of daemonic sorcerous beings. If this is what the Emperor told all the primarchs to try and sheild them from chaos I can see him having the records of a traitor primarch being erased.

 

I've always liked the idea of creating your own Legion/Primarch as I read in a WD that that is why GW didn't create the other 2 as it left an opening for players to fill. But sadly I haven't seen any DIY legions and primarchs. When I made a post about it everyone just said "no one does that so don't ask about it, it"s taboo".

 

Also another factor conserning why the 2 legions and their primarchs would be erased from history is concerning Imperial moral. The Space Marines are the greatest defendors of humanity so what kind of effect would it have on the moral of the Imperium if it was known that 2 legions of the Imperium where completly destroyed (if they where). Its already been mentioned that the Heresy is kept as a secret from the majority of the Imperium, to me the only reason to do this is to keep the knowledge that enitre legions of humanities finest turned to chaos. So why wouldent they do the same thing about Legions that where destroyed?

[increaso]

I'm struggling to find any common ground between GW's official stance that the missing legions are specificallly absent to encourage players to 'make your own chapter' (and that for that reason the fate, in fact any details, of those legions will never be revealed) and the odd comment that we get in the HH novels that the legions had 'a terrible fate', 'are lost to us forever' and so on.

 

GW's reason for on not revealing the missing legions is made redundant by the fact that you, as a player, can simply create a 2nd, 3rd, 25th founding chapter.

 

Given GW's stance I am not particularly convinced by any theory that draws the conclusion that the missing legions produced any of the known 40k SM marines eg. Legion of the Damned, Grey Knights, etc.

[Gold Raven]

Just another little bit I noticed when rereading A Thousand Sons I came across a conversation between Lemuel Gaumon and Ahriman when discussing the Thousand Son's 'flesh change' problems during their early years:

 

"'There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history.'

Lemuel shook his head.

'That's the thing about history,' he said. 'It has a habit of remembering the things you'd like to forget. No one can erase that much, there would always be some record.'

'Don't be so sure, Lemuel,' said Ahriman. 'The Emperor's wrath is a terrible thing.'"

 

 

This is from page 386 of A Thousand Sons. Not sure if it means anything concrete but I found it interesting.

 

I remember that one too, as I'm just now reading that book. It provides an example of why an entire Legion would need to be expunged from Imperial history. Even the traitor Space Marines are acknowledged as being creations of the Emperor. So if severe mutation or 'flesh change' would generate talk of expungement, we have a basis for determining the type of behavior that might result in such a severe penalty.

 

So what other activities or behavior might be against the teachings of the Emperor?

Siding with Xenos, maybe? A Primarch adopted by peaceful, native aliens might not necessarily want to side with someone who commands their extinction.

Rampant, uncontrolled psyker manifestations, beyond those of the Thousand Sons?

[Warsmith Aznable]

So when Magnus breaks the wards on the Imperial Palace he sees something that pales in significance to the warning about Horus he was trying to bring to the Emperor, right? The gate that he used goes to the Web Way, and the Emperor was doing something hugely important involving that, so perhaps what happened was that, as Malcador says, "they are forever lost to us" because the two missing Primarchs took their legions through that door and "something happened", and what Magnus feels so bad about that he's at first willing to let the Space Wolves kill him and his entire legion (and entire home world) is that he knows he's responsible for blowing the one chance that the Emperor had of recovering his lost sons.

 

Which doesn't explain his sudden "off camera" change of heart at the very end of Thousand Sons, but whatever. I like the idea that Lion El'Jonson is somewhere in the Web Way having a tea party with his two missing brothers until the End Of Everything because they can't find their way home.

[Shotbreak]

I've always liked the idea of creating your own Legion/Primarch as I read in a WD that that is why GW didn't create the other 2 as it left an opening for players to fill. But sadly I haven't seen any DIY legions and primarchs. When I made a post about it everyone just said "no one does that so don't ask about it, it"s taboo".

