The First Heretic

[Legatus]

I have not read "The First Heretic" yet. In the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos and the Word Bearers Index Astartes the Legion had been reprimanded for being too slow and wasting their time converting populations to the Imperial faith instead of doing what Space Marines were supposed to do, to conquer the remaining human worlds in the galaxy. Not making good progress is no reason to destroy or disband a Legion at all. However, from what I remember from the sneak peek excerpt of the meeting between Malcador and Lorgar I remember it being more about how the Word Bearers were preaching a faith that the Emperor did not want his Imperium to have, and not so much about slower progress. Is that what the book says? In that case I feel that A D-B has deviated a bit from the original background.

[increaso]

I have not read "The First Heretic" yet. In the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos and the Word Bearers Index Astartes the Legion had been reprimanded for being too slow and wasting their time converting populations to the Imperial faith instead of doing what Space Marines were supposed to do, to conquer the remaining human worlds in the galaxy. Not making good progress is no reason to destroy or disband a Legion at all. However, from what I remember from the sneak peek excerpt of the meeting between Malcador and Lorgar I remember it being more about how the Word Bearers were preaching a faith that the Emperor did not want his Imperium to have, and not so much about slower progress. Is that what the book says? In that case I feel that A D-B has deviated a bit from the original background.

 

Partly the faith point and partly the slow conquest.

 

 

Lorgar basically gets told that every world he has brought into the fold needs revisiting, because he has failed to bring them to proper compliance by spreading the 'God-Emperor' rubbish. He is also told that his legion, second in size only to the Ultramarines, is too slow, because they are spending so much time on diplomacy and preaching and not enough on doing what Astartes are made to do i.e. war.

 

[A D-B]

I have not read "The First Heretic" yet. In the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos and the Word Bearers Index Astartes the Legion had been reprimanded for being too slow and wasting their time converting populations to the Imperial faith instead of doing what Space Marines were supposed to do, to conquer the remaining human worlds in the galaxy. Not making good progress is no reason to destroy or disband a Legion at all. However, from what I remember from the sneak peek excerpt of the meeting between Malcador and Lorgar I remember it being more about how the Word Bearers were preaching a faith that the Emperor did not want his Imperium to have, and not so much about slower progress. Is that what the book says? In that case I feel that A D-B has deviated a bit from the original background.

 

The Emperor makes it clear it's about both - one is the result of the other.

[calgar101]

Yeah their slow process was a by product of them making worlds worship Him(against his desire and will) with "every sunrise".

[Legatus]

Yes, obviously their slow progress was due to them staying behind on conquered worlds and overseeing the construction of cathedrals and temples. But in the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos and the Word Bearers Index Astartes I did get the impression that the Emperor was mainly concerned with them being too slow. He saw the efforts in piety as a waste of time, but not necessarily as an additional reason to be upset with the Word Bearers.

 

But I see that Alan Merrett had slightly altered that for the Collected Visions book, where the Emperor is indeed dismayed at the conduct of the Word Bearers, and is not merely seeing it as a waste of time. In that light I can of course understand that the novel would adhere to that.

 

Btw. in collected visions it is made clear that Lorgar had been ruthless in enforcing the imperial doctrine on the worlds he conquered, which was also something the Emperor regretted. Is that mentioned in "The First Heretic"?

[A D-B]

Btw. in collected visions it is made clear that Lorgar had been ruthless in enforcing the imperial doctrine on the worlds he conquered, which was also something the Emperor regretted. Is that mentioned in "The First Heretic"?

 

Negatory. But there's a reason for that. The only 'looking back' to past worlds is done by Lorgar, who shines everything up in his own special way. He speaks about how grand everything was; how glorious; how it was perfect, and so on. I want the moment of "Are you kidding me? You guys were fanatically religious tyrants sometimes" to come when the Legion confronts the Ultramarines at Calth, and the Word Bearers are brought face to face with their sins.

 

As it stands, the Word Bearers are pretty much the only Legion still in possession of their Remembrancers. The tyrannies of the past are going to catch up to them when they unleash the sins of the future, especially as Argel Tal is a reflective soul.

 

Narratively speaking, it's not an omission, it's a more dramatic reveal to have it in The Two Towers or The Empire Strikes Back, rather than blow everything in Fellowship or A New Hope.

