Legatus Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 And I am genuinely curious what counts as 'the wild' on Macragge. Mainly harsh mountain terrain. And I don't think the culture of Macragge is worse than a world of constant tectonic movement where half of the world is inhospitable ice land and the other is inhospitable lava seas, where the primitive tribes fight and raid each other on top of these natural desasters. :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 And I am genuinely curious what counts as 'the wild' on Macragge. Mainly harsh mountain terrain. So on a sunny weekend Mr Macragge Smith and his wife and kids go on a trip to the mountains to admire the scenery, do some skiing and leave little Timmy behind. :) Or to spare himself the gas bill Mr Smith drops little Timmy out of the plane during the next business trip B) See? It doesn't work. It cannot work on a well-developed world without food shortages. It wouldn't work even if there were some sort of destitute underclass since those people would just pack the kid into a dumpster and leave, not waste their time and money on a trip to the 'harsh mountain terrain' that's probably not too close to where they live. And as far as I know, there is no underclass on Macragge. Anyway, that 'harsh mountain terrain' is just begging to be used somewhere in a piece of fluff as a training site for the Ultras or other Macraggian forces. That would make sense, and inject some character and detail into the setting and the locals. And it'd probably be possible to base this on some historical detail that's genuinely Spartan and interesting - as opposed to the leaving weaklings to die - thing. And I don't think the culture of Macragge is worse than a world of constant tectonic movement where half of the world is inhospitable ice land and the other is inhospitable lava seas, where the primitive tribes fight and raid each other on top of these natural desasters. :huh: No idea what you are responding to, tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 See? It doesn't work. It cannot work on a well-developed world without food shortages. It wouldn't work even if there were some sort of destitute underclass since those people would just pack the kid into a dumpster and leave, not waste their time and money on a trip to the 'harsh mountain terrain' that's probably not too close to where they live. And as far as I know, there is no underclass on Macragge. Anyway, that 'harsh mountain terrain' is just begging to be used somewhere in a piece of fluff as a training site for the Ultras or other Macraggian forces. That would make sense, and inject some character and detail into the setting and the locals. And it'd probably be possible to base this on some historical detail that's genuinely Spartan and interesting - as opposed to the leaving weaklings to die - thing. "Macragge itself is mostly bleak and rocky, with more than three quarters of its land mass formed from mountainous upland almost entirely devoid of life. The people of Macragge do not live in this inhospitable region, but the fortress of the Ultramarines is built here upon a craggy peak surrounded by impenetrable mountains." 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 14 "The state determined whether children, both male and female, were strong when they were born and weakling infants were left on the mountains to perish." Index Astartes Ultramarines No idea what you are responding to, tbh. You seemed to have issues with the way the Macragge society was written and modeled after some dark age cultures form our past. So I thought I should point out that there are far more freakish societies and Imperial worlds described in the 40K background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 "Macragge itself is mostly bleak and rocky, with more than three quarters of its land mass formed from mountainous upland almost entirely devoid of life. The people of Macragge do not live in this inhospitable region, but the fortress of the Ultramarines is built here upon a craggy peak surrounded by impenetrable mountains."5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 14 This needs developing upon. Mountain warfare could be fascinating "The state determined whether children, both male and female, were strong when they were born and weakling infants were left on the mountains to perish."Index Astartes Ultramarines So it's the state that's irrational (why wait until birth with the decision) and wasteful (see previous posts and it must cost money to dump the kids on the mountains) Figures. But I guess GW can't have the civilisation of its poster boy chapter perform state-sponsored abortions, even though it on a planet like Macragge it would make far more sense than the way they get rid of unwanted kids now. You seemed to have issues with the way the Macragge society was written and modeled after some dark age cultures form our past. So I thought I should point out that there are far more freakish societies and Imperial worlds described in the 40K background. Sparta and Rome are hardly dark age cultures - anyway, I have no issues with the brutality of 40k cultures, but I do hate it when they are inconsistent and otherwise make very little sense (ok, I like Fenris, but that's because it's just plain hilarious). But that's all off topic. Speaking of things making little sense - the Ultras did not make it to the Siege of Terra and yet they're supposed to be the greatest legion. Yeah, they had a good reason for their absence and their other achievements are undeniable, but fighting alongside the Emperor himself in what was the battle of battles... you can't be an Imperial warrior and ask for any more than this. And yet the White Scars did just that, and no one cares. :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Speaking of things making little sense - the Ultras did not make it to the Siege of Terra and yet they're supposed to be the greatest legion. Yeah, they had a good reason for their absence and their other achievements are undeniable, but fighting alongside the Emperor himself in what was the battle of battles... you can't be