Sons of Horus Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 The final battle was amazingly written. Corax became a total bad@$$ and Konrad Curze became an extremely epic super bad@$$ (as if the Night Haunter needs to be even cooler than he already is). Great job ADB And yes I loved the death of Xaphen!! ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 My reason why I think it was a well spun lie is purely rational. If a chaos daemon had the ability to go back in time and destroy the Emperor's plans for his primarchs, why not go back in time again when the heresy fails? That is seriously SO MUCH power even the Chaos gods themselves cannot have. Otherwise there would be no rules... I loved the way it was handled though. That is not to say that what they saw could have been completely true or completely false... the point is that it worked. Perhaps it was an echo of something that did in fact happen (similar to "showing" them the past of the Eldar) the daemon showed them how some chaos turned entitiy (wouldn't it be funny if it was somebody like a custodes) did exactly that. But these are just wild ideas. I like that it is kept open ended not to spoil and explain the entire event. I wonder if one day, maaaany years from now when the HH series is over, GW will release something similar to the "Collected Visions", an anthology where all of the new events will be included. But I guess that would be a monster of a book and some people prefer not to be told how it actually was, since it stops them from making up their own theories. PS Yes, Xaphen's death was great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I'm just looking forward to someone finally killing Erebus in a later novel! I think we all do, but I´m afraid it´s not going to happen. IIRC, Erebus survived the Heresy and became a powerful Chaos servant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 So I noticed from a similar thread in the Chaos forum. I think GW under estimated just how hated this character would be when they created their stories. I think they could provide a comprimise though; kill him off but his power allows him to possess a brother Marine like Lucius does. Only a one off event so as not to be a cheesey copy cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 And of course the Emperor warned Magnus of bargaining with such beings, and that could be because he had first hand experience of the matter. The reason I don't think the Emperor made such bargains is the usual cost of such bargains. Chaos never gives you something for free. At a minimum, a gift of knowledge to create something really awesome like a Primarch would have involved mass sacrifices and a piece of your soul. Since as far as we know the Emperor made no mass sacrifices and wasn't tainted by Chaos, he could not have made such a bargain. I suppose you could argue that in a rare display of planning for the future the Chaos gods were playing the long game, getting the Emperor to do for them what they could not do for themselves, create awesome mortal servants. It's not like there was anybody in the employ of Chaos that could do as much with that knowledge as the Emperor. In this line of thinking, they really did give the Emperor great knowledge for free, believing they would be able to corrupt his creations later. This knowledge could only create affinity for the warp, not outright corruption, otherwise the Emperor would have seen right through it. That's why so many of the Primarchs were psykers, and only half of them turned. In this scenario claiming the Emperor cheated on his bargain is a lie, because the bargain imposed no duty to give anything back to Chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 It is possible The Emperor is powerful enough to make the deal and then get away without paying them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I think he is too smart(yeah there have been situations where he shows a grand stupidity) to have made a deal with them and not followed through. To me that is some thing he just wouldn't do and personally I hope he hasn't as its kind of a lame idea in my view. Codex chaos says how they feared his ambitions and using that and other evidence and my own thoughts I reckon he used the warp(vast amounts of it) in the creating of the Primarchs and the gods got annoyed(an understatement) at this as they believe the warp is theirs and the Tzeentch saw a future with the Emperor and Primarchs having conquered the galaxy and the end of chaos etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I don't feel like the Emperor made any deals with the chaos gods. I think thats a basic lie by the daemons to help convince the Word Bearers. I agree with the theory that he used the warp to make the primarchs and the gods got annoyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I think he did make a deal with the Chaos Gods. I think his payment was / is his time on the Golden Throne. Or maybe the payment is all the souls lost in the Horus Heresy. Oh and Breaking the vow of silence to talk $#!