Greatest Legions of all?

[eaglefists13]

In My prior post I included the pint that the Two greatest Legions were the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.

Before everyone gets onboard to say how there favourite legion is the best and a whole argument spawns from it I would like to clarify and quantify why they are.

 

Now we obviously disclude the two missing Primarchs.

 

Of the remaining 18 we disclude Alpharius/Omegon as his late addition means that 2 years before the heresy erupts fully they are still considered newish.

 

Of the remaining 17 we disclude Konrad Kurze, he is just too mental and bonds with only a couple of Primarchs.

 

Of the remaining 16 we disclude misery guts Perturabo. He was favoured alright but with all the onerous and thankless jobs that need doing but with no reward.

 

Of the remaining 15 we disclude Magnus, although the most Psychic and knowledgable his destiny would never of been other than the Golden Throne. Plus Legion size here counts against them and the fact that they spent more time "learning "than fighting as per creation.

 

Of the remaining 14 we now disclude Lorgar, a lot of Primarchs kept him at distance as his worship was distasteful, plus the amount of victories pre Monarchia for the size of the legion is inept to a degree.

 

Of the remaining 13 we disclude the first of 2 Primarchs who should of died Pre Heresy. Angron. With the use of Psycho Implants and the fact that we was mental completely rules him and his legion out, plus he did kill all his good help!

 

Of the remaining 12 we disclude Mortarion, although good at what they did they were one dimensional and not fashionable, plus he was saved from being killed (to quantify this fulgrim as a child killed Eldar Raiders).

 

So far I have discluded 7 Primarchs leaving 11 more.

You may of noticed that the above is chock full of Traitor Legions, this pans out with the little bit of statement attached and seems logical.

 

Of the remaining 11 we disclude who???, we have little info on the White Scars, Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands bar little snippets and the appearance of The Hands in the Fulgrim Novel.

There is speculation that the legions above barring iron Hands are relatively small and fight smaller battles. Maybe more light will come to surface, so how to choose?

 

Of the remaining 11 we disclude The Salamanders and Vulkan, although they have a great love for humanity and are cool, they dont make much of an appearance in any great named battles and Vulkan Deferred or was ordered to accede to Ferrus at Istvann.

 

Of the remaining 10 we disclude Corax. Same logic as above but as he was used in a campaign to help Horus he gets higher than Vulkan. This could be the other way round as he did post Istvann do the whole create abominations thing.

 

Of the remaining 9 we disclude Ferrus Manus. His legion although posing a grave threat to Horus' plans was somewhat at the mercy of what would of been a smaller legion in the Emperors Children (treachery aside), he got decked twice by Fulgrim even though he was the stronger (the battle between the Lion And Russ is similar in that one was stronger than the other and one was faster than the other) okay I admit that the evil sword does help tremendously but they needed help to defeat the Diasporex so this counts.

 

Of the remaining 8 we need to disclude the White Scars and Jag Khan. Although there defence of the Imperial Palace is legendary when they secured it from traitors and demons, they did at the same time lose it. They were mentioned very little in any fluff although he mustve been found earlier that the Lion. So unlucky there

 

From Here it gets trickier as we have the legions with great victory tallies and proud accomplishments so where to ??

 

We Have left

 

Leman Russ

Rogal Dorn

Roboute Guilliman

Sanguinius

Horus

Lion

Fulgrim

 

For the next one its a choice between Leman Russ and Fulgrim???

 

Of the remaining 7 we disclude Fulgrim. For all his perfectionism that is where his weakness lay, that is why he was targetted by chaos. That aside his legion had to spend time fighting alongside Horus' Luna Wolves for awhile so wouldn't of got the victory tallies (maybe this added to Horus') plus the small legion size wouldn't of helped. Although they are unique in that they wear the Emperors own Heraldry the Crusade is well under way at this time. Plus unlike Sanguinius who embodies physical perfection he has lost his touch with humanity so he falls behind him.

