The Lost Primarchs

[SickSix]

Has any one ever thought maybe the two were undefined so that a player could create a heresy legion? Write stories of there conquests behind the scenes. Maybe now after all these years they have finally returned and are now trying to prove their allegents to the emperor after being gone for so many years. For those of you who write fluff you cant get a much better story line then that because most other things are so restrictive? Just throwin an idea out there. Not tryin to be rude.

 

Yes. In fact in the early days, it was said the two legions were left out to support DIY chapters. However, the Horus heresy has made there legacy finite. The ends of both Legions is known. Not to us yet, but the Primarchs know. My point being they did not survive post heresy so there is no room for DIY unless you do a VERY early pre-heresy army but even then they would have a short existence.

[BJORNin83]

But all Primarchs were reunited with their legions during the crusades though, unless they have retconned this somewhere

 

Okay well my understanding is that all Legions participated in the crusades, not all Primarchs.

Eventually, I think all "Legions" and their respective Primarch participated in the Great Crusade. By the time the HH hits, there are only 18 Primarchs AND Legions. I highly doubt they would have purged the 2 Primarchs from history without wiping their Legions as well.

[SickSix]

But all Primarchs were reunited with their legions during the crusades though, unless they have retconned this somewhere

 

Okay well my understanding is that all Legions participated in the crusades, not all Primarchs.

Eventually, I think all "Legions" and their respective Primarch participated in the Great Crusade. By the time the HH hits, there are only 18 Primarchs AND Legions. I highly doubt they would have purged the 2 Primarchs from history without wiping their Legions as well.

 

 

Ok you are missing my meaning. The Legions existed before being with their Primarchs. They fought in the Great Crusades before their Primarchs were found, even if only for a relatively short time. That's what I was getting at. Legion II would have fought in the the crusades before finding out their Primarch was lost/killed/mutated, and being assimilated into the UM(as an example only to illustrate my point).

[BJORNin83]

But all Primarchs were reunited with their legions during the crusades though, unless they have retconned this somewhere

 

Okay well my understanding is that all Legions participated in the crusades, not all Primarchs.

Eventually, I think all "Legions" and their respective Primarch participated in the Great Crusade. By the time the HH hits, there are only 18 Primarchs AND Legions. I highly doubt they would have purged the 2 Primarchs from history without wiping their Legions as well.

 

 

Ok you are missing my meaning. The Legions existed before being with their Primarchs. They fought in the Great Crusades before their Primarchs were found, even if only for a relatively short time. That's what I was getting at. Legion II would have fought in the the crusades before finding out their Primarch was lost/killed/mutated, and being assimilated into the UM(as an example only to illustrate my point).

oh ok, I get it. Although not ALL legions existed before their Primarch. The whole UM absorbtion thing is always a hot topic. I personally believe otherwise.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I'm sure i read somewhere that each aspect of the Emperor's personality was copied into the Primarchs, so could we try and determine the two missing features?

 

Angron - f@!# everyone, dammit, Imma kill all punks ever YARGH

Horus - Better than 20/20 vision, it's 20/15! Go Humanity!

Mortarion - Morose, I think?

Lorgar - Faith in Humanity....

Alpharius - Tricked ya! Sucker.

Perturabo - You'll never break my fortress. I'm too good, and too earthly of a guy.

Curze - Depressive, self–obsessed Emo personality aspect.

Magnus - Harry Potter aspect

Fulgrim - Damn I look good

 

? -

? -

 

Guilliman - Emperor always kept his desks organized...ALWAYS

Dorn - Loyal siege master

Sanguinius - Lookit me wings, daddy. And me good looks.

Khan - Um.....

The Lion - Secrets again...

Vulkan - I'm so buff

Corax - Strike from the shadows, you'll never see me coming

Ferrus Mannus - buff young Anakin I feel like

Russ - party animal

fixed

[Kodanshi]

^ Hah! Those are really good, I’m impressed. Though I would also add that Mortarion is smelly. Well, his whole Legion gets Nurgled. Plus in the upcoming Primarchs novellas book, you see Mortarion on the cover, and he has a giant green whiffy line emanating from him, foreshadowing his soon to be retch–inducing, stinky corruption.