+ to Xaphen was sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearersOfSalvation Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 My reason why I think it was a well spun lie is purely rational. If a chaos daemon had the ability to go back in time and destroy the Emperor's plans for his primarchs, why not go back in time again when the heresy fails? That is seriously SO MUCH power even the Chaos gods themselves cannot have. Otherwise there would be no rules... Time works differently in the warp, it is within the fluff that Chaos can affect other times. They don't have the ability to pick an arbitrary time and go straight to it and do whatever they want, but finding a time 'now' that's connected to the creation of the Primarchs and using Astartes with a blood connection to the Primarchs to do the actual damage is within what they can do. There are limits on what they can do, but they don't neccessarily make logical sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 My reason why I think it was a well spun lie is purely rational. If a chaos daemon had the ability to go back in time and destroy the Emperor's plans for his primarchs, why not go back in time again when the heresy fails? That is seriously SO MUCH power even the Chaos gods themselves cannot have. Otherwise there would be no rules... Notice, however, that by its own admission, the daemon itself was powerless to alter the course of history; the Emperor would have detected and destroyed it, just as the Chaos gods themselves could not have breached that Gellar Field and prevented the Emperor from simply banishing them away with the sheer force of his mind. It required something not of the Warp to actually perform the deed and give Chaos the in for the snatch. Trying to do the same at the siege of Terra would have been insta-banish; the presence of the Emperor seems to be quite the anti-Chaos field by himself. That's quite a risk to assume over a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Yeah but I think what is confusing people is Daemons can't just transpose through a Gellar field on a ship even if they still don't have the power to manipulate things. That is why some of us have put forward our theories on how Chaos got round this conundrum. I personally like the idea they just up and possessed technicians there who were outside the gellar field at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Yeah but I think what is confusing people is Daemons can't just transpose through a Gellar field on a ship even if they still don't have the power to manipulate things. That is why some of us have put forward our theories on how Chaos got round this conundrum. I personally like the idea they just up and possessed technicians there who were outside the gellar field at the time. I prefer to go the Doctor Who a'la "The End of Time" approach. A Geller field acts like a Timelock; as long as its up nothing can get in or out, unless already connected to something on both sides; we know Possession ignores Geller fields, as does Chaos sorcery, so it stands to reason that a Geller field isn't the same as what the Dark Eldar or Necrons use to block the Warp entirely, but is instead a shield that prevents a physical manifestation of a Warp entity into the time/space inside the field itself, not without some medium NOT of the Warp for it to anchor to. In the case of The First Heretic, I don't find it impossible to believe that the daemon "hitchhiked" with the Astartes to get through the field, but was still bound by the problem inherent in being a daemon doing time-travel and couldn't physically or psychically do anything to manipulate the physical realm of that time. It needed something with a connection already in place in the past, as well as something not constrained by the Geller field, and the Astartes have both of those: a physical presence not affected by a Geller field, and a connection to the past via their own geneseed because their Primarch was physically there, in his capsule, which means they exist in the same time/place as the event thanks to their link with Lorgar and there not being a paradox, and could physically alter the physical realm of that time barring being stopped directly by the Emperor. And I just realized I've been misspelling "Geller" this entire time. :turned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reldn Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Sure looks that way. My beef is that becoming disenchanted (for example) with the Pope doesn't make Satanism palatable to an ex-Catholic. Since that's basically what Lorgar did, it makes him look totally insane. Your metaphor is incorrect. A more fitting one would be that Lorgar was the Pope, and God just told him that not only was he wrong to be a Pope, but that God wasn't in fact God. Then Odin comes along and says "yo." Sorry for off-topicness, but, Khestra, Do you mind if I sig that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Sure looks that way. My beef is that becoming disenchanted (for example) with the Pope doesn't make Satanism palatable to an ex-Catholic. Since that's basically what Lorgar did, it makes him look totally insane. Your metaphor is incorrect. A more fitting one would be that Lorgar was the Pope, and God just told him that not only was he wrong to be a Pope, but that God wasn't in fact God. Then Odin comes along and says "yo." Sorry for off-topicness, but, Khestra, Do you mind if I sig that? Not at all. I only trademark Chapter names. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Just finished the book yesterday and its easily my favorite book of the series. The last 150 pages I could not put it down. TBH I'm not sure if the daemon was lying or not but one odd moment for me was how the Emperor handled Logar at the beginning of the book. From what I recall Logar sounded like he proclaimed the Emperor a god the moment they met. If the Emperor didn't like that why didn't he correct Logar then. I mean even assuming the Emperor figured Logar would eventually stop it once he got under way with leading his Legion. Why wait 100 years of Logar not stopping then suddenly sending the Ultramarines to wreck one of Logars planets? Not to mention making the entire Legion kneel in the ash and dust while he said everything Logar had done had been for nothing. Seems like he could have handled it a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Maybe there is more to it than just the Word Bearer's opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lords2001 Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 I'm just looking forward to someone finally killing Erebus in a later novel! Sorry mate, according to the Dark Apostle series, Erebus is well and alive in the 41st Millenium. Along with Kor Phaeron etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 ...one odd moment for me was how the Emperor handled Lorgar at the beginning of the book. From what I recall Lorgar sounded like he proclaimed the Emperor a god the moment they met. If the Emperor didn't like that why didn't he correct Lorgar then. I mean even assuming the Emperor figured Lorgar would eventually stop it once he got under way with leading his Legion. Why wait 100 years of Lorgar not stopping then suddenly sending the Ultramarines to wreck one of Lorgar's planets? Not to mention making the entire Legion kneel in the ash and dust while he said everything Lorgar had done had been for nothing. Seems like he could have handled it a lot better. I agree. With hindsight the Emperor should have handled the situation better, it certainly was a massive slap in the face for Lorgar the way in which he was told. But throughout the history its quite apparent that the Emperor isn't infallible and does make errors of judgment. On a side note I loved the way A-D-B made the Ultramarines out to be the evil bad guys at the beginning. Opening fire on the crowd and generally being utterly ruthless. It made a nice change of pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daren Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 On a side note I loved the way A-D-B made the Ultramarines out to be the evil bad guys at the beginning. Opening fire on the crowd and generally being utterly ruthless. It made a nice change of pace. Yeah I also thought that. Also helps set the stage for the big throw down between the Word Bears and Ultramarines later on. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandOfDorn Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Yeah Erebus and Kor Phaeron are both still alive sadly, and they are important figures in the Black Crusades, annoyingly alongside Eidolon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 On a side note I loved the way A-D-B made the Ultramarines out to be the evil bad guys at the beginning. Opening fire on the crowd and generally being utterly ruthless. It made a nice change of pace. I never really thought of them as evil bad guys though. They were doing something that left a bad taste in their mouths but they were actually evacuating the populations to safety before destroying the cities. The riots and attacks on the Astartes were what lead to the blood shed. Excessive? Definitely but Space Marines are not a police force and they are just following their "natue" and orders from The Emperor. As an example to illustrate my point, look at the interaction between the 2 Ultramarines in the Landspeeder and the Confessor. Of course, A D-B did brilliantly at portraying the side of the Word Bearers that did make the Ultramarines look bad, but I always try and read between the lines and see as many angles as possible when I pick up a book so I couldn't help seeing it from the other side too. The fact I could easily see both sides view points despite the theme being about one particular side and there is limited information regarding the other side yet I can still gleam information on them shows how well constructed the story is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 I think ADB was trying to get across the cold, machine like efficiency of the 'best' legion is how it should be done, opposed to the warm, culture saving, friendly activities the Word Bearers got up too. Lorgar says 'let there be Gods, believe what you like within reason, keep your old ways and accept us as saviours.' Everyone else says 'just following orders'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 opposed to the warm, culture saving, friendly activities the Word Bearers got up too. Because converting people to the "true faith" is all of the above. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 on this 'why the ultramarines business' the think Guilliman was sent a) because his Legion is the only legion larger than Logar's and :) that Legion got so large because it absorbed the left overs of one of the lost Legions, which we discover the Emperor had destroyed - likely by the ultramarines. here the emperor is sending the signal 'I have killed sons before, I will kill you if you dont ack' right.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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