 

Of the remaining 6 we disclude Leman Russ. The wolves went to great lengths to portray themselves as simple barbarians and savages contrary to what they really were, so would never been in favour that much as its not what they wanted. And probably feared as much as loved. If the new novels have any shred of truth regarding sanctioning then this would help them but if the legion or legions was relatively small and lesser then the value of this is not as great plus there is a hint of a suggestion that they did it aided. Now we know that Russ was the only brother to defeat Horus in the cages and did deal Magnus a mortal (ish) blow on Prospero it could only of happened because of the influence of the Silent Sisters and Custodes so this lessens that, as his legion may of perished at the sorcerous hands of the Thousand Sons (this does not bring them up the list though)

 

Of the remaining 5 we disclude Horus. This will be met with derission and scorn but the logic pans out. He was the target of Chaos, The others in the list above (Lion?) would never be tempted and didnt turn to chaos. So he was weaker in the mind.

Like Dorn He was overly vain another weakness. He did seek the approval of his brothers referring to 3 above in the list. he thought that Dorn could defend no matter what (his legion the best in attack against the best in defence). He mused that Sanguinius and not he should be Warmaster.

His tally of victories albeit the greatest was skewed drasmatically by the length of time with The Emperor, The Emperors Children and the Newly discovered Alpharius whom he kept at his side before taking to meet the Emperor. He out of all the Primarch used the others to further his campaigns and won a great many victories due to the help of the Death Guard, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Ultra's and Raven Guard. No other legion had this boon. This bring his victories below the Fists, Dark Angels and Ultras all of whom in varying stories and fluff are noted to have the most Victories apart from The Luna Wolves. He was also the first Primarch found and spent 20 years learning from the Emperor. The whole twenty years !some Primarchs got little time with the Emperor so this counts heavily against him. With all the stuff in his favous he fell the furthest and had the most help. He may of been the charismatic leader but isn't that the same of Luther. So inevitably we disclude him.

 

Of the remaining 4 we disclude noble Sanguinius. His legions tallies never approached that of The Lion so He is below him. Although he has proved his loyalty is a scary hand to hand fighter, can fly and his legion is Noble and loved its the greatest not coolest list so he falls nicely in at 4.

 

Of the remaining 3 we disclude Lion el Johnson. This isn't a surprise his victory tally may be attributed to the Dark Angels being the first legion but his tactical genius is only behind the 2 above. He survived a Death Planet uniquely amongst the Primarch (?) as a child, knocked out Russ after a toe to toe and could read through Horus'plans at a glance. The first, his tactical genius and his victories place him about right at 3.

 

Of the remaining 2 we disclude Rogal Dorn. Even though as my user name alludes i'm a Loyal Imperial Fist. This was and is the hardest on the list and im inclined to put it as a tie as both Primarch embody greatness. But that would be pointless to have a tie so Dorns vanity, his fight with Kurze (although this may not be black and white as appears) and the subsequent actions after the Heresy (Iron Cage and almost Civil War) leave him behind Guilliman but still at 2. He was chosen by the Emperor to lead the loyalists and did have a great bond with the emperor like Guilliman (however the Emperor did chose Horus as his general so his decision making is not the greatest) he did fortify the palace which held until it needed to.

Why it was so close was that unique amongst the Primarch he found the Emperor, at the vanguard of a fleet in a massive ship the Phalanx. Lets compare this quickly to a couple of others. Angron saved from destrcution, being teleported of planet, Moratarion the emperor blade coming between him and his inevitable death, Khan riding a horse! Sanguinius a backward moon and Russ getting bladdered in a hall.. Whereas it says the Primarchs rose to prominent positions and dominated their environments (barring Angron and Mortarion) i think this proves that some rose higher, proving their greatness. This without the aid of the Emperor and this sets aside Dorn and Guilliman.

 

 

That leaves the Primarch everyone loves to hate (barring Erebus the Ultra's and Guilliman seem to have the most detractors) ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN

This in real life is kind of like that team only the fans of like....... Man Utd. As fans of other teams we do not like Utd one bit but will if begrudgingly admit they are the best with the most individual fans.