[Iron Lord]

From an older thread:

 

At least that's what the Space Wolves seem to think.

 

In "The First Heretic", one of the Word Bearers thinks that each of the Primarchs represents a facet of the Emperor:

 

'You are all facets of the Emperor,' Kor Phaeron amended. 'You are aspects pulled from a genetic primer. The Lion is your father's rationally - his analytical skill - unburdened by conscience. Magnus is his psychic potential and eager mind, unrestrained by patience. Russ is his ferocity, untempered by reason. Even Horus...'

'Go on,' Lorgar said, looking up now. 'What of Horus?'

'The Emperor's ambition, unshaped by humility. '

 

 

I interpreted the second parts, as the bits the Emperor had, that weren't in the primarch.

 

Jonson- the Emperor's rationality without the Emperor's conscience.

Magnus- the Emperor's psychic potential and eager mind without the Emperor's patience.

Russ- the Emperor's ferocity, without the Emperor's reason.

Horus- the Emperor's ambition, without the Emperor's humility.

[Kodanshi]

^ Yes indeed. That stands to reason. Which also throws up the possibility that the Lionman’s actions depicted in Gav Thorpe’s Angels of Darkness could have been true. Pure rationality, ya dig.

[UltraCaptain]

We all know the world of warhammer is filled with lies, deception and a greatly altered truth. A truth decided by whoever is most powerfull.

This is what happend...

 

Chapter One

I believe there has been hints to the Emperor having a secret. Basicly, how does a human rise from the gene-pool of men, to suddenly one being alone have the power of a thosand men. With his later psyhic abilities, this may even be an underestimated value.

 

A strong rumor is that he got his powers from Chaos. This might be reasonable, that he struck a deal with chaos. Chaos would have a goal to get worshippers, a big figure in the material world to give people a choice "worship or die".. well, the reasons for this is not the debate.. but we DO know they was lacking a strong foothold in the material universe. That they was starting to get instrinct. And nearly became, as the emperor tribbled the effort to root out any worshippers.

 

Anyway. One trait that haven't really been touched by any primarch, is the ability or desire to seek or spot the truth. Sure a lot of primarchs are analystic, tactical masterminds. But truth is not equal being good. Its equal to whatever is correct. I think all of it leads to this primarch, who has the ability to find the truth, no matter how deeply rooted it might have been. He could have found out the truth about the Emperor's source of power. That gene-experiements alone wasn't what created nor modified him. That our golden father, spiritual leader, godlike figure, was weakening, battleing inner deamons (kept hidden) much like Fulgrim /w voices or similar dark destiny, an side-effect to the deal he made with the chaos gods. A dark secret, that alone would crush the faith in all of men, space marine and guardmen alike.

Although he DID defy the Gods. As such, he didn't hold his part of the barging. But what would the chaos Gods do? Doing all of this, the Emperor might only have been an extreamly intelligence human, with vision, idea, experiments, understand, perhaps also with strong physical traits, but nontheless mere human. And with a weak stronghold in the material world, they might not even have been able to punish him, perhaps wound, terrorise and create pain. But as we know, his will is incredibly strong. He could fight it, and as his effort to lessen their(chaos) grip in the universe, their effects might even have decreased or lessened.

 

Before confronting his father, the primarch would very likely have consulted a brother. Discussed if there really is something deeply wrong. Could their father truely be in ligue with dark powers. It would probably have been something hard to graspe. But in the end, he would have faced his father. Blandly speaking the truth with no strains attached. Making him the truth bearer, without constrains. Where the emperor would always know the truth aswell, but with secrecy with the "he dosnt know that i know" kind of advantag.

 

Nontheless, it could have lead to a huge debate. As a truth bearer, the primarch couldn't have been wrong, he had always been right, correct, spotted whenever a deep plot of deception had taken place among human cults, alien forces alike. Maybe even betwean brotherly bets and feuds.

