The Son of Russ Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 WhY not the wolves? do you mean not Russ or not Horus? Anyway the title is misleading, if it is a primarch bout then horus would definately be at the top, with people like magnus, russ and sanguinius would be trailing close second. And dont just rage hate primarchs. You havent even got arguments even for each primarch, and clearly are bias towards certain ones. You put the only two primarchs that landed on a civilised world, given time to home their skills before their father arrived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Rathul Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Hmmm, in that case, it would be the Imperial Fists, second only to that of the Luna Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 It is indeed subjective... I think the Ultramarines are indeed very good at logistics. Are they efficient at recruitment? I don't know... They may have recruited more people but that does not make them more efficient, on another but related note some chapters may have chosen to recruit less than they could have done. I'm pretty sure one of the Dark Angels books goes on about how they were able to reduce training period to two years. Now was this standard marine training that all legions had or did legion training vary a lot? How long did other legions take? What quality of soldier did they produce? I would also put forward that a number of legions were very good at tactics and stratergy and while RG might be up there he might also not be the best... and again as I say most worlds/least casualties means little as that depends on the situation. So I'm not having a go at your belief that RGs blue boys = the greatest but that the facts to back up such claims mean little in such a vague background... the same goes for all the legions. I don't think "efficient recruitment" is an achievement that merrits a top spot among the Legions. However, what does is conquering worlds the fastest, conquering the highest total of worlds, conquering the worlds and integrating them into the Imperium as some of the most productive and loyal worlds, and suffering the fewest casualties while doing so. Those are some pretty solid achievements, and they can hardly be put down to circumstances or favourable conditions such as "longer active time". And this is only looking at the Great Crusade. While the Luna Wolves' favourable achievements basically ended after the Great Crusade, the loyalist Legions continued to achieve greath things for the Imperium during the Horus Heresy and the Scouring (unless you want to purely count victories/kills regardless of alignment). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominicus Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 If you want to count purely on victories and kills alone, the Luna Wolves would be considered the greatest amongst the Legionnes Astartes pre-Heresy. However, the Ultramarines did do the best job of leaving newly-compliant worlds with good government structure and set them with trade routes and such. So it would be a tie between Ultras and Horus' lot for pre-Heresy. Post-Heresy, Ultras win hands-down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Those are some pretty solid achievements, and they can hardly be put down to circumstances or favourable conditions". Incorrect data is not sufficient. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I am not sure what you mean. Those achievements are all canon, in case that was what you were questioning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I am not sure what you mean. Those achievements are all canon, in case that was what you were questioning. No we don't have enough information on the great crusade to say what the circumstances were for most/any of the legions. Yes we know X did that and had a battle against Y put that is like looking at a single thread from a tapestry. For example.. lets just use the Ultramarines as an example and the Word Bearers as another (the facts I'm giving here are not meant to be the actual facts but a what if scenario if you like.) Ultramarines got lots of planets... but went into an area of space on their own which had lots of human planets compared to the word bearers that had few planets and most of them belonged to the vast gribbles of grulon VI... not only that but the Dark Angels happened to be in the area. Which legion would you expect to get more planets overall and which legion would you expect to be able to get the most to become compliant without the use of force? I don't mean to lessen the achivements of any legion but they were all good at different things and we don't know about circumstances. Now we could assume that circumstances averaged out over the period of the great crusade but that may not be right. What I'm saying is we would need to know where each legion was required to travel how many planets were on the way, how many of them were human, how high enemy concentrations were and so on... we lack this information. You got the most worlds... good for you so what? You made some of the most stable words (well assuming that this isn't just because you took over more worlds... then yes this is a good point for the UMs no doubt...)... Although you could say Lorgars founding of the Imperial Cult has actually over time provided a greater glue because of how it developed... without faith I think the current Imperium would be a lot weaker. So this isn't a dig at the UMs becaue it applies just as much to the victories of Horus, The Lion and Russ with the tally of victories... and who knows what else this could be applied to. We need more data to claim this information is significant in terms of who is the greatest legion... if there is such a thing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I do think that the way the achievements of the Ultramarines are described can be directly attributed to how they were dealing with warfare, and not to favourable conditions. At least those are the reasons given in the descriptions. But I would also say that we should assume similar conditions and battlefields for all the Legtions, and should not assume that one of them simply got extremely difficult worlrds or only got very easy worlds. This is how the fast progress of the Ultramarines is explained: "Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system. Once a world was safe he could move on, leaving behind enough advisers to ensure that industry would be created, trading routes set up with the Imperium, and government directed towards the prosperity of the people. In this way the Ultramarines could conquer worlds faster than any other Space Marine Legion." - 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12 I took that to mean that the Ultramarines were not faster at defeating the opposing forces of a world, but because of the way they organised defenses and trade routes were able to continue onwards and never had to wait