[increaso]

I certainly feel that the Lorgar we see at the end of TFH has huge steps to take to become the daemon prince we have in 40k. He seems like a broken man in 30k with many doubts and regrets.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Dark Council (in 40k) had murdered Lorgar and just told everyone that he is in some tower writing his book with a 'do not disturb' sign on the door.

[Legatus]

Negatory. But there's a reason for that. The only 'looking back' to past worlds is done by Lorgar, who shines everything up in his own special way. He speaks about how grand everything was; how glorious; how it was perfect, and so on. I want the moment of "Are you kidding me? You guys were fanatically religious tyrants sometimes" to come when the Legion confronts the Ultramarines at Calth, and the Word Bearers are brought face to face with their sins.

I see, yes, that makes sense.

 

I only fear that when it is going to be the Ultramarines confronting them with the "truth" it will be taken by the majority of the readers as the Ultramarines just being biased. It seems people commonly interprete books that way. Some "not really canonical" statement is presented in the beginning, and is immediately taken as the new truth, even if that may then later be contested by someone claiming events are closer to canon. But you mentioned Argel Tal reflecting on it, so I suspect you already have figured out how to reveal that, without it solely relying on Ultramarines making accusations.

 

I guess I should finally start reading a few Horus Heresy books. I cannot miss the battle for Calth. I wonder if it is going to be a two parter like the Battle for Prospero, like you suggested. And also who will be writing the Ultramarine side. (Though I have a suspicion...)

[quiethood]

Oh, I can not wait until the next book! I can just see that complete pucker look on the Word Bearer's collective faces. That is one thing that I loved about TFH, you just feel like it's the ultimate set up. Chaos looks too good to be true. I mean come on, they're called deamons for a reason. It's especially nice when Lorgar goes to confront Corax, and it feels like Lorgar steps into who he is supose to be. He realizes just how much power he has in his destiny, which means he'll see just how much he damned the human race, when he finally sees his own sins. Oh, I can't wait! But will Lorgar cry like Luke? Or will he just put his fingers in his ears and go, "I'm not listening!"? Or maybe he'll just tell the smurfs, "Silience! I kill you!"

I watched the video interview on ADB's blog, and I just want to know, are they giving you the World Eaters? OMG! That would be finominal. There may be hope in the WE not being merely the one sided characters they tend to be in most 40k fiction. I'll give 2 examples:

Writer 1

The World Eater sergeant looks to his squad, and feels a since of loathing rush over him. Why has one of his own men dared to bring a lascannon? He then surveys the array of walls and razor wire laid out before him, and roars his frustrations to the skies above. His arm flashes like quick silver, chainaxe in hand, and the poor excuse for an Eater of World's lay beheaded, his lascannon still gripped in his all too dead hands. "Blood for the Blood God! Charge!"

Writer 2(ADB style, kinda more of a sucky interpretation)

Imense Imperial firepower rained in on the World Eater position, while other Imperial forces moved closer in an effort to try and flush out their traitorous prey. World Eater sergeant Gubnin scoffedd as he saw Rhino APC's marked with the Lightning bolt symbol of the Khan. They sought to out manouver him, so like the White Scars. Looking to his men, a wry smile ceased his lips, the Blood God favored them this day, for Sheng Mal had remembered his trusted lascannon. "Sheng Mal, on my mark, 2 burst to the Rhinos. Then we charge the fools of Khan. Their Imperial brothers are not like our Iron Warrior brothers, they will stop shooting while we are engaged." Gubnin spat acidic bile towards the enemy, " After that, we keep moving. Let nothing stand in our way. For honor and Angron. Death to the false Emperor!"

 

Yes, I know, there's no chance of me ever being a writer with chops like that, but I hope I illustrated my point. I know it's probably been said somewhere else, but is the short story by ADB that's going to be in the next HH collection gonna be Word Bearer or Night Lord related?

[Dark Mechanicum]

@Khestra: By the way awesome description on page 7 comparing the The Time War from Doctor Who with a Gellar field in 40k so that made me smile.

 

@quiethood: according to his blog and some random posts we have a Dark Angel short story, if it isn't it would still be cool to see.

[shatter]

Narratively speaking, it's not an omission, it's a more dramatic reveal to have it in The Two Towers or The Empire Strikes Back, rather than blow everything in Fellowship or A New Hope.