 

In the end, he could have pushed the line. To a point where he would be declared heretic. Traitor. By mere logic, no one would have defyed the Emperor's ruling. No one else would stand up to him and question "is this truely right?" with brothers widthspread, they might even have been told before it was over. A primarch executed as a traitor, to hide the deep secret. Although it was a lie. We know from Horus Heresy, when fighting Horus, the Emperor can't grasp that it actually happend. His sons DID REBEL! Although officially it did happend, it actually now did.

 

With the lie out, his brothers would be told about the truth bearer -primarch's wrongdoing. That he had tried to assassinate/fight/murder/do wrong w/e reason fitting, to justify. This is much in line, if not near exact, what he did to Magnus and his legion. Declared heretic and systematiccly hunted and killed by the buther legion.

 

Although I believe the entire legion did not die. There was no huge fighting. No big battle of "we want to be right" simply acknowledging and the death of a primarch. The legion could either have been sentenced, given planetary duties or even start more secret orginizations. Heck, maybe even sentenced to eternal statis on terra. As the emperor knows, this legion wasn't actually traitors, although he did make them appear so.

 

Chapter Two

As for the second legion. There is a trial..

The truth primarch did confront his brother. He would probably not have told the Emperor of this, as it wouldn't nessecary have been relevant to bring up. However, the Emperor could still have learned of it. Afterall, he still has the ability to unlock the truth, albeit it might not have been spotted at the first glance. Maybe even first, when questioned by this second primarch with "i talked to my brother, i know what he was on about, but how could he turn against us? how did it happen?" He wouldn't have been so deeply rooted in thoughts has the truth primarch, heck.. he might even have thought of it much before a friendly chat with his father.

 

Upon learning of this, the Emperor could either have tried to dismiss or explain the idea. However, there would always be the fear of his son telling and discussing the issue with other brothers. Maybe it is even too late. So it would have to be stopped. Killing this primarch could probably not fit with being heretic.. so an accident would have to be constructed. We know ships get lost, crash, a servitor fires a gun or drops a cigar in the virus-bomb ammunition depot.... as we know, the emperor's wrath is a terrible thing..

 

Chapter Three

Basicly, the primarchs would need a reason as to what happend. The small space marine wouldn't require such information, although they might have been given a small lie or a half truth. The Emperor gave them this, heresy, defyance, but it would have to be kept hidden and for primarchs and for the highly ranked. That Heresy actually happend, although in a small scale, even the lie would have been small compared to true space marine heresy as we know. There might not even have been a battle.

 

As for the second primarch's trait. It could have been a female. A female with a trait non of her brothers possess; care. Genuine and loving with no deep or secret plot being her doings. She might not even realise what she did, when she questioned what had happend to the truth primarch. But it is a bit far fetched though. In the end, all the primarchs are ruthless warleaders. Without mercy for the emperor's enemies.

 

 

All of this would fit together with what we know

*that the primarchs died or was lost, on two seperate incidences

*that it had to be covered up, and couldn't have been true heresy as it was a brand new idea for the emperor(as he knew the first heresy was a lie) and the marines, but actually not so surprisingly for some primarchs, heck it might even have been a little thought in their mind, crafted in them by the emperor himself.

*that they fought doing the grand crusade, had a purpose, did their duty, had their traits

*i actually frimly believe it happend way before the heresy. IF two entire full legions would be at large, Horus would have to take immense measures to keep them in check. Also, if they DID turn traitor, why would these two legions require deletion, and none of the other 9. It wouldn't be logic, it has to have happend before the heresy. This "fact" is simply stated as a fact, because of the lack of action from Horus & co in the tactical outfold of the Horus Heresy novels. Nothing about them means they are extreamly likely not to have been there.

*that is it commen knowledge betwean primarchs to know what happend, dorn, magnus, horus.. several has spoken about it, but it has always been "shushed" as terrible, but fair and unavoidable incidences.

 

 

To sum it up. Just about every single theory here, is not even remotely dark and plotting enough to actually explain why such an enormous action would have been taken, why such an incredible accident suddenly happend. Or why something went bana-apple-mongo-wrong. If it ever went public, it would be a thing for the lore-fans which they'd be gone for 10 years reading all about it, and something which would be immensly profitable and in line with the typical warhammer 40k fluff.