for supplies or double back to defend an already liberated but helpless world against an alien raid, which other Legions might have had to put up with. Either way, they are not said to have been faster due to favourable conditions. The "liberated more worlds than any other Legion" is not explained in detail, but the greater rate of progress likely had to do with that. The quality of the liberated worlds is explained though: "where some of his brother Primarchs left a trail of death and destruction in their wake, Roboute brought peace and fresh prosperity. Every world the Ultramarines liberated rapidly took its place amongst those loyal to the Imperium, and Guilliman's genius for planning campaigns ensured that the planet's population and industry suffered the minimum amount of collateral damage." - Index Astartes Ultramarines It did non "just so happened" that the worlds that were liberated by the Ultramarines would be loyal and productive worlds, it is attributed to the approach of the Ultramarines and the way theywere handling the worlds they conquered. That the Ultramarines Legion suffered fewer casualties than any other Legtion is attributed directly to "Guilliman's tactical expertise" (5th ed. C:SM, p. 13), so that can hardly be dismissed as "possibly circumstantial" either. The background has not really been all that ambiguous about why the Ultramarines had been such a successful Legion. You can say that Guilliman had a very favourable upbringing, if you want. That is certainly true. But at the moment he was given the command over a Space Marine Legion and sent out to conquer the stars, he had essentially the same assets as the other Legions. Some Legions (like the Emperor's Children or the Thousand Sons) were unfortunate and had some problems. I guess they would not have a shot at being "the greatest" Legion then, would they? You can say "they could have done so great, if...". But they didn't. We can have a different discussion about which Primarch or gene-seed, given an optimal number of troops and the best equipment, would have the most potential. But I think we are looking at the history of the Great Crusade, and if it was up to me also at the history of the Horus Heresy and the Scouring, and decide which of the historical, now long gone, Space Marine Legions was the greatest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2649922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 The qualifier of what "Greatest" means is variable though. If an Imperial view of greatest is needed, the consideration is possibly for those Legions that won a great many victories and worlds, plus how they did it and how well they get on with out Imperial institutions. But that might just be the official line, we might have elements of the populace considering greatest to be those Legions which are just the damn most ferocious and fearsome, for example. Planet taking seems to be a grand qualifier but the way the Lunar Wolves and Horus were lauded it doesn't seem to be the main priority amongst the Imperial common opinion. Victory and glory seems to trump a race for worlds, which to me does seem logical as it takes into account that not all wars took planets, some were extermination or just on a different scale. There is no denying the Emperor believed the Ultramarines to be amongst his best because they had so many traits he fostered and approved in his Crusade, but I don't believe he thought them his greatest. I believe the Emperor valued the Lunar Wolves, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels (and their Primarchs) just as highly, and likely others also. Just to point out, being considered "Greatest" by the Imperium does not make you superior to other Legions. It just means that particular Legion is well appreciated for it's attributes by the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2650199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 That the Ultramarines Legion suffered fewer casualties than any other Legtion is attributed directly to "Guilliman's tactical expertise" (5th ed. C:SM, p. 13), so that can hardly be dismissed as "possibly circumstantial" either. This isn't the Codex that says the Dark Angels want to be Ultramarines? However this brings up a good point in where do we make a distinction between primarch and legion. Also and I realsie we have an evolving world in our hands but shouldn't supply routes and so on be managed by some admin group? Also it could be that the Imperial army under Guillimans command took horrible damage (I don't think this is how he would fight a war personally). This is what I mean lots of variables. Also if he has twice as many marines and applied twice as many to the same situation as another legion then he should take less casualties... I think the Ultramarines were spread out and son were some other legions but we don't have much info on how many men were positioned where. My position with the GC-HH period is that everything you have been told is a lie! or is it? and if it isn't do you know ther context it is in I do not doubt the Ultramarines did great things, but I don't doubt that other legions did great things. As for Guilliman I will admit I don't like him, in the same way I don't like Russ (but for different reasons). For those two it is more a matter of personallity than abillity, while I dislike Lorgar because I see him as weak and a bad leader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2650482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 This isn't the Codex that says the Dark Angels want to be Ultramarines? You mean the comment made by Matt Ward? Not actually part of the Ultramarines fluff? The Ultramarines started off with the same amount of Astartes as the other legions, it was just Guillimans skills that allowed them to grow at a much faster rate than other legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2650490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 That the Ultramarines Legion suffered fewer casualties than any other Legtion is attributed directly to "Guilliman's tactical expertise" (5th ed. C:SM, p. 13), so that can hardly be dismissed as "possibly circumstantial" either. This isn't the Codex that says the Dark Angels want to be Ultramarines? The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines does not really say that, even though it can be read into one of the statements made there. I could have cited the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines for the same quote (and that does not even include that offending passage from the 5th Edition Codex, in case you are wondering), but I have learned that some people dismiss the 2nd Edition sources as outdated. I personally prefer the 2nd Edition sources as the "original" sources. However this brings up a good point in where do we make a distinction between primarch and legion. Also and I realsie we have an evolving world in our hands but shouldn't supply routes and so on be managed