 

You do know you're going to go to hell for putting Tolkien and Lucas in the same sentence, right?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

@Khestra: By the way awesome description on page 7 comparing the The Time War from Doctor Who with a Gellar field in 40k so that made me smile.

 

I like to take advantage of my huge geekness for allegorical reference whenever possible. :P

[Dark Mechanicum]

@Khestra: By the way awesome description on page 7 comparing the The Time War from Doctor Who with a Gellar field in 40k so that made me smile.

 

I like to take advantage of my huge geekness for allegorical reference whenever possible. :P

 

Awesome geekness references and all that jazz.

[Wrath of Terra]

Just finished it yesterday. Epic.

 

Pretty much every point I thought to raise has been already brought up on this thread so I'll skip right to the one thing that's been niggling me since the beginning of the book (pedant that I am).

 

How did "merely human" Malacador survive a blow from an honest to goodness 10ft+ tall Primarch.....?

[Ethrion]

Just finished it yesterday. Epic.

 

Pretty much every point I thought to raise has been already brought up on this thread so I'll skip right to the one thing that's been niggling me since the beginning of the book (pedant that I am).

 

How did "merely human" Malacador survive a blow from an honest to goodness 10ft+ tall Primarch.....?

 

I would say he must be more than "merely human". His form may be of a weak old man but there must be more to him than just his physical self. I mean he does withstand the Golden Throne for the Emperor later. And perhaps the blow wasn't at full strength by Lorgar.

[Valkyrion]

Malcador survived the same way a dog would survive being tapped on the head by a 6' tall man.

Unless the man really really wants to hurt the dog, the dog is fine but chastened.

If Lorgar wanted to put his full strength in to it then Malcador would likely have died. Same with the dog.

[Solid Zaku]

Agreed. Lorgar's intent wasn't to kill Malcador, it was to shut him up.

[EPK]

I have a question regarding the Gal Vorbak and how many drop poded down after the Custodians....

 

 

In the aftermath, it is noted that Corax slew nearly two dozen and that only 11 Gal Vorbak remained. When Argel Tal gave the order to go after the Custodians, who's thunderhawk had been shot down, he called the the Gal Vorbak to the flight deck. Are we to assume that all 11 went down?

 

The final fight happened quite fast - probably due to how little Argel Tal actually remembered - but is the following accurate -

 

Kalhin dies near the end of the novel on the flagship as they fight the robot Incaradine. The remaining 3 Custodians crash on Isstvan V, 11 Gal Vorbak drop pod down after them (not all are namedl)

 

1) Nirllus kills Malnor only to be struck down by Torgal and Sicar

2) Aquillon avenges Nirllus, killing Sicar but is in turn to be quickly beheaded by Argel Tal (I wanted a better death for him)

 

At this point it remarks that only 6 Gal Vorbak were left standing, though it did not detail all of the others deaths

 

3) Sythran kills Xaphen, breaks his vow, and takes on the remaining 5 possessed Gal Vorbak

 

So the tally after Xaphen would have been 6 Gal Vorbak killed? Meaning it went something like this - In the moments between Nirllus's and Sicar's death, Aquillon managed to dispatch one other not mentioned and than kill Sicar. Sythran managed to kill two in that time before Aquillon is beheaded and scores his third with Xaphen.

 

 

My brain hurts now....

 

--------------------

 

Second little tid bit,

I noticed that Aquillon and his Custodians came out from the shadow of the thunderhawk's wing. I really though that would spell Argel Tal's death, as in some weird irony the prophecy of his death not being at the hands of Corax, but by Aquillon. This obviously didn't happen and in retrospect, Argel Tal's "death" was obviously due to Corax and that is what caused his ascension and complete communion with the daemon.

 

[lords2001]

Second little tid bit,

I noticed that Aquillon and his Custodians came out from the shadow of the thunderhawk's wing. I really though that would spell Argel Tal's death, as in some weird irony the prophecy of his death not being at the hands of Corax, but by Aquillon. This obviously didn't happen and in retrospect, Argel Tal's "death" was obviously due to Corax and that is what caused his ascension and complete communion with the daemon.

 

I would suggest that Sanguinius kills him at Terra.

[Solid Zaku]

Remember, Corax DID kill him. The Daemon simply keeps his soul along to make it's transition into realspace more permanent. I am your friend....

[EPK]

I would suggest that Sanguinius kills him at Terra.