In the end, only the Emperor could create a dark sceme deep enough to explain every hint that has been given to us. Even those contridicting eachother when seen through different eyes.

 

Also, those suggestion the legions were fully destroyed. I highly doubt that you can truely confirm that you killed exactly 203.123. marines and one primarch, though the latter is easier. If it was indeed a big battle, there'd be survivers, Istvan V had survivers, then anything can have survivers. Survivers who fled and who seek revenge. Its more likely they weren't actually truely evil. Secondly, it wouldn't fit the mentality-reality check every legion goes through in the HH-novels. That marines actually fight marines.

[Perrin]

I admit I haven't read all of your theory, cause its long, but the Emperor didn't get his powers from chaos, he is hundreds of ancient earth shaman reincarnated into one being. It is suggested that he got the power to make the Primarchs from chaos.

[Drucifer]

I have regular games against a CofE Vicar who always likens the big E to the big J and the primarchs to his disciples and that all faiths talk of super beings so the big E would probably be a future incarnation of one, his sons would have just as much scope for falling to evil as any other man would as there are many temptations out there for the powerful.

On a side note he does field an impressive Chaos horde that am sure is blessed by pure evil!

[Kodanshi]

I admit I haven't read all of your theory, cause its long, but the Emperor didn't get his powers from chaos, he is hundreds of ancient earth shaman reincarnated into one being. It is suggested that he got the power to make the Primarchs from chaos.

Isn't that old, abandoned fluff? I, for one, had never heard of it until I started posting on these forums and came across weirdness about a starchild or something.

[Conn Eremon]

Isn't that old, abandoned fluff? I, for one, had never heard of it until I started posting on these forums and came across weirdness about a starchild or something.

 

It hasn't been contradicted yet, which by GW standards means it's still canon. However, according to the Horus Heresy, and that background, the Warp is still the reason he got his abilities. If the background is true, he was only born because of a bunch of Shamans doing warp magic. Basically all dying at the exact same time, going into the Warp and forging a single soul out of themselves, and then reincarnating as a single human with his own individuality and personality, the Emperor. And then in the Horus Heresy it's talked about how he actually conversed with the Chaos Gods to some extent, and from them gained the ability to fully create the Primarchs.

 

However, the origin story is about 50,000 years old, and we already see how much myth influences 40k when it's only 10,000 years old. Plus, the evidence pointing towards the Emperor and Chaos while crafting the Primarchs was heavily influenced by Chaos itself. We don't really know for certain one way or the other, but we have possible examples leading towards one over the other.

 

I skipped a couple pages, so I don't know if it's already been brought up or not, but Space Wolves. I read a lot of posts describing how the surprise felt by the Loyalist Marines at being portrayed must mean there has been no prior inter-legionary conflicts. However, the Space Wolves are described as the Emperor's executioners, whose primary talent and use to the Emperor is to bring down wayward Legions. It's why they were tasked with the Thousand Sons in the first place, and they were the ones who took down the other two legions. So there is evidence of inter-legionary conflict pre-Heresy. Just certainly not the same scale. I like to think that there was always something 'off' with the Lost Primarchs and their legions. Moreso than the remaining 18. So when it happened, it was a shock but almost an expected one. Nobody expected Horus to fall, and that's why it was such a major surprise to all involved.

 

This is my first time posting, and I can't wait to talk to you guys about my Chapter, the Emerald Tigers, and get your help and take on it.

[Thirdfox]

I've been re-reading some of the Heresy books and i believe there are two particular lines in The First Heretic that have not yet been posted here. From page 163 of that book.

 

Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. Instead, he swore that he already lost two brothers and had no desire to lose a third.

 

The Word Bearers will not walk the same paths as the forgotten and the purged. I trust you Lorgar.