by some admin group? Also it could be that the Imperial army under Guillimans command took horrible damage (I don't think this is how he would fight a war personally). This is what I mean lots of variables. Also if he has twice as many marines and applied twice as many to the same situation as another legion then he should take less casualties... I think the Ultramarines were spread out and son were some other legions but we don't have much info on how many men were positioned where. You are coming up with issues that are never hinted at in the background. Maybe the Word Bearers had liberated the fewest worlds, but maybe one of those worlds had hosted a doomsday device that could have destroyed the entire galaxy, making that the mots important conquest of all? Who knows? Perhaps fabrications should not be the basis for background discussions, and we should stick to the available information for our conclusions. Also, this is the entire passage about the Ultramarines casualty rates, with a bit of context: "The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and its forward base relocated to Macragge. (...) [Guilliman] led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. (...) It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to the thoroughness of their organisation, the Ultramarines were able to receive constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. because of their strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion." - 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 13 The tactical expertise was said to have been one of the causes that made the Ultramarines grow into the largest Legion. The low casualties were not a result of that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2650556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Also, this is the entire passage about the Ultramarines casualty rates, with a bit of context: "The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and its forward base relocated to Macragge. (...) [Guilliman] led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south. (...) It was not long before the Ultramarines Legion received its first influx of warriors born and bred on Macragge. Thanks to the thoroughness of their organisation, the Ultramarines were able to receive constant recruits throughout the Great Crusade. because of their strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion." - 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 13 The tactical expertise was said to have been one of the causes that made the Ultramarines grow into the largest Legion. The low casualties were not a result of that. I would also add that that validates the point over efficient recruitment; "the throuroughness of their organisation," etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2651283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I thought it had been hinted at that a lot of numbers the Ultras had were handed to them by from the missing chapters. But their recruitment methods were good Horus was beaten 1 to1 by Russ and had to be saved by the the Big E ( someone said he had not been beat) I think each chapter had its own role and purpose and greatness depends on each persons view. But I would say GW view is the Ultras are the best(the reason for all the hate). And it was the lunar wolves and the ultras in the be Big E's view Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2656732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 You are coming up with issues that are never hinted at in the background. Maybe the Word Bearers had liberated the fewest worlds, but maybe one of those worlds had hosted a doomsday device that could have destroyed the entire galaxy, making that the mots important conquest of all? Who knows? Perhaps fabrications should not be the basis for background discussions, and we should stick to the available information for our conclusions. That point being that sometimes the available information isn't enough. Sometimes the valid conclusion is not enough data, significance can't be confirmed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2656814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 "They liberated the most worlds" is a pretty straight forward statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2656862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagbenektelse Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Just to toss another hat in the ring...Perturabo had a legion that was mandated to serve as garrison forces for captured planets while still maintaining forward momentum during the crusade. Also, being designated as the greatest at siege craft means you are very, very good at breaking sieges( that thing where you chase people back to their strongest fortification, tear it down, and THEN kill everyone in it, that is pretty close to being a definition of tough battle). So their reputation was a group that worked understrength to assault the toughest nuts on a planet. To move further down the timeline, the iron cage was just the most prevalent example of the other legions having to fight tooth and nail to dig them out of imperial space. Storm of Chaos has a warsmith( subordinate to perturabo) who was integral in designing a fortification that was used as a geneseed repository(arguably one of the most important resources in the galaxy i would think). Additionally, the iron warriors have a ridiculous homebase in Medrengard, the ability and inclination to make new marines, and arguably the originators of the Obliterator cult. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2656928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Do I have to quote the line from Horus Rising :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2656932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 "They liberated the most worlds" is a pretty straight forward statement. Not really. That is merely a quantitive statement, not a qualitive one. It doesn't at all take into account the hardships faced during said liberations. One legion might have "liberated" huge numbers of already pretty much compliant worlds by just showing up, while another might have fought tooth and nail against overwhelming enemies to "liberate" only two. So unless there is more fluff about WHAT and HOW it was done, that statement is meaningless as far as comparing the legions' mertis goes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2657073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Only if you actually believe that the authors did not mean anything by that statement, or that they could honestly have meant that they had liberated the most worlds, but they just so happened to have fought only against weak opponents. None of which is very likely, so complains like these are easy to dismiss. There is absolutely no reason at all to believe that the thousands of worlds that the Ultramarines Legion liberated were easier to take than the