an Imperial warrior and ask for any more than this. Horus had planned his coup so that he would reach terra without too many loyalist Legions against him. He had orchestrated disruptions and diversions for several of the loyalist Legions, but in the end it was still not enough to secure enough time for his forces to breach the defenses of the Imperial Palace. But with that in mind it was not much of an accomplishment to have fought in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Those three Legions just so happened to be close enough to Terra to be there before Horus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Or smart/capable enough not to be fooled by Horus into wasting their time elsewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Or smart/capable enough not to be fooled by Horus into wasting their time elsewhere? Anyone would be ''fooled'' in that position, as oyu put it. Horus was Warmaster, the favoured son of the Emperor. Nobody had any reason to think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Dorn and Sanguinius are two of the Primarchs who are closest to Horus and trusted him with their lives.. It was only by chance they were in the vicinity of Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Or smart/capable enough not to be fooled by Horus into wasting their time elsewhere? as much as i dont want to agree with the "ultra army of B&C" :rolleyes: , on this point i have to. Horus duped EVERYBODY. when guilliman and corax separately came to the Emperor warning of Mortarion's loyalty, he dismissed them as loyalty to Horus was loyalty to him. (death guard index astartes) WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Speaking of things making little sense - the Ultras did not make it to the Siege of Terra and yet they're supposed to be the greatest legion. Yeah, they had a good reason for their absence and their other achievements are undeniable, but fighting alongside the Emperor himself in what was the battle of battles... you can't be an Imperial warrior and ask for any more than this. Horus had planned his coup so that he would reach terra without too many loyalist Legions against him. He had orchestrated disruptions and diversions for several of the loyalist Legions, but in the end it was still not enough to secure enough time for his forces to breach the defenses of the Imperial Palace. But with that in mind it was not much of an accomplishment to have fought in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Those three Legions just so happened to be close enough to Terra to be there before Horus. You're not thinking like an imperial. Sure, these three legions just happened to be nearby, but that doesn't change anything. They were there. And in an empire that's basically held together by the faith in its ruler, fighting alongside that ruler must be something unparallelled. And if GW states or implies somewhere that it isn't - well, that's just a further example illustrating my original point: internally inconsistent writing, therefore bad writing. So, "in-universe" it would be whoever has fought alongside the Emperor that's the top dog. Now I guess all legions have, at some point - but only those three were there alongside Him in the mother of all battles, the turning point. "Out-universe" the Ultras have a good shot at the title of greatest, for the long-term effect of their actions. That said, for me the greatest is the one ready and able to take on the most challenging - not necessarily the most glorious - jobs. Funnily enough, the first name that pops into my mind here is the Iron Warriors, with Death Guard in close second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 A moron isn't smarter just because he stands next to a genius. Granted, the Legions/Primarchs weren't "morons", but the point of the analogy is clear: the "fighting with the Emperor" argument is inherently false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Speaking of things making little sense - the Ultras did not make it to the Siege of Terra and yet they're supposed to be the greatest legion. Yeah, they had a good reason for their absence and their other achievements are undeniable, but fighting alongside the Emperor himself in what was the battle of battles... you can't be an Imperial warrior and ask for any more than this. Horus had planned his coup so that he would reach terra without too many loyalist Legions against him. He had orchestrated disruptions and diversions for several of the loyalist Legions, but in the end it was still not enough to secure enough time for his forces to breach the defenses of the Imperial Palace. But with that in mind it was not much of an accomplishment to have fought in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Those three Legions just so happened to be close enough to Terra to be there before Horus. You're not thinking like an imperial. Sure, these three legions just happened to be nearby, but that doesn't change anything. They were there. And in an empire that's basically held together by the faith in its ruler, fighting alongside that ruler must be something unparallelled. Sort of. But thinking like an Imperial (especially a Terran) also comes with its share of bias. In-universe, the Astartes aren't exactly beloved by the Imperium's population. Necessary, yes. Lionized, absolutely. Trusted and adored, no. Fighting alongside the Emperor in that hour of need was enough to make the Astartes pretty much banned from setting foot on Terra, with a few rare exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But with that in mind it was not much of an accomplishment to have fought in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Those three Legions just so happened to be close enough to Terra to be there before Horus. You're not thinking like an imperial. Sure, these three legions just happened to be nearby, but that doesn't change anything. They were there. And in an empire that's basically held together by the faith in its ruler, fighting alongside that ruler must be something unparallelled. What I meant was that it was an honour to fight in the defense of Terra, not