Now after the qualifying facts for Rogal Dorn would appear to put him at the number one his faults in such a close situation drop him one place.

Guilliman is the King Of an Empire, A system not just a planet when re-united with the emperor which astounds him. I know that Dorn is too. Guilliman did kill a Primarch in battle like Fulgrim did, dorn got somewhat beaten up by one.

The actions of Guilliman in defeating the sneaky attack by the Word Bearers and the Fact that they left veritable paradises compared to other Primarchs and model compliances with the minimum of destruction means they are the top dogs. They have a massive Victory tally and as we have seen the others are skewed slightly. The more marines thing is negated as that is directlt related to Guilliman abilities as a military ruler. They did exactly what they were created to do and did it the best. And saved humanity post Heresy, and for that matter saved the Fists so number one is fair.

 

RECAP

 

1. Roboute Guilliman

2. Rogal Dorn

3. The Lion

4. Sanguinius

5. Horus

6. Leman Russ

7. Fulgrim

8. The Khan

9. Ferrus Manus

10. Corax

11. Vulkan

12. Mortarion

13. Angron

14. Lorgar

15. Magnus the Red

16. Perturabo

17. Konrad Kurze

18. Alpharius

 

thank you for bearing through this all it is a long post, and I know you will all disagree and say that Horus was greatest cos the books say so but that is your right and your opinion and your welcome to it.

Insults and criticism welcome

[BassWave]

So brothers, (activates power axe) who wants to strike him down first? :P Kidding of course. You do make some valid points although you did seem to take Horus out of the running pretty quickly. I thought the reason chaos targeted him was because he was the greatest and because people looked up to him. If he fell, many others would follow him. Remember that Horus wasn't asked to join chaos freely, he was poisoned and his mind was clouded. The other primarchs were either just asked to join, lied to, or possessed.

 

I would also like to add that the fact that Guilliman even killed Alpharius is hotly disputed.

 

Honestly I don't think its possible to make an in depth discussion over this topic with so little fluff written on so many of the primarchs.

[calgar101]

Pretty much agree with most of what you say. Although Sanguinius beat Horus in a duel too If I remember rightly.

[Gree]

I dislike the idea of ''bestest Legion ever'' I have my favorites and the legions I dislike. but I don't think any one Legion is better than any other.

[Bewlay]

Doesn't really answer which is the greatest Legion.

Just states which Primarch did the most, and who did it the most civil.

 

You need to define what you mena by 'Greatest' do you mean who had the most victories, who killed the most, who lost the less, who's tactics proved most useful? All of those ideas could be incorperated wihin the word 'greatest'.

 

I always saw Alpharus/Omegon as the greatest, firstly they used tactics that were so complicated that it was almost impossible to counter and they were the most inderpendant of all the Legions, meaning they could home their unique skill

[Codicier Lucion]

No offence, but I really don't see the point behind this. This categorising is heavily bias towards certain Primarchs with certain abilities and seems to outright ignore many of the capabilities of others. Most of your points and conclusions also don't seem to make that much sense.

 

You write off two of them for only being recently discovered and being 'too mental', neither point really answers why they are the worst of the bunch. You also outright ignore many of Magnus' fortes, state that he didn't do enough fighting, then later on praise Guilliman for being a king and running his own empire.

 

So what if Guilliman made an empire, every other legion made their reputation by demolishing them.

[douglas9521]

Im with gree on this.Cant say who is the greatest legion anymore than you can pick the best fighting unit in this world.Its always use the right tool for the job.And some jobs are trickier than others so take longer.Plus your top four are the big boys as far as fluff go so that'll certainly help in making them look bigger,bolder,better etc.Plus if you go fluff wise you'd have to say the luna wolves and horus, the emperor chose them,so did chaos.Neither of them picked the rest.But as gree says you cant pick the greatest legion IMO

[Reldn]

So what if Guilliman made an empire, every other legion made their reputation by demolishing them.

