Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 what i found interesting (and suprising) was russ's (kinda sorta)support of lorgar. 100 pages left. more later. WLK what i found interesting (and suprising) was russ's (kinda sorta)support of lorgar. 100 pages left. more later. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 For those not in the know, Barnes & Noble now has The First Heretic in stock. I scored my copy about two hours ago. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 For those not in the know, Barnes & Noble now has The First Heretic in stock. I scored my copy about two hours ago. :D thats where i got mine on tuesday. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 what i found interesting (and suprising) was russ's (kinda sorta)support of lorgar. Russ fighting the Lion. <_< Russ betraying Magnus. :devil: Well of course Russ would support Lorgar. It is in line with his other interactions with the Primarchs. B) At least he acts consistently as a jerk :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 what i found interesting (and suprising) was russ's (kinda sorta)support of lorgar. Russ fighting the Lion. <_< Russ betraying Magnus. :devil: Well of course Russ would support Lorgar. It is in line with his other interactions with the Primarchs. B) At least he acts consistently as a jerk :P to think, i almost expected a intelligent reply...my bad. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wilhelm Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 to think, i almost expected a intelligent reply...my bad. WLK It was intelligent and, might I add, witty too :devil: I haven't read the book and so have nothing to add with regards to that. But your tail looked like it was curling up and so *yoink* I gave it a straightening. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 to think, i almost expected a intelligent reply...my bad. WLK It was intelligent and, might I add, witty too :devil: I haven't read the book and so have nothing to add with regards to that. But your tail looked like it was curling up and so *yoink* I gave it a straightening. <_< The excuse Russ gave for supporting Lorgar was that he already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third. (page 163) now why i find this so interesting is BECAUSE of the already published material of Russ's interactions with his brothers...i think it might add something to the typical "barbarian berseker" vibe that Russ's haters describe him as. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 now why i find this so interesting is BECAUSE of the already published material of Russ's interactions with his brothers...i think it might add something to the typical "barbarian berseker" vibe that Russ's haters describe him as. It certainly does beg the question: was there another Primarch that Russ actually liked? <_< It's kind of odd, really, I'm halfway through the book and it dawned on me that the closeness between Lorgar and Magnus in this work isn't reflected at all in A Thousand Sons. In that book, there was almost an air of neutrality between them; not so in this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 now why i find this so interesting is BECAUSE of the already published material of Russ's interactions with his brothers...i think it might add something to the typical "barbarian berseker" vibe that Russ's haters describe him as. It certainly does beg the question: was there another Primarch that Russ actually liked? <_< It's kind of odd, really, I'm halfway through the book and it dawned on me that the closeness between Lorgar and Magnus in this work isn't reflected at all in A Thousand Sons. In that book, there was almost an air of neutrality between them; not so in this one. Well, their interaction is told largely from Lorgar's P.o.V., so maybe he imagined closeness where there was none? or his request of magnus cooled their friendship? or ADB is a better author than GMcN? WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO BLOOD - NO FOUL! Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 There is also a 40 year time difference between the two books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO BLOOD - NO FOUL! Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 There is also a 40 year time difference between the two books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 The excuse Russ gave for supporting Lorgar was that he already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third. (page 163) You've also got to remember that the native people of Fernis are quite a superstitious bunch and venerate their own gods. So I think Russ saw what Lorgar was doing and supported that he should have a faith in something, but when it came to making worlds compliant they approached it differently. I also find it interesting that the Emperor was okay to let Lorgar believe that he was a God but then to change his mind. Do people think this is because he had a vision of the future of him being hooked up into the Golden Throne and the whole Imperium being corrupt and decaying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I also find it interesting that the Emperor was okay to let Lorgar believe that he was a God but then to change his mind. Do people think this is because he had a vision of the future of him being hooked up into the Golden Throne and the whole Imperium being corrupt and decaying? It could be construed that the Emperor didn't suspect Lorgar would attempt to propagate the religious aspect of him to every world he brought into compliance and was thusly shocked and offended that Lorgar had taken his Daddy Worship entirely too far, but I much prefer that it's just because the Emperor is a huge d-bag. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inache Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 But that's what doesn't make sense. If Logar had been spreading the good word for 100 years, why stop him then? Why not stop him after the first 20 years after only making one or two worlds compliant? There's got to be some motivation to get him to act at that specific time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Perhaps the cathedrals and templer Lorgar had the population build got more and more elaborate and monumental with time? During his first campaigns he only had them build simple places of worship, but as the Crusade went on and Lorgar got accustomed to it, he had them build bigger and bigger temples, which took more and more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Anybody else get a bit annoyed at the "beloved by all" bit? It was said nearly to the point of parody. Are these people psychically brainwashed automatons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Anybody else get a bit annoyed at the "beloved by all" bit? It was said nearly to the point of parody. Are these people psychically brainwashed automatons? Not really, it was kind of expected given