 

This occurred around forty-three years before the outbreak of the Heresy. This suggests that whatever happened to the Lost Legions, it was during the middle of the Great Crusade, not at the start of the Heresy. Also, since it was suggested in the Outcast Dead that the Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed against a brother Legion before, and since the Wolves themselves make no secret of their role as the Emperor's executioners, it would appear that the Burning of Prospero may have been the second time the Rout was used in this capacity. Plus, that should lay to rest any ideas that one of the Primarchs was a girl.

 

Just wanted to point that out. Apologies if someone has already posted that before me.

[frostclaw222]

The Rout being called to purge a legion previous to Magnus's faux pas long distance drunk dial runs square up against the idea that the legion(s) of the absent primarch(s) were merged with the Ultras.

 

Now you can split the ticket, and say Russ and company dropped the hammer on one unruly or otherwise undesirable primarch and legion after they were united, and that the other primarch was offed before being united with his legion and the marines were merged with the Ultras, and you satisfy both suggestions. This also satisfies the second line of Lorgar's that Thirdfox is quoting above if we take Lorgar literally: one purged, one lost. But this doesn't cover the Malcador/Dorn conversation, wherein Dorn suggests that the two missing primarchs were somehow retrievable.

 

Could the Emperor have imprisoned two of his sons instead of having them executed? Then the lost and purged lines would apply strictly to the legions, not the primarchs themselves.

 

Not sure where this leaves us, but have been rereading Prospero Burns, and thought I'd lend a hand.

[Iron Lord]

When the Emperor discovers Corax (flashback scene in Deliverance Lost) he tells him about his 17 brothers- Corax notes that, in his memory, he was tank 19- and the Emperor hints that something unfortunate happened.

[Legatus]

The Rout being called to purge a legion previous to Magnus's faux pas long distance drunk dial runs square up against the idea that the legion(s) of the absent primarch(s) were merged with the Ultras.

No problems, then, since the latter idea is flat out ridiculous. Thankfully the author of that line has come out and explained that it was never meant as anything more than a few Word Bearers giving in to wild conspiracy theories, but then how are people not following his BnC posts supposed to know... Still, no need to accommodate that idea in explanations of the whereabout of the missing Legions in any way.

[Gofy]

Even though the Astartes Legions are (slightly) based on the Roman Legions, None of the Legions that the Romans disbanded have reasons that would be "valid" in 40K (the reasons that these are not valid in 40K are listed below). Some that I found as for why the Romans disbanded Legions are:

 

-cowardice (Astartes Know no Fear)

-failure (It would take a lot of powerful Xenos to cause the failure of the missing Astartes Legion(s))

-All out rebellion (AKA HH type action- already discussed)

 

probably off topic, but just some (real world) ideas

 

Gofy

[Hyaenidae]

Also, those suggestion the legions were fully destroyed. I highly doubt that you can truely confirm that you killed exactly 203.123. marines and one primarch, though the latter is easier. If it was indeed a big battle, there'd be survivers, Istvan V had survivers, then anything can have survivers. Survivers who fled and who seek revenge. Its more likely they weren't actually truely evil. Secondly, it wouldn't fit the mentality-reality check every legion goes through in the HH-novels. That marines actually fight marines.

 

I have only one response to this... "Kneel, Lorgar". It wouldn't have taken a legion to kill a legion...just the Emperor of Mankind.

 

Before the Emperor sunk a huge portion of his power into his secret machinations below Terra, he was an absolute beast. He forced an entire Legion...I repeat... an entire freakin' Legion, to kneel in the dust of their greatest failure. Had he wanted to, the Emperor could've snuffed the entire Word Bearers Legion right there on the spot.

[Unintentional Batman]

And yet he was almost strangled to death by an Ork.

[Hyaenidae]

I blame Mork on that one. :tu:

 

Seriously, not sure what's up with that. Maybe it's just because the Primarchs are genetically (and somewhat psychically) linked to ol' Dad, making them more susceptible to his commands. Horus had the protection of the Gods to keep the Emperor out of his head above Terra, but the second they ditched their champion, the (now much weaker) Emperor turned him into a corpse with a thought.