 

Because Roboute and his Ultramarines are the greatest at everything and better than all other legions combined bar none. :rolleyes:

[Necris]

I have to point out that in Horus' own words

 

when asked by Petronella

 

"You were made warmaster because you were the most worthy sir."

 

He replies

 

"No, I was not, I was simply the one who most embodied the Emperor's need at that time."

 

and the later he says

 

"Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory and the wisdom to rule once victory is won, For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's Soul in his blood, Each of us carries part of our father within us whether it its his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all, it should have been his..."

 

It is a well known fact that Sanguinius was one of the Emperor's favoured his entire legion acted as the Emperor's honour guard. He was also regarded as one of the greatest warriors amongst the Primarchs known to be the equal if not the better of Horus, Angron in battle and as wise as and skilled in war as Dorn or Guilliman, and as dedicated the Lion or Russ.

 

So I'd argue that Sanguinius should sit higher, Lion was full of arrogant pride at being the first, Sanguinius possessed humility and was humble enough not to challenge the edicts of the Emperor or the Orders of Horus unlike the Lion who always thought it was his right to be warmaster and that Horus had stolen the title.

 

Likewise you mark Dorn and Guilliman above the others because they ruled empires, that is a matter of circumstance if we look at the lives before the Emperor

 

1 Lion - Death World

2 Fulgrim - Mining World

3 Perturabo - Civilised World

4 Jaghatai Khan - Feral World

5 Leman Russ - Feral / Death World

6 Rogal Dorn - Ice / Hive World (Technologically Advanced - Built Phalanx for Dorn)

7 Konrad Curze - Civilized / Night World

8 Sanguinius - Feral / Death World

9 Ferrus Manus - Mining World

10 Angron - Feudal World

11 Roboute Guilliman - Civilised World (Technologically Advanced system)

12 Mortarion - Feral World

13 Magnus the Red - Civilised World

14 Horus - Barren World

15 Lorgar - Feudal World

16 Vulkan - Death World

17 Corax - Prison World

18 Alpharius - Unknown (Alpharius also led a fleet of ships against Horus' Flag ship inflicting damage to the Vengeful Spirit and battling his way to Horus' bridge)

 

 

If you look at the worlds where the Primachs came from you can see that Dorn and Guilliman had an advantage over some of their brothers

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Horus was still named Warmaster above them all. Number one is still number one.

 

And no one beat Horus in a duel, except the Emperor. :sweat:

[Brother Styphus]

Because Roboute and his Ultramarines are the greatest at everything and better than all other legions combined bar none. :sweat:

 

 

You get out of here you sneaky redshirt! Your username isn't fooling anyone :)

[Aegnor]

If we must play this game, I'd say Horus and Guilliman. Bearing in mind that doing so is like pointing out Mt. Everest is the tallest Himalya. It's true, but doesnt change the fact the other Himalyas are bloody big mountains as well.

 

It's made pretty explicit that through the Great Crusade, it was Horus and his Lunar Wolves who accomplished the most. Marines from other legions are genuinely awed or excited to fight alongside them. He was pretty clearly first among equals for mine. Even his benediction that it should have been Sanguinas needs to be considered in the context it was made - he had been manipulated by Chaos to feel he was failing (with the pressures being piled on him, the revolt on Davin and the failure with the interex - the last two directly caused by Erebus). He thought he was dying having failed to achieve his mission. It doesn't follow that he was necessarily correct in his assessment.

 

Other than that, Guilliman succeeded the best at what the mission of the Primarchs was and was pivotal in keeping the Imperium together. Others lost their way, temporarily or permanently, he did what HAD to be done.

[Captain Tezdal]

Greatest Legion(primarch? Your Opening post seems to go off course from the title) at what? Each legion was good at certain things, but if were just going by victories it's obviously Horus and his legion...plus the Big E choose him as Warmaster to command the others...seems pretty great to me.

