Visitor13 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Alpha Legion were likely present. But being Alpha Legion you never know. Why did I know you'd say this? Emperor's Children were most definitely at Terra. They were chewing through the population. Yeah, like I said, doing "something else". Chewing through the population instead of breaking their teeth on the SMs. Night Lord's were there. Just ask A D-B. How many? And was the Nighthaunter there? I dont care if you agree or not, the fact of the matter remains that just being at Terra isn't a prerequisite for greatness. Fighting on Terra under direct command of the Emperor will make people see your actions as great, if only by association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Night Haunter may have been dead. I'm waiting for A D-B to finish his Soul Hunter stories, Im sure it'll be in there. And the Alpha Legion is a wild card, who cares about them. Its like Chinese E-warfare specialist. They are everywhere in everything, but they are force multipliers not conquerors. Fighting on Terra under direct command of the Emperor will make people see your actions as great, if only by association. There is irony in this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Fighting on Terra under direct command of the Emperor will make people see your actions as great, if only by association. There is irony in this statement. To elaborate - a detachment of the defending forces may have died in a less than glorious way even before the actual fighting began, say crushed by a piece of debris from a building. But few will care (and few will learn of this in the first place ) - they will still be regarded as heroic, for where they were and under whose command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But the Ultramarines fighting through the equivalent of 40K's Pearl Harbor/Battle for Britain/911/Ardennes Offensive isn't heroic at all? Calth was comparable to Istvaan in intensity, why is that unimpressive? The Siege is by far my favorite battle, but Calth is in the top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But the Ultramarines fighting through the equivalent of 40K's Pearl Harbor/Battle for Britain/911/Ardennes Offensive isn't heroic at all? Calth was comparable to Istvaan in intensity, why is that unimpressive? The Siege is by far my favorite battle, but Calth is in the top 5. Do not put words in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 World Eaters, Luna Wolves. Ultras were (and are) just pretty guys. Space Wolves were great too, but they got trolled by Horus so they're not in the top. Ultramarines are, amongst the loyal legiones, one of the less greatest, because almost any other loyal legion surpasses them in almost everything but maybe logistic, but let's leave the Ultravanillas for the last ones. How did every other loyal legion surpass them in everything? I was not aware that the White Scars surpassed the Ultramarines in ship boarding actions, or the Fists surpassed them in fast assualt? The Ultras, well they're just at the bottom of the list, because they're evil, unremarkable, space marines. Hardly. Also Guilliman was a bully, molesting his brothers to make it swallow his Codex by force, overcoming the rude dude, Actually no. The only part of the Codex that was mandatory was the size thing, which everybody was being hit by. Adopting the organizatioal aspects appeared to be optional. because -due they're lack of faghts during the heresy (how suspicious) and the scourging- The Ultramarines did not lack fights during the Scouring. They made up half the Marines in the field and helped spearhead the attack on the Iron Warriors. The Deathwatch rulebook even says that the Imperium would have fallen without them. they were the largest legion, and managed to make his geneseed almost mandatory to found a new chapter. Actually no. That appears to be more the High Lords descision due to the Ultramairnes purity. Nothing of that is great, just dirty, there is no honor in this, nor glory, just greed. Shame on you, Guilliman! Hardly. Some of the stuff you put out is deliberately misinterpreted or just plain false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 But the Ultramarines fighting through the equivalent of 40K's Pearl Harbor/Battle for Britain/911/Ardennes Offensive isn't heroic at all? Calth was comparable to Istvaan in intensity, why is that unimpressive? The Siege is by far my favorite battle, but Calth is in the top 5. Do not put words in my mouth. '?' This is a question mark. It designates when another person is inquiring something that would require an answer. Which you have yet to provide. Putting words in your mouth would be me saying: You don't think the Ultramarines fighting at Calth was heroic. Notice the period at the end of the statement. It implies definity, which I did not put at the end of the original question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Something everyone needs to keep in mind is that this is a very subjective discussion, not least because the criteria for "greatest" varies from member to member. Also, the medium of text is one that has difficulty in portraying the full message, so members' intents aren't always clearly discernible. Before anyone replies in the heat of the moment, take a step back and think about what the other person might be saying (i.e., don't assume the worst). Carrying on a spirited debate is always fun, but let's keep in constructive and friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Too true. In my opinion, I think the greatest was easily Sanguinius because we are told this is so over and over... in fact he's so great he's perfectly capable of hiding his greatness behind humility. The rest crow at each other or chase personal agendas. Seriously. The Imperium thinks this is true ergo it IS true. They out-vote us, after all. How many universal holidays are there for the lesser primarchs? Perfect sacrifice for the Imperium is impossible to top and he knew it was coming. A guy throws himself on a grenade