an accomplishment. As far as popularity in the view of Imperial citizens go, Terrans do not hold Space Marines in very high regard, mainly due to the actions of the Emperor's Children during the battle for Terra. But the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels and the White Scars are still praised for their participation in that battle, and rightfully so. However, during the Scouring it was the Ultramarines that secured peace in the crumbling Imperium, accounting for more than half of the active Astartes at that time, and fighting almost everywhere in the Imperium. As the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines puts it (p. 13): "few were the systems where their heroism went unnoticed." On almost every world in the Imperium there will be ancient tales about how back on Terra, some distant world unknown to all, but the cradle of mankind, the Imperial Fists fought at the side of the Emperor. But also on most worlds there will be ancient tales about how the Ultramarines defended this very world from alien marauders or chaos invaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 World Eaters, Luna Wolves. Ultras were (and are) just pretty guys. Space Wolves were great too, but they got trolled by Horus so they're not in the top. Ultramarines are, amongst the loyal legiones, one of the less greatest, because almost any other loyal legion surpasses them in almost everything but maybe logistic, but let's leave the Ultravanillas for the last ones. Blood Angels were one of the greatest too, also were the Imperial Fists. White Scars instead, were not. Just rabid wannabe easy riders B) So, the greatest, for me without further explanation are: World Eaters Luna Wolves Blood Angels Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors - They share the awesomeness! Dark Angels The Ultras, well they're just at the bottom of the list, because they're evil, unremarkable, space marines. Also Guilliman was a bully, molesting his brothers to make it swallow his Codex by force, overcoming the rude dude, because -due they're lack of faghts during the heresy (how suspicious) and the scourging- they were the largest legion, and managed to make his geneseed almost mandatory to found a new chapter. Nothing of that is great, just dirty, there is no honor in this, nor glory, just greed. Shame on you, Guilliman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'd imagine much of the citizenary of the Imperium (not counting Terrans in this instance, who have had a mixed experience with Astartes to say the least) think of Space Marines the same way Christians and Jews thought of God's angels in the old and new testament. They were fearful of Angels, they didn't hate them but they weren't generally too happy to see them unless being saved by them. The Space Marines are a myth to many Imperial citizens, little more than a story of the might of the Imperium. To actually witness an assault from them or confront one would be terrifying to even trained soldiers. Your own limitations are extenuated by the capabilities of the Astartes you are witnessing. This would be quite unnerving. In the religous Imperium I can't see there being much adoration aimed at Space Marines except in minority cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Ultras were (and are) just pretty guys. (...) Ultramarines are, amongst the loyal legiones, one of the less greatest, because almost any other loyal legion surpasses them in almost everything but maybe logistic, but let's leave the Ultravanillas for the last ones. (...) The Ultras, well they're just at the bottom of the list, because they're evil, unremarkable, space marines. Also Guilliman was a bully, molesting his brothers to make it swallow his Codex by force, overcoming the rude dude, because -due they're lack of faghts during the heresy (how suspicious) and the scourging- they were the largest legion, and managed to make his geneseed almost mandatory to found a new chapter. Nothing of that is great, just dirty, there is no honor in this, nor glory, just greed. Shame on you, Guilliman! Wow, that was not just biased rambling, that was completely non-canonical. You seem to get your information from some fan fiction rather than from GW source books. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 A moron isn't smarter just because he stands next to a genius. Granted, the Legions/Primarchs weren't "morons", but the point of the analogy is clear: the "fighting with the Emperor" argument is inherently false. Hardly. Of course, it's unlikely that they got extra 'skill points' because of fighting alongside the Emperor. (Though who knows, His presence or closeness may well have motivated them to constantly giving it 101%, to performing feats even they never suspected themselves capable of. And heck, it's not Einstein or Hawking we're talking about here, it is the freaking Emperor of Mankind, if anyone's 'genius' is enough to give the 'morons' a few extra 'IQ points', it's His). But they did get to do something every loyal SM would dream of - maybe 'dream' is not the best word, but anyway. Captain Idaho's chosen imagery fits well here. Believers often fear God's angels, but that's also because they are so superior to people it hurts to even think about. And the BAs, the Fists and the Scars were not only God's angels; they were God's angels fighting alongside God Himself, and fighting against Satan and his angels to boot. They were warriors among warriors who fought the battle of battles alongside the greatest leader in the past, present and future. And people thinking about it later will conclude that the 'greatest leader' must have always been accompanied by the 'greatest men'. They won't be 100% correct - but that's just how most people's minds work. Greatness attracts greatness, maybe even creates more greatness. Of course all of this will make people's heads spin or even inspire horror among them. But so what? We're talking about greatness here, not friendliness or general popularity. And if someone from a planet liberated by the Ultras ever decides to learn something more about the Emperor - you know, the guy the mythical Ultras kept talking about and said they were mere servants of (gulp) - he will sooner or later learn of the Siege of Terra and the SMs that fought there. SMs that were like the Ultras, yet unlike them they accompanied their Leader. That will make his imagination explode. Either that, or the Inquistion will make his head explode earlier for asking too many questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The OP's method of arriving at the 'greatest' legion is so flawed and arbitrary I am absolutely astonished that it has managed to provoke this much comment. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Of course all of this will make people's heads spin or even inspire horror among them. But so what? We're talking about greatness here, not friendliness or general popularity. And if someone from a planet liberated by the Ultras ever decides to learn something more about the Emperor - you know, the guy the mythical Ultras kept talking about and said they were mere servants of (gulp) - he will sooner or later learn of the Siege of Terra and the SMs that fought there. SMs that were like the Ultras, yet unlike them they accompanied their Leader. That will make his imagination explode. Someone privileged enought to even learn about the battle for Terra will most likely also learn that it was the timely arrival of the Space Wolves, the Dark Angels and the Ultramarines that secured victory for the loyal forces. :( Sort of like the cavalry swooping in and saving the day. They will read about how Legions A, B and C held the palace against the invaders, and then the Legions X, Y and Z appeared and the loyalists finally managed to drive away the traitors. They might also learn that the arriving loyalist Legions X and Z had each defeated a traitor Legion prior to their arrival, and that the Legions Y and Z were only so late because they had come from the farthest reaches of Imperial space where they had been campaigning. I don't think it will quite be as simple as "Legions A, B and C just so happened to have been close, so they are the greatest". And then it is not like everything went back to normal after the siege of the Imperial palace was over. The Imperium was almost going down at that time, and what followed were several years of strife to secure the Imperium and to banish the traitors into the Eye of Terror. The battle for the Imperial Palace was crucial, but it was not the be all, end all defining moment by which all Legions are evaluated. There were 200 years of the Great Crusade, building up the Imperium, then followed a few years of civil war, where most Legions distinguished themselves in some way, culminating in the Battle for Terra, then followed several years of not letting the Imperium fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The OP's method of arriving at the 'greatest' legion is so flawed and arbitrary I am absolutely astonished that it has managed to provoke this much comment. :( Any discussion of greatest legion/chapter will get discussion. It can be a fun discussion sometimes. Its impossible to get people to ages on the greatest. We all have our own criteria, and many arguments can be made in favor of lots of different legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The OP's method of arriving at the 'greatest' legion is so flawed and arbitrary I am absolutely astonished that it has managed to provoke this much comment. :( Any discussion of greatest legion/chapter will get discussion. It can be a fun discussion sometimes. Its impossible to get people to ages on the greatest. We all have our own criteria, and many arguments can be made in favor of lots of different legions. Agreed. I still have a huge problem with any 'system' that arrives at a result purely through the order in which the subjects are considered. If the OP had looked at his two 'Greatest' earlier on he could have discarded them and arrived at an entirely different conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 "Someone privileged enough to even learn about the Battle for Terra" Some sort of vague awareness of the battle must exist, even if it comes down to "Our Lord, Emperor of Mankind defeated some monstrous evil that would destroy us all". And how a lack of knowledge of the battle can be reconciled with the cult of Sanguinus I have no idea. Oh, and BTW, it would take someone REALLY privileged to state that it was the "timely arrival of the SWs, the DAs and the Ultras that secured victory for the loyal forces" instead of "Our Lord crushed the forces of evil." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The glory of fighting at the Siege isn't the fact that they were present. Its the fact that 3 Imperial Legions, one of which had just suffered severe losses at Signus Prime, held off nine traitor Legions. NINE. That is where the glory comes from. The Ultramarines didn't get a chance to prove themselves like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The glory of fighting at the Siege isn't the fact that they were present. Its the fact that 3 Imperial Legions, one of which had just suffered severe losses at Signus Prime, held off nine traitor Legions. NINE. That is where the glory comes from. The Ultramarines didn't get a chance to prove themselves like that. Nine? Sons of Horus Death Guard World Eaters Iron Warriors (didn't they bug out after breaching the wall of the palace anyway?) some Word Bearers some Thousand Sons err, that's it, I think? No Alpha Legion No Night Lords No Emperor's Children (off doing "something else") But then to this we'd have to add an infinity of demons, so I kinda agree with your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Alpha Legion were likely present. But being Alpha Legion you never know. Emperor's Children were most definitely at Terra. They were chewing through the population. Night Lord's were there. Just ask A D-B. I dont care if you agree or not, the fact of the matter remains that just being at Terra isn't a prerequisite for greatness. Holding off chaos is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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