 

Why should everyone listen to people who say it's taboo? I say you should try it out and get some feedback and blacklist the haters. who gave them the right to say "Hey GW says we can make the primarch and their legion, but we won't let anyone do that because we think its gonna ruin some crazy 'probably never gonna happen' idea that GW has somewhere up its sleeve even though they gave the community the green light." it's almost as if everyone wants GW to just reveal the primarchs through the HH books and save the embarrassment of a million primarchs vying for the canon spot.

 

I've actually been working on creating my own primarch to count as II or XI as a sort of easter egg for my DIY chapter, so he's not part of my overall fluff but an expansion of sorts (hopefully to keep the flamers off my back :D). I have his war gear and name and just the title of primarch since it would take a little time and effort to weave him into the greater story and explain his reasons for being lost, and I'm having high hopes i can learn how to make an awesome model to represent him similar to the other awesome primarch models (you know the ones). if I really make something bada** and enter it into the GD and my primarch becomes part of the canon then all hell will break loose over the other missing one, unless the officials don't even allow it (wishful thinking lol).

 

But to give my two cents into the answer, i say GW should just get rid of their "we didnt make them so you could, even though EVERYONE says its taboo" excuse and just give us a female primarch and some crazy dude with Emperor knows what kind of powers ^_^

 

or just hold some world wide GW DIY primarch contest similar to the campaigns and get it over with, i'm pretty sure a lot of people have some great ideas (including me :jaw: )

 

but until then.... Gog and Magog rule!!! < (Rise of the Tau)

[Mortare]

The Lightning Tower short story/audiobook, says there are 20 statues in the emperors palace for each of the primarchs. The 2nd and 11th have been removed, no one speaks of those absent brothers.

 

'Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberations. Had they in fact been warnings that no one had heeded'

[RagingGriffon]

The Lightning Tower short story/audiobook, says there are 20 statues in the emperors palace for each of the primarchs. The 2nd and 11th have been removed, no one speaks of those absent brothers.

 

'Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberations. Had they in fact been warnings that no one had heeded'

 

Sounds like they turned to Chaos to me. Score two more for the Ruinous Powers!

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

The Lightning Tower short story/audiobook, says there are 20 statues in the emperors palace for each of the primarchs. The 2nd and 11th have been removed, no one speaks of those absent brothers.

 

'Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberations. Had they in fact been warnings that no one had heeded'

 

Sounds like they turned to Chaos to me. Score two more for the Ruinous Powers!

 

I still think only one turned. The second had to hunt him down, both legions where destroyed in the process and the Emperor kept it secret to prevent further traitors

[Priest33]

Eh one turned the other one hunted them down sounds reasionable, prehaps the survivors of the one that hunted the other got mind wiped and became grey knights... since people seem to think they where made during the crusade/heresy.

[Hiram]

The problem that I see with the idea that the two legions wiped each other out is that in the Horus heresy books the authors make a real point of showing how the characters are so shocked at "brother" space marines fighting each other. To me this suggests that it hadn't happened before then. Of course the emperor may have done such a good job of expunging them from the records that nobody remembered that they wiped each other out :D

[Kurgan the Lurker]

no, the greatest explanation was the one that used to be canon, before they went crazy and tried to disassociate the two games.

 

 

ie: that sigmar from warhammer is one of the two lost primarchs and that world is trapped in the eye of terror.

 

 

why they got away from that i'll never understand, since it fit perfectly.

 

That one's the greatest because it was actually used at one point. But just like you said, they disassociated the games and now that's as fictional (within the games) as mine.

 

if you do read the story it does give a good interpretation on what happened and it even gives flashbacks (from the timeline of the story) to when they were "loyal" to the Emperor during the crusade.

 

and the Grey Knights can't be from any of the lost primarchs because I remember reading that they were made up of loyal marines who survived Istvaan V after choosing to go against their primarchs who chose chaos. so our Grey Knights truly deserve their status of incorruptible because they descend from the loyalists of the traitor legions.

 

 

Sigmar has never been a Primarch in any capacity in official fluff. Suggested or otherwise. It is entirely fan speculation that he could have been.

 

 

As for the possible Grey Knight connection, even in RT days they were described as either 2nd founding or "unknown founding" depending how far along in the fluff you are. I suspect we may find out more about them (and the formation of the Inquisition) in the upcoming Garro audio novels.