 

That may still be true, but I believe that the Word Bearers will engage the Ultramarines - one of the two largest legions pitted against each other - and neither takes place in the seige of Terra... or perhaps I am mistaken.

 

 

Remember, Corax DID kill him. The Daemon simply keeps his soul along to make it's transition into realspace more permanent. I am your friend....

 

Yes, that is my conclusion too. He did, but he didn't... double edged sword, like most things that deal with the warp.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just finished it after 8 hours of straight reading. I loved it. A D-B has done an excellent job of painting Lorgar's fall and the changes to the Word Bearers in a sympathetic light.

 

 

After reading it I feel like there were no right or wrong sides in the Heresy, merely points of view that inevitably led to conflict. I love mythology, and the fact that Chaos, regardless of its inherently corrupting and 'evil' nature, is simply man's natural state and an unfeeling and demanding religion. The Word Bearer's realize this and follow it simply because its the natural order. They are not malicious, though their actions could be deemed as evil from a traditional moral and ethical standpoint, they are simply devoted. Its kind of beautiful really.

[BearersOfSalvation]

How did "merely human" Malacador survive a blow from an honest to goodness 10ft+ tall Primarch.....?

 

First, Malcador isn't a mere human, he's the second most powerful psyker known, so he's a bit beyond being a simple ordinary person, more like Commissar Yarrick or one of the other heroic characters. Lorgar makes several insults that don't seem to be based on real facts (Malcador as just a human and Custodes as genetic rejects are the two big ones)

 

Second, a normal human could probably survive the blow two. Lorgar wasn't trying to make a real killing blow, he just backhanded Malcador. A backhanded punch (often called a 'pimp slap') is not something you use in a serious fight, it's what you do to cow and slightly injure someone weaker than you. Note that Lorgar didn't just backhand Guilliman, since Guilliman was clearly his equal.

[Wrath of Terra]

How did "merely human" Malacador survive a blow from an honest to goodness 10ft+ tall Primarch.....?

 

First, Malcador isn't a mere human, he's the second most powerful psyker known, so he's a bit beyond being a simple ordinary person, more like Commissar Yarrick or one of the other heroic characters. Lorgar makes several insults that don't seem to be based on real facts (Malcador as just a human and Custodes as genetic rejects are the two big ones)

 

Second, a normal human could probably survive the blow two. Lorgar wasn't trying to make a real killing blow, he just backhanded Malcador. A backhanded punch (often called a 'pimp slap') is not something you use in a serious fight, it's what you do to cow and slightly injure someone weaker than you. Note that Lorgar didn't just backhand Guilliman, since Guilliman was clearly his equal.

 

 

I am well aware of how powerful a psyker Malcador is but, presumably, his body and frame are that of a human like you or I. Even a 'pimp slap' from someone like Lorgar would be fatal I would imagine. As a primarch it's fair to guess he's 10ft+. On another thread on the subject of primarch height there was speculation some of them were 15ft+. Now, something that size, in armour, pimp slapping a regular human in the head hard enough to send them flying through the air would would have more than enough force to kill.

[Gree]

How did "merely human" Malacador survive a blow from an honest to goodness 10ft+ tall Primarch.....?

 

First, Malcador isn't a mere human, he's the second most powerful psyker known, so he's a bit beyond being a simple ordinary person, more like Commissar Yarrick or one of the other heroic characters. Lorgar makes several insults that don't seem to be based on real facts (Malcador as just a human and Custodes as genetic rejects are the two big ones)

 

Second, a normal human could probably survive the blow two. Lorgar wasn't trying to make a real killing blow, he just backhanded Malcador. A backhanded punch (often called a 'pimp slap') is not something you use in a serious fight, it's what you do to cow and slightly injure someone weaker than you. Note that Lorgar didn't just backhand Guilliman, since Guilliman was clearly his equal.

 

 

I am well aware of how powerful a psyker Malcador is but, presumably, his body and frame are that of a human like you or I. Even a 'pimp slap' from someone like Lorgar would be fatal I would imagine. As a primarch it's fair to guess he's 10ft+. On another thread on the subject of primarch height there was speculation some of them were 15ft+. Now, something that size, in armour, pimp slapping a regular human in the head hard enough to send them flying through the air would would have more than enough force to kill.

 

Look at Russ on the cover of Prospero Burns, he's barely taller than the Sisters of Silence.