[Candleshoes]

You throw objectivity out the window for half your list, and then try to apply it to the other half. You also have gotten several of your simple facts wrong in the glazed over Primarch section that is a rampant rehash of stereotypes.

 

"Greatest" is a definition that you also do not take the time to explain. You imply it means several different, but specific things, but again, do not hold all the legion accountable to the same standards.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I agree; definition and context is important to bear in mind when crowning a title of "Greatest" on anything.

 

There are plenty of angles to look at the Legions and determine different "greatest" winners amongst them, but I believe the OP was refering to the "Imperial truth" and Emperor's classification of the term.

 

Assuming I am correct in that angle, then I would believe the greatest Legions as considered by the Imperial authorities and the Emperor would be the Legions that adhere to the ideals and intent of both.

 

That doesn't mean the most couragous, fierce or even strategically sound, but the Legions that fight and uphold the purpose of the Crusade and who retain their humility and humanity.

 

A difficult question to answer, but it seems the most applicable of the Legions are (again, from what we know about them combined with the assumption the character of the Primarch has some impact on the Legion also);

 

Ultramarines

Imperial Fists

Lunar Wolves

 

And arguably there are others, but there are potential faults. Blood Angels are supposed to be fierce warriors but I would put them in the list above, as they almost certainly reflect Sanguinius' idealist personality.

 

But then even my list is a tad subjective, no matter how much I try to keep an unbiased view in deciding which.

[Kizzdougs]

How about the Emperor's Children? i think it is mentioned in 'Fulgrim' or 'Horus Rising' that Horus described them as the very image and definition of what it is to be an Astartes. The Emperor seemed to agree. He was so pleased by Fulgrim's enthusiastic embrace of his vision for the Imperium and pursuit of human perfection that he gave the legion his personal mark to were upon their armour. A singular honour.

 

The only reason Fulgrim didn't reach the huge victory tallies of his more 'successful' brothers can be attributed to the small size of his legion. The relatively small size of his legion was the direct result of a "terrible accident" durring it's creation. Fulgrim also pushed his legion harder, perhaps, than any of his brothers pushed theirs. For example he demanded the conquest of Laern be completed in a period of time thought impossible by the Imperial tacticians of the fleet. Given the same period of time and man power, surely Fulgrim would have equaled the victory tallies of his more prolific brothers.

He also planned for the future and had a vision for the Imperium once the Great Crusade was completed (something that terrified many of his brothers and their legions).

 

I know this is all very well known info but i just thought i would put it out there.

In my mind The III Legion deserves to be placed higher than seventh in eaglefists13's list of legions.

[Captain Idaho]

I did consider them too, but they are a tad on the arrogant side (for Astartes, who are all a bit that way!) which meant they perhaps would not quite work as "efficiently" with the other Imperial institutions...

[Corsair]

No offence, but your list seems kind of illogical, and you seem to not have a firm grasp of your concept.

 

Are we talking greatest Legion/Primarch as a unit or individually? Do Legion victories count for more than personal prowess? Is success in a limited amount of time more or less impressive than a string of longterm victories?

 

If personal power is a defining criteria, then realistically Magnus and the Thousand Sons should be the victor. With his power, he could crush any of the other Primarchs in a one on one battle. Hell, he could probably demolish their Legions as well, especially with the aid of his boys. Mind you, other Primarchs are also renowned for their fighting ability without the aid of magic tricks; hell, Curze smacked down Dorn and has been shown scaring off another Primarch to boot. Plus, ANGRON SMASH!!!

 

If it comes down to pure volume of victories, then Horus, the Lion, or Big Daddy G would have to be contenders. Now the Ultras obviously accomplished a lot, but Guilliman isn't renowned for his personal fighting abilities when compared to most other Primarchs. Unless I am mistaken, his biggest personal fluff victory comes against someone who may or may not have been Alpharius, in a report the Ultras themselves dispute. Plus he has more marines than anyone else. Lion'el was a renowned warrior and tactician, but couldn't keep half his Legion under control, not to mention the other rumours. Horus won the most victories, was named Warmaster, and managed to unite the majority of his often childish brothers in the process. He is lauded as the greatest overall, and it is hard to argue.