thousands of worlds taken by any other Legion. Furthermore, we are actually given reasons for why the Ultramarines Legion could liberate the most worlds. The reasons given are not "that they had no challenges like all the other Letgions". The reaons given are that Guilliman's chief talents were in warfare, and as a specific example we are told that due to his methods for organising supply lines and defenses for the worlds he liberated the Ultramarines were able to conquer worlds faster than any other Legion. So we can actually attribute their success to the way they approached warfare, and not to any luck factors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2657437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagbenektelse Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Of course the appearance seems to be that the ultramar sector was relatively civilized. The nature of the beast is that if one has to completely level a world, no matter what the skill with beauracracy, that talent doesnt even come into play. Also, when the order from Horus came, they were able to completely muster most of their legion on "home turf"(calth) remarkably quickly and easily. Also, of course the reason given for their conquests is going to be something complimentary. I think the authors are contractually obligated not to say any one legion is just awful and really should have taken home ec instead of gym class. The Ultramarine's talent is listed as supply lines and administration, the luna wolves are said to be all or nothing types, iron warriors are siege breakers, blood angels and world eaters are close combat, and so on and so forth. The reason the ultramarines are probably not going to be counted by most as the best legion is out of all of the superhuman legions of warriors available, their success as an organization is credited to fine logistics and administration...kind of like a beauracrat. In the trench I really, really would like to have the swordmaster, knight, the guy who knew how to dig a very good trench, or hell even the psychopath with an ax(I'm look at Russ and Angron here) rather than the aide de campe with a penchant for civil engineering. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2658211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 How about the 'aide de campe/civil engineer' and his 199,999 friends?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2658245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Of course, you could evaluate the Legions based on which Primarch you think was a cool guy, or which Legion did a cool thing at some point. Or you could look at what each Legion had accomplished. Someone may think that the Death Guard is super cool. But if he is being fair, then he will probably have to admitt that the Legion did not accomplish as much as the Imperial Fists. Just to give an example. Since the Death Guard likely conquered places the Fists (or any other legion for that matter) wouldn't have the stomach to even look at, that makes them super cool indeed. Anyway, greatest legions - for Chaos, it's the Black Legion, coming back from the brink of destruction to make the other legions (maybe except the AL) heel to them. For the Imperium, it's the Fists, the BAs and the Scars, for fighting - and winning - the crucial battle alongside our Lord, the immortal Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2658361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Also, when the order from Horus came, they were able to completely muster most of their legion on "home turf"(calth) remarkably quickly and easily. Were they really? The Horus Heresy apparently lasted for about seven years. The Ultramarines only learned about the treaon while the Imperial Palace was already under siege, so at the end of the Heresy. So they had been ordered to Calth at some point during those seven years, and were then attacked by the Word Bearers near the end. The reason the ultramarines are probably not going to be counted by most as the best legion is out of all of the superhuman legions of warriors available, their success as an organization is credited to fine logistics and administration...kind of like a beauracrat. In the trench I really, really would like to have the swordmaster, knight, the guy who knew how to dig a very good trench, or hell even the psychopath with an ax(I'm look at Russ and Angron here) rather than the aide de campe with a penchant for civil engineering. It is a misconception that the Ultramarines are not potent fighters. But it is an understandable one, seeing as how their logistical feats and the writing of the Codex Astartes are more prominently praised in the background. But the Ultramarines actually come from a very martial culture, not unlike spartans. They are by no means a Legion of administrators. They are highly disciplined and professional soldiers, who have been trained even before becoming Space Marine aspirants. Weak newborns on Macragge are left in the wild to die, while every other Child has to attend harsh military schools from the ages 6 to 14, which not everyone survives. At the end of that carreer they can be chosen to become Ultramarine aspirants. But these traits are admittedly not described as much in the background, so I couldn't fault anyone for thinking otherwise. Guilliman has also allegedly defeated another Primarch in combat, and quite easily at that, but the report claiming that has been questioned by many sources, including representatives of the Ultramarines. Guilliman was eventually struck down in combat against "giant serpent bodied, four armed, four poison blade wielding" Fulgrim, but only by receiving a small wound by a poisoned blade. That he was not utterly demolished, and that Fulgrim was nowhere to be seen after the fight, might indicate that he was holding his own pretty well in that fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2658435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 But the Ultramarines actually come from a very martial culture, not unlike spartans... Weak newborns on Macragge are left in the wild to die Of all things Spartan to characterise the Ultras, GW must have picked the one the least exclusive to Spartans and the most nonsensical on a civilised world so freaking far out in the future - even the real Spartans had ways of improving the baby's health while it was still inside the womb. And heck, even if all that technology and military infrastructure cannot whip some weaklings up into decent soldiers - something the Imperium will never have enough of - they can simply be servitorised. For a culture that's supposed to epitomise efficiency, leaving weaker kids to die is damnably wasteful - and just bad writing. And I am genuinely curious what counts as 'the wild' on Macragge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/4/#findComment-2658726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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