Captain Idaho Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 For the record; just so people know I'm wholly on the side that Sanguinius was the "best" Primarch, despite being an Ultras fan. He really is an Angel! He should have been the Warmaster... And also just for the record we all know that "Magnus was weak, Magnus was a fool". He most certainly wasn't the best. Magnus? Isn't that quote from Abaddon talking about Horus? Not sure what that has to do with Sanguinius? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2674222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Sanguinius is not the best. He was too humble to conduct such campaign. Not to mention his dark side. He would be just as exploitable as Horus was if not more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2674231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 See I think people have mis-understood just what his "dark side" is. He just get's rage filled but I've never read anything of him turning into a berserker or callous fighter with collateral damage to children and puppies. Think of his anger as a holy fury. But I do agree with your point on Sanguinius being so humble. But that could fly in his favour as he wouldn't be too proud to have other Primarchs help him. As for whether he was corruptable? Nah! The Chaos Gods tried it, Horus tried it and it got them no-where! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2674252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I don't think he could be Warmaster, he doesn't seem able or prepared to do what would be necessary. He took each and every loss of his warriors to heart and whilst that is commendable that is not something the Warmaster jobs needs. As well as being charismatic you need to be ruthless and understand the human/astartes cost of the Great Crusade, it seems Sanguinius did not quite grasp that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2674259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Dorn was the humblest and most honest Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2674548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 For the record; just so people know I'm wholly on the side that Sanguinius was the "best" Primarch, despite being an Ultras fan. He really is an Angel! He should have been the Warmaster... And also just for the record we all know that "Magnus was weak, Magnus was a fool". He most certainly wasn't the best. Magnus? Isn't that quote from Abaddon talking about Horus? Not sure what that has to do with Sanguinius? :fakenopic: Probably yes, but I like to apply it to Magnus - as one loyal to Ahriman. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2675810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Dorn was the humblest and most honest Primarch. He was also an elitist git who sowed dissention wherever he roamed. The number of other Primarchs he deliberately went out of his way to offend and goad rivals Guilliman's tally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2675823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Or we could go with official fluff, accoring to which Dorn was held in high esteem by most of his brothers, except for a few who resented his closenes to the Emperor. Off the top of my head I can think of three Primarchs who had issues with Dorn (Perturabo, Curze, Alpharius). And in none of those cases it can really be blamed on him. There were Primarchs who almost did not get along with anyone. It seems odd to diss a Prmarch who is said to be held in high esteem by most, just because he had some notable differences with a few Primarchs who would later turn to Chaos because of the very issues that were the reason for them not getting along. Of course, the same could be said in regard to Guilliman and the other Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2675912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 He plays Chaos, Legatus. To him virtues like honesty, loyalty, and friendship are bad things. If Dorn being honest with his brothers at all times makes him wrong then I dont want to be right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 He plays Chaos, Legatus. To him virtues like honesty, loyalty, and friendship are bad things. If Dorn being honest with his brothers at all times makes him wrong then I dont want to be right. Honesty at all times isn't a good thing. I don't like Dorn because of his compulsive seek for penance. It results in fruitless efforts like Pain Glove or Iron Cage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeddon Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 To the High Lords of Terra and the Imperium, the Ultramarines are the greatest because they fulfill the role of Astartes in the most desired manner and have the most influence on the Astartes as a whole. Yeah I'm jumping on late to this but here it is anyway. I think this example is problematic. Are you saying that the Ultramarines are the greatest because the politicians say so? The high lords of terra (just like everyone else) have their own agendas. Their praise of the Ultramarines only implies that the UM's serve their purpose the best. Also, saying that the UM's are the greatest in the eyes of the imperium is an incorrect statement. There are several accounts throughout 40k lore that single out different societies revering one primarch/chapter over all others. Looking at my avatar you can see plainly which legion I prefer. Do I think they are the greatest? Yes. Do I care if you agree? No. The Space Wolves display the things that I believe reflect the best things about humanity and I am more than willing to accept that someone else can see the same things in the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels, the Imperial Fists or any other legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I do believe you missed my point as your argument against my statement actually uses my own statement! :cuss The Space Wolves display the things that I believe reflect the best things about humanity and I am more than willing to accept that someone else can see the same things in the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels, the Imperial Fists or any other legion. This is pretty much what I was saying! Everyone has their own favourites and the people who say the Ultramarines are greatest are biased; I.E. the Imperial "line". When we read these statements that the "Ultramarines are greatest" people get upset because it doesn't coincide with their own view and essentially makes them "wrong" but they forget these Games Workshop statements are spouted from a perspective of the Imperium. (incidently, the Codex books are generally themed to be written from an Imperial persective). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeddon Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 In that case I'm glad to agree with you, lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I think this example is problematic. Are you saying that the Ultramarines are the greatest because the politicians say so? Well, the Space Marines are an official Imperial Institution, with a specific purpose. So it is feasible that some Chapters are somewhat closer to that purpose than others. Also, that purpose was laid down in the Codex Astartes by a Space Marine Primarch (probably in collaborarion with other Primarchs and Imperial officials), so it is not as if a Chapter has to try to cater to a specific current day politician to be recognised to do a good job. Also, saying that the UM's are the greatest in the eyes of the imperium is an incorrect statement. There are several accounts throughout 40k lore that single out different societies revering one primarch/chapter over all others. "(...) As fate would have it, the Ultramarines were therefor largely untouched by the fighting of the Horus Heresy. Other loyal Space Marine Legion had lost thousands of troops during the fighting, and half of the original Legions had sided with Horus. As a result the number of Space Marines left was very few, yet never were they more needed. Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines. Always the largest Legion, the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desparate effort to stem the tide of the unrest. The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a time of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rate that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few were the systems where their heroism went unnoticed." - 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 13 There are worlds that have legends of Leman Russ and his wolf warriors. There are worlds that tell legends of noble Sanguinius. But the deeds of Guilliman and the Ultramarines are known almost throughout the entire Imperium. That was in part due to fate, as the Ultramarines simple had the manpower to fulfill that role during the scouring. But then it was the same fatefull circumstances that had them miss out on the Battle for Terra. And one could say that it was not so much fate, but due to a ploy by Horus. Also, Guilliman's recruitment system seemed to have helped their efforts a great deal, so it can be at least in part attributed to their own traits. So it is not really fallacious to say that in the view of the majority of the Imperium the Ultramarines Legion was the most legendary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 and this is the same Imperium that believes you have to pray before flicking a light switch... Capt. Idaho has a sound grasp on this subject. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Its not up for debate. No Legion did more for the Imperium than the Ultramarines, its fact. Now whether or not the things they did were the most glorious is relative, and depends on what a player finds glorious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Its not up for debate. No Legion did more for the Imperium than the Ultramarines, its fact. Now whether or not the things they did were the most glorious is relative, and depends on what a player finds glorious. Did more for the Imperium then Ultramarines? I'd imagine the Blood Angels, Fists and Scars would dispute that......considering without Terra, without the Emperor, there is no Imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 and i could raise the point that without the Wolves and the Dark Angels securing vital worlds on their return to terra, there wouldnt be a imperium for any marines to protect. its easy to forget the vital work when it isnt the more glorious. but, as fun as endless debates are, it would be fruitless. the stance GW has taken has always been of those of the Imperium (fluff wise), and from the Imperium's perspective, none are greater than the Ultramarines. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Its not up for debate. No Legion did more for the Imperium than the Ultramarines, its fact. Now whether or not the things they did were the most glorious is relative, and depends on what a player finds glorious. Did more for the Imperium then Ultramarines? I'd imagine the Blood Angels, Fists and Scars would dispute that......considering without Terra, without the Emperor, there is no Imperium I KNOW you did not just try to explain the importance of the Siege to ME. Considering without an Imperium, Terra is just a planet. They are equal parts of the same whole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2676652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain areias Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I know im probably backtracking this arguement a bit but, to rail against Sanguinius because of his supposed dark side in him is kinda stupid,everyone has a dark side in them, what matters is if you can channel and control it. take for instance the idea of courage and bravery, who is the braver, the person who has doesnt have fears or the person who conquers theres. :) and thats my piece of arguement into this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221218-greatest-legions-of-all/page/7/#findComment-2679832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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