the demagoguery rife within the Word Bearers fluff. I'm more surprised that you're surprised by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Not really, it was kind of expected given the demagoguery rife within the Word Bearers fluff. I'm more surprised that you're surprised by it. So you're saying that this is the Word Bearers sarcastically misremembering what loyalty to the Emperor was like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Not really, it was kind of expected given the demagoguery rife within the Word Bearers fluff. I'm more surprised that you're surprised by it. So you're saying that this is the Word Bearers sarcastically misremembering what loyalty to the Emperor was like? More like offhandedly mocking that the Emperor demands the devotion of a god but refuses to accept the role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I think the Emperor sent Guilliman on purpose; trying to convey "This is how you're supposed to do it" kinda message to Lorgar. This was how I viewd it. I didn't really like Lorgars casual disprespect and contempt for Malcador though I do have one problem though, that I think is only ever addressed once in the book The willingness of the marines to become hideous inhuman monsters (no irony here) in order, to 'save' humanity Lorgar seems to genuinely beleive this, that a pact and worship with the Warp Gods, considering everything he must have witnessed of them human sacrifice, blood rites, hideous creatures coming forth from the ether, his owns sons being killed inside the eye Surely, that doesn't smack of something you'd say 'I want a part of that' He speaks a lot about doing it to save and enlighten humanity, but would one not think packs of raging Deamons are the absolute opposite of Humanity? For me, I think I needed a little more justification for him going into the arms of Chaos 'willingly' Argel Tal did himself I beleive mention, that he felt he had taken on the posession, to be a prophet, he had to bare the pain, so the rest of Humanity didn't...but that, is a close as I felt the book came to 'reasoning' Lorgars/the legions embracing of something that was so utterly inhuman, in the so-called name of humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Surely, that doesn't smack of something you'd say 'I want a part of that' He speaks a lot about doing it to save and enlighten humanity, but would one not think packs of raging Deamons are the absolute opposite of Humanity? For me, I think I needed a little more justification for him going into the arms of Chaos 'willingly' The point being made there, I believe, is that there simply wasn't any other choice. Humanity was going to either embrace Chaos of its own accord as the true gods, or perish as unbelievers who bought the Emperor's "Truth" over what was obvious. To Lorgar, it was literally as simple as that, which is why it didn't take a lot of convincing to get him to go along with it. The gods of the Warp had proven themselves greater than the Emperor and were worthy of worship and devotion; the Emperor had lied, rejected his own divinity, owed Chaos for the capacity to even attempt the Crusade he himself had already forsaken, and was dragging humanity into the talons of alien hordes blindly and into a future that heralded nothing but extinction. Who could view this state of affairs and not accept the Warp as the only salvation left? In Lorgar's mind, humanity was going to have to choose the strength of Chaos of their own accord, or destruction by one foe or another, even if that foe was Chaos itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 owed Chaos for the capacity to even attempt the Crusade he himself had already forsaken, and was dragging humanity into the talons of alien hordes blindly and into a future that heralded nothing but extinction. Those things are almost certainly Chaos lies. There is no evidence the Great Crusade had anything other than genocidal intent towards aliens. There is no evidence the Emperor had forsaken the crusade, he was just taking a break from the front lines. There is no evidence other than the self-serving proclamations of daemons that the Emperor made and broke a pact with Chaos, and even if he did, shouldn't Lorgar see using and discarding them as the right and proper thing to do with aliens? It is the height of hypocrisy to whine that the Emperor is "dragging humanity into the talons of alien hordes" while working to accomplish exactly that yourself (drag humanity into the clutches of Chaos). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Those things are almost certainly Chaos lies. There is no evidence the Great Crusade had anything other than genocidal intent towards aliens. There is no evidence the Emperor had forsaken the crusade, he was just taking a break from the front lines. There is no evidence other than the self-serving proclamations of daemons that the Emperor made and broke a pact with Chaos, and even if he did, shouldn't Lorgar see using and discarding them as the right and proper thing to do with aliens? It is the height of hypocrisy to whine that the Emperor is "dragging humanity into the talons of alien hordes" while working to accomplish exactly that yourself (drag humanity into the clutches of Chaos). From your point of view, probably. From Lorgar's, or anyone else who was there, not so much. One of the best things about 40K is that everything is relative, and who's to say with any definition what is or isn't a lie? The "use and discard" option was what Horus would have done; Lorgar is too much the holy-roller to submit to his god and then betray his angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 From your point of view, probably. How do you figure? "Deliver humanity into the clutches of aliens" isn't exactly an ambiguous statement. It requires no point of view. Either the Emperor did or did not do that. Name one incident where the Emperor commanded troops to sit by and do nothing while aliens attack a human world, or allowed xenos aggression to stand without reply. As for "abandoned the Great Crusade", yes it's true the Emperor stopped personally fighting it. On the other hand, he never commanded it to stop or even slow down appreciably, and the Emperor himself isn't an indispensable linchpin of a military campaign when his personal efforts affect the success of but one out of thousands of fleets. Charging him with abandoning it is a bizarre assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 What about the Astronomicon? Didn't that, during the later stages of the Crusade, need the Emperor to direct it- which was why he only led the crusade during the early stages? There's also "the great work" on Earth- the buried webway gate which the Emperor found and set up (was damaged during Magnus's message to the Emperor). It's currently called The Golden Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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