to save his platoon. Who's the greatest? The radio operator? The guy with the saw? No, the guy that saved them. A meteor is gonna hit earth, who's the hero, Ben Aflec..? Nooo... It's Willis. Stop making this into a favourate primarch thang or a who had the biggest silver spoon thing. Sanguinius was perfect. It's like asking who was the greatest historical figure. Many people would say Caesar or Napoleon or Charlemagne or something.. but it was Jesus that had the greatest impact and was therefore the 'greatest'. (While I personally don't believe he existed, that's not the point as neither does Sanguinius). The overall effect is what matters. Sanguinius galvanised the galaxy of mankind for mankind and his memory lives on. err... carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 World Eaters, Luna Wolves. Ultras were (and are) just pretty guys. Space Wolves were great too, but they got trolled by Horus so they're not in the top. Ultramarines are, amongst the loyal legiones, one of the less greatest, because almost any other loyal legion surpasses them in almost everything but maybe logistic, but let's leave the Ultravanillas for the last ones. How did every other loyal legion surpass them in everything? I was not aware that the White Scars surpassed the Ultramarines in ship boarding actions, or the Fists surpassed them in fast assualt? The Ultras, well they're just at the bottom of the list, because they're evil, unremarkable, space marines. Hardly. Also Guilliman was a bully, molesting his brothers to make it swallow his Codex by force, overcoming the rude dude, Actually no. The only part of the Codex that was mandatory was the size thing, which everybody was being hit by. Adopting the organizatioal aspects appeared to be optional. because -due they're lack of faghts during the heresy (how suspicious) and the scourging- The Ultramarines did not lack fights during the Scouring. They made up half the Marines in the field and helped spearhead the attack on the Iron Warriors. The Deathwatch rulebook even says that the Imperium would have fallen without them. they were the largest legion, and managed to make his geneseed almost mandatory to found a new chapter. Actually no. That appears to be more the High Lords descision due to the Ultramairnes purity. Nothing of that is great, just dirty, there is no honor in this, nor glory, just greed. Shame on you, Guilliman! Hardly. Some of the stuff you put out is deliberately misinterpreted or just plain false. Ignore him, Gree. He's entitled to say this, not to be taken seriously. Something everyone needs to keep in mind is that this is a very subjective discussion, not least because the criteria for "greatest" varies from member to member. Also, the medium of text is one that has difficulty in portraying the full message, so members' intents aren't always clearly discernible. Before anyone replies in the heat of the moment, take a step back and think about what the other person might be saying (i.e., don't assume the worst). Carrying on a spirited debate is always fun, but let's keep in constructive and friendly. This. Why not focus on why you think your chapter (in your opinion) is the greatest, not why others are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Calth was comparable to Istvaan in intensity, why is that unimpressive? The Siege is by far my favorite battle, but Calth is in the top 5. Very true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 any people view Sanguinius as perfect but deep down something dark was brewing, suppressing all those emotions and trying to be perfect was having an adverse effect on him, something to do with his psychic powers I'd imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Either that or all his pretty boy preening in the mirror was taking a toll. "Oh but i must be able to keep these looks, i must find the source of oil of olay!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 You know, we could just cut this short by saying that the greatest legion is the Black Legion - because unlike the others it's still a legion. (Obviously there is always the possible exception of the Alpha Legion, because we don't know whether they're unified or divided, loyal or traitorous, a collective hallucination or Squats in disguise etc. etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 any people view Sanguinius as perfect but deep down something dark was brewing, suppressing all those emotions and trying to be perfect was having an adverse effect on him, something to do with his psychic powers I'd imagine. Ahh, now that's the thing in a nutshell... All mankind has something dark brewing inside, especially when stressed. He just didn't let it stop him being, well... the good son. The whole man vs chaos thing is the 40k metaphor for man vs himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Why not focus on why you think your chapter (in your opinion) is the greatest, not why others are not. Yes, it should always have been a discussion as to "what consitutes the greatest Chapter/Legion and why you think XXX have the traits that qualifies". A word on "Greatest", once and for all! I would like to point out something, whilst not being off topic, is dangerous as could be inciting another silly "Ultramarines-take over". This is not my intention Mods, I am merely trying to address a difference of opinion and try and smooth things over from both sides. If I done bad in steering the topic this way, I accept any associated disciplinary action with good grace. Likewise, I will not participate in a debate regarding "Ultra-hate", "Ultra-Whine" or whatever if this so stems from this post. I said before in this thread, "greatest" in the eyes of the Emperor meant taking the most worlds in the cleanest manner and a whole host of other things like loyality and morality (his morality), and the Imperium acting on his behalf felt the greatest Legion/Chapter in that regard was the Ultramarines. That in no way reflects who the Emperor or Imperium felt the greatest Primarch was, whether he or them were