[Arkangilos]

I blame Mork on that one. :P

 

Seriously, not sure what's up with that. Maybe it's just because the Primarchs are genetically (and somewhat psychically) linked to ol' Dad, making them more susceptible to his commands. Horus had the protection of the Gods to keep the Emperor out of his head above Terra, but the second they ditched their champion, the (now much weaker) Emperor turned him into a corpse with a thought.

 

Well remember, they left him BECAUSE of that. They bailed out when they felt the Emperor finally fighting back, and he was only beat up so bad because he refused to fight his beloved son.

 

 

I think that the thing with an Ork is either exaggerated by people (I mean, we don't have an actual account anyways, just a second hand source that says that the Emperor was saved, right? and that in itself could just be propaganda making Horus sound even more worthy of the title of warmaster!) or the Emperor planned it (for propaganda purposes).

[Greyall]

Well, if there's one thing we've learned from all the HH novels is that, no matter how much of a [demi]god you are, the rule of Predator applies: if it bleeds, it can be killed. Bolter rounds to the head kill Primarchs almost as surely as they do a Space Marine, swords through the chest hurt them as hell, they don't survive an exploding spaceship any more than I'd do...so, if they do have working, necessary organs, both the Primarchs and the Emperor can be killed with enough physical punishment. What their perfected physiology seems to do - regarding resistance - is keep them alive for much longer in those cases of "almost got him" wounds. They re-knit fast as hell.

 

But the Emperor's true nature and advantage, no matter how strong he is, lies in his psychic prowess - the same happens with Magnus, in a smaller scale. So, when you pummel the Big E to near death, you're basically cracking the shell of a psychic supernova.

 

Still, and according to the Visions of Heresy final book, the Emperor was holding back a lot, his goal was to, say, break Horus' arms and legs and try to purge him of the Chaos Gods' influence. Problem is, Horus did this to himself, he was the one that allowed the Four Bastards into his mind. The book also mentions how the Emperor needed every iota of concentration and power focused into a single beam to bring Horus down (the Chaos Gods left the Warmaster's body right before said beam struck). The killer thought came afterwards, and was basically a mercy strike, performed after Horus was already a husk.

 

Edit: Don't think the Ork thing is an exxageration. A large enough Ork Warboss (and I mean a once-every-million-years kind of beastie) can be as physically strong as a Primarch or even the Emperor.

[Pulse]

Well, if there's one thing we've learned from all the HH novels is that, no matter how much of a [demi]god you are, the rule of Predator applies: if it bleeds, it can be killed. Bolter rounds to the head kill Primarchs almost as surely as they do a Space Marine, swords through the chest hurt them as hell, they don't survive an exploding spaceship any more than I'd do...so, if they do have working, necessary organs, both the Primarchs and the Emperor can be killed with enough physical punishment. What their perfected physiology seems to do - regarding resistance - is keep them alive for much longer in those cases of "almost got him" wounds. They re-knit fast as hell.

I thought that was obvious even before the HH series. I guess it wasn't for everyone! :)

 

But the Emperor's true nature and advantage, no matter how strong he is, lies in his psychic prowess - the same happens with Magnus, in a smaller scale. So, when you pummel the Big E to near death, you're basically cracking the shell of a psychic supernova.

 

Still, and according to the Visions of Heresy final book, the Emperor was holding back a lot, his goal was to, say, break Horus' arms and legs and try to purge him of the Chaos Gods' influence. Problem is, Horus did this to himself, he was the one that allowed the Four Bastards into his mind. The book also mentions how the Emperor needed every iota of concentration and power focused into a single beam to bring Horus down (the Chaos Gods left the Warmaster's body right before said beam struck). The killer thought came afterwards, and was basically a mercy strike, performed after Horus was already a husk.

 

Edit: Don't think the Ork thing is an exxageration. A large enough Ork Warboss (and I mean a once-every-million-years kind of beastie) can be as physically strong as a Primarch or even the Emperor.

This i agree on.

 

As already said the Ork was a freak of nature that comes around very rarely and so it is possible that it could have been supremely powerful.

[Greyall]

I thought that was obvious even before the HH series. I guess it wasn't for everyone! :D

 

Blame superhero comic books. I grew up watching bullets ricochet on skin and spandex. =)