 

There is a passage in the original Codex: Ultramarine that talks about how it is believed that the 2 Legions fought for both sides as one point or another during the Heresy. The current HH series would seem to indicate that whatever they did happened during the Crusade rather than the Heresy and was bad enough to have them "removed" from Imperial history. Similar to how the Egyptians would try and wipe out a Pharaoh's memory by defacing statues and hieroglyphics.

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

Lads, Sigmar had parents and was born in some swamp in a pool of orc blood. Kinda stops him from being a Primarch. Legion of the Damned-doubt it, IIRC they're a 21st founding chapter that got lost in the warp or somesuch. Grey knights? Really doubt that, wouldn't they have been in the webway portal cleaning up after Magnus? Going by everything mentioned in the HH so far, I reckon at least one fell to chaos and started to mutate horribly(maybe worshipped Malal seeing as how the other 4 gods have a legion) and honestly not sure about the other one, but maybe they could have done something as simple as died? Or perhaps turn on everyone and just refuse to fight, becoming the first renegades.

[Priest33]

Sigmar has parents now, but in 2-5th ed (I believe) He didnt and "appeared" after a twin tailed comet raced across the sky. Was found in the wilderness by some chump and raised as his own son, then defended a village from a orc raid with a hammer and the rest WAS history, until GW decided to change wh's history again. WH was even linked by GW to 40k for a while untill tehy thought that was a bad idea and scraped it.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

Sigmar has parents now, but in 2-5th ed (I believe) He didnt and "appeared" after a twin tailed comet raced across the sky. Was found in the wilderness by some chump and raised as his own son, then defended a village from a orc raid with a hammer and the rest WAS history, until GW decided to change wh's history again. WH was even linked by GW to 40k for a while untill tehy thought that was a bad idea and scraped it.

 

Then this leads to a few other problems. Sigmar has never been reported as rapidly aging as the primarchs do nor is he known to have had their gigantic stature. Also the other primarchs effectivly conqured their homeworlds as they where created to be leaders which is how they where able to take controle where as Sigmar may have become a leader but only of a Empire which may be the largest of man but isn't exactly world conquring.

[Priest33]

He has been said to be a "giant of a man" and had an abnormal childhood (a stretch I know!) but yeah take from that what you will. He was also killed by Chaos's first chosen dun dun duuuunnnnn!

 

It doesnt work anyway with the changes to 40k's history that all of the primarch's where found and reunited with their respective legions, so its all for moot anyway.

[Hibberyjoo]

It may be possible that the lost Primarch's went to another galaxy, i.e. where the Tyranids came from?

Admittedly not explaining why their names were deleted from the records...

[Son of Rawl]

Right so what we do know is that;

A: They were both found

B: They were reunited with their respective legions

C: Both fought in the Crusade

D: Expunged from records before the Heresy and are considered a taboo subject

 

A Thousand Sons sheds some light on the subject of being deleted as he explains to the remembrancer.

 

My theory is that they lost faith in the Imperium and the Emperor and they abandoned the crusade and were either executed, imprisoned, or exiled.

[mr monster]

I'm a believer in the yin yang between the legions (the 10 imperial, 10 chaos). I suppose I'm saying that of the 2 legions missing, one would be loyalist and one aligned away from the emperor, otherwise it would throw the balance out.

 

Fantasy and 40k can never align, because it will imply either way that chaos or the empire prevails in the end. Gw cannot give that kind of limit to fantasy players. For example, do the empire annihilate chaos and the gods aren't seen for 'millenia'

 

I dunno, just thoughts.

[Codicier Lucion]

The reason of their disappearance might not have been directly related to Chaos. At least one of them could have become an Eldar pawn, influenced and given enough false information to turn them against the Emperor in an effort to stop the Heresy somehow.

 

Or perhaps one of them refused to bow to the Emperor’s will and attempted to succeed from the Imperium at one point. Perhaps one of them accidently encountered a C’Tan or the Star Dragon long before the Emperor readied them to face such an enemy, the Primarch and that Legion falling to early woken Necrons.