 

But then what about the Alpha Legion, who it appears may have been the deciding factor (one way or another) for the entire Heresy. Combine that with their tactical genius and incredible organisation, and maybe they are in the running?

 

Hell, lets get even more esoteric. The Word Bearers and Lorgar brought about the events that destroyed the Great Crusade and ruined the Imperium without firing a shot. In terms of accomplishment, it's hard to argue against them as the greatest.

 

Honestly, a good argument could be made for just about any of them, whether through reasoned facts from the fluff or pure fanboyism. Lists like this can be fun, but ultimately your list uses a methodology as biased as the guy saying 'I love the Emperor's Children because they are metal as :cuss'

[Kizzdougs]

Too true Idaho. Arrogance is definitely their greatest failing (although it seems to be something that developed in the legion towards the end of the Great Crusade, after Laern, ie. once the coruption of the legion had begun).

The Emperor's Children were always a particularly proud legion although certain members seem to be fairly grounded characters, ie. Lord commander Vespasian.

 

I think Fulgrim's Political 'know how' and cunning would have been able to sooth over most inter legionary disagreements. He was chosen by the council of Terra to bring the war master back into line after his excesses. He also seemed to have good relationships with Dorn, Ferrus, Magnus, Sanguinius, Russ and even Kurze.

 

However having said that my choice for warmaster would have been Guilliman (in hind sight of course. Horus seemed a pretty good choice at the time no doubt).

[Captain Idaho]

No offence, but your list seems kind of illogical, and you seem to not have a firm grasp of your concept.

 

Are we talking greatest Legion/Primarch as a unit or individually? Do Legion victories count for more than personal prowess? Is success in a limited amount of time more or less impressive than a string of longterm victories?

 

Do you mean me?

 

I assume not, just trying to make sure I'm on the right page!

 

As for Fulgrim, yes I rate him alot, but his Legion were not quite up to scratch. Some were damn right arrogant before their corruption, including those in high positions.

 

But I rate them highly over all, especially before their corruption. As a Legion that embodies the Imperial way, I would put them after the Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Lunar Wolves.

[Corsair]

No offence, but your list seems kind of illogical, and you seem to not have a firm grasp of your concept.

 

Are we talking greatest Legion/Primarch as a unit or individually? Do Legion victories count for more than personal prowess? Is success in a limited amount of time more or less impressive than a string of longterm victories?

 

Do you mean me?

 

I assume not, just trying to make sure I'm on the right page!

 

As for Fulgrim, yes I rate him alot, but his Legion were not quite up to scratch. Some were damn right arrogant before their corruption, including those in high positions.

 

But I rate them highly over all, especially before their corruption. As a Legion that embodies the Imperial way, I would put them after the Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Lunar Wolves.

 

 

No sorry, directed at the OP.

[Billuriye]

If personal power is a defining criteria, then realistically Magnus and the Thousand Sons should be the victor. With his power, he could crush any of the other Primarchs in a one on one battle.

 

Then why did Magnus lose against Leman ?

[Corsair]

If personal power is a defining criteria, then realistically Magnus and the Thousand Sons should be the victor. With his power, he could crush any of the other Primarchs in a one on one battle.

 

Then why did Magnus lose against Leman ?

 

Look at the context of the battle and what was happening behind the scenes, that was hardly your typical one on one battle.

 

Magnus with his full powers unimpeded would be unstoppable to anyone bar the Emperor, simply because none of the Primarchs are psykers at his level, and none of them are nulls.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I dislike the idea of ''bestest Legion ever'' I have my favorites and the legions I dislike. but I don't think any one Legion is better than any other.

 

Agreed.

[Billuriye]

Sure Magnus' morale and mentality were shattered but other than that it was typical 1vs1.