correct or even whether the "greatest" consitues who were the best fighters, most noble, fierce, honest or whatever. The Space Wolves are certainly fiercer than other Legions, but did this make them supieror? Nope. The Ultramarines being referred to "greatest" is a short hand way of saying they are the collection of attributes the Imperium believes is the greatest. So really, all the anti-Ultramarines feelings towards this notion of them being consider "greater" than other Chapters is actually sourced from an mis-understood quote and snow-balled from there. If people really want to consider what is great, they have to remember context. To the High Lords of Terra and the Imperium, the Ultramarines are the greatest because they fulfill the role of Astartes in the most desired manner and have the most influence on the Astartes as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 bravo! :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Either that or all his pretty boy preening in the mirror was taking a toll. "Oh but i must be able to keep these looks, i must find the source of oil of olay!!" "Dont hate me cause I am beautiful..." Legion of Doom was the greatest. Maybe the Bushwhackers and The British Bulldogs after that. Prolly throw in the Mantis Warriors and Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat just for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I said before in this thread, "greatest" in the eyes of the Emperor meant taking the most worlds in the cleanest manner and a whole host of other things like loyality and morality (his morality), and the Imperium acting on his behalf felt the greatest Legion/Chapter in that regard was the Ultramarines. That in no way reflects who the Emperor or Imperium felt the greatest Primarch was, whether he or them were correct or even whether the "greatest" consitues who were the best fighters, most noble, fierce, honest or whatever. The Space Wolves are certainly fiercer than other Legions, but did this make them supieror? Nope. The Ultramarines being referred to "greatest" is a short hand way of saying they are the collection of attributes the Imperium believes is the greatest. So really, all the anti-Ultramarines feelings towards this notion of them being consider "greater" than other Chapters is actually sourced from an mis-understood quote and snow-balled from there. If people really want to consider what is great, they have to remember context. To the High Lords of Terra and the Imperium, the Ultramarines are the greatest because they fulfill the role of Astartes in the most desired manner and have the most influence on the Astartes as a whole. This needs to be stickied, sig'd and generally told to everyone. It is the best description/explanation of the Ultramarines I have seen to date. Especially the italicized section! Spot on mate, bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 To the High Lords of Terra and the Imperium, the Ultramarines are the greatest because they fulfill the role of Astartes in the most desired manner and have the most influence on the Astartes as a whole. This needs to be stickied, sig'd and generally told to everyone. It is the best description/explanation of the Ultramarines I have seen to date. Especially the italicized section! Spot on mate, bravo! I agree. This logic jibes completely. In fact, in The First Heretic, Lorgar notes that, of all the aspects of the Emperor that each Primarch mirrors, Guilliman has the Emperor's soul. To this end, his Legion would, and does, follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Cheers for the support. I understand why people don't like to be told their Chapter/Legion is inferior, after all you chose the Space Wolves or Iron Warriors because their unique flavours are what you consider to be great. I just think the whole "Ultramarines are the Greatest Chapter" thing was taken out of context in the early days and spiralled out of control through chinese whispers-like Internet discussion. Back in 2nd edition, no-one cared the Ultramarines were toted as "the Greatest" because people knew the context. It's not that people don't get the context now, it's rather the internet has allowed a small proportion of people who missed the context to colour the attitudes of others, which spread like a virus. I believe it helps to look at the whole thing from a literary perspective, rather than a GW company statement perspective. And ignore hyperbole statements like those in WD which are there to promote something (the infamous "Ward article"), as all it was was just that; business promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Well done Idaho you've hit the nail on the head there, people read some person opinion on the Ultramarines and then take it for fact and then the Ultrahate stuff spirals out of control... From an in-universe view the Greatest legion would be the Luna Wolves and we all know why they were regarded so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Although I've been on non-Ultra end of most Ultra vs. whatever arguments, I have to agree with Idaho. The Ultras are THE model Astartes and while every legion and chapter has their strengths and weaknesses, the Ultras encompass what the High Lords and perhaps the Emperor are looking for with Space Marines. I also agree with shatter regarding Sanguinius. Beautifully done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 For the record; just so people know I'm wholly on the side that Sanguinius was the "best" Primarch, despite being an Ultras fan. He really is an Angel! He should have been the Warmaster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 For the record; just so people know I'm wholly on the side that Sanguinius was the "best" Primarch, despite being an Ultras fan. He really is an Angel! He should have been the Warmaster... And also just for the record we all know that "Magnus was weak, Magnus was a